Mini Classifieds

76 Pinto Wagon
Date: 07/08/2020 05:44 pm
front end parts
Date: 03/30/2018 12:48 pm
Ford 2.3 Bellhousing C4/C5 & Torque Converter

Date: 07/08/2022 11:51 pm
1971 Pinto Runabout turn key driver

Date: 07/01/2019 12:23 pm
Pinto in Maine for sail...solid body

Date: 03/07/2017 07:03 pm
WANTED: Skinny Rear Bumper w/o guards for '71 or '72 Pinto Coupe
Date: 04/24/2018 11:45 am
hubcaps

Date: 05/13/2021 05:33 pm
2.3 front sump oil pan
Date: 07/24/2018 03:17 pm
77 Cruising wagon Rear cargo light
Date: 10/02/2017 02:16 pm

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,575
  • Total Topics: 16,267
  • Online today: 2,670
  • Online ever: 2,670 (Today at 01:57:20 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 510
  • Total: 510
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Minilite style wheels, sizing confusion

Started by Flygirl62, August 13, 2013, 12:03:39 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

cossiepinto

Ok, this looks like I'm a stalker now!

I just had a thought:  Your car is a '71-'72, right?  I know the '71, '72, and maybe '73s had different suspension arms, shorter, I believe.  This might change your choices as far as wheel width up front.

Double check with others who have early Pintos to make sure 15x7s will fit ok.  I'm pretty sure they will, but.... 

I had some 13x8 inch Libre racing wheels from a vintage TransAm Pinto, and I tried them on my car (brake rotors not installed), and they fit fine, but I was afraid if I used 15x8s I'd get tire rub somewhere, so I went conservative with 15x7s.  The 13x8s actually came off a '72 TransAm Pinto, but he'd modified the A-arms, probably to '74 and up lengths.

One of the wheel companies I was considering before I bought the Minlites offered to send me a bolted-together mock up wheel to fit to the car to check.  Minilite may also offer this service, too.

cossiepinto

Oh, and I like that baby blue car of yours, by the way.  I always thought it was the best color for the Pinto.

cossiepinto

Flygirl,


I wanted the Pinto to be kind of period-dated, so the Minilites were my first and only serious choice.  I contacted John Targett at JBRITCARS.com.  You can find him by searching for "Minilite USA" pretty easily.


Just looked it up:  the link is www.minilitewheels.us/ .

So the site is still there, even if he's retired.  He's a British fella, quite fun to talk to.


He handled all the process and was a great help.  The wheels cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $250-$300 apiece.


I found that 7 inches was just about as wide as I dared to use, considering backspacing (chassis rub) and outside offset (sticking out from under the fenders).  Mr. Targett and I mulled over the choices we had with the casting dies at Minilite and came up with the specs I posted to you earlier.


This size/configuration of wheel gives you room for 225/50 tire size and no interference with chassis or suspension unless the car is lowered too much in the front (earlier mention, too).  I might have had enough room for 15x8 wheels in back, but I didn't want to have two different sizes of wheels on the car.  I couldn't see any advantage that would have offset the hassle.  Anyway, the tires don't rub and they don't stick out.


I considered 16 inch wheels, which would have given me more room for larger brake rotors, but the ones I have fitted (10.5 inch with Wilwood Dynalite calipers) are plenty big enough.  Again, diminishing returns don't make much sense for larger (and heavier) brake rotors on a car this light.  Besides, 16 inch wheels might have taken away from the "vintage" look even more.


Thanks for your kind words about the front air dam.  A friend and I came up with that idea and he was the one who designed the opening to get more air in to the oil cooler.  The brake ducts break up the front a bit, too.  The dam follows the contour of the original Pinto filler plate that goes between the bumper and grille.  He did a nice job!


I'm adding a pic of the car from the rear, taken the same day I rolled it out to get it rhino-lined.  This will show how well tucked-in the rear tires are...no sticking out!  You can also see the mini quick-change rear end up under there, since the fuel cell isn't installed.


Regards,


Paul

L.D

im in the market for wheels also to you check out the rota rb style they have a 4x108 15x7 not sure about the offset .

Flygirl62

Your car is amazing! You're probably so sick of hearing that, I'm sure, but superlatives have been exhausted.  :-)  You know, I saw your build thread, drooled over it really. Perhaps that's why I got the idea for the Minilites? I think the 15s are a great choice. The air dam is great too, really period it looks to me.

I wonder if I could change the back spacing slightly to tuck the wheels further into the wheel wells of my car? Or perhaps go an inch narrower? Still figuring out how/if wheel width has an effect on backspacing, or if that's only offset...

I also seem to remember a Racer Walsh catalog from way back that listed these wheels for sale, and probably still have it somewhere.

BTW, my car also happens to be lowered, although in the pic it seems lower than it really is, especially in front. I'm re-posting; y'all may well have not seen it.


cossiepinto


Flygirl,


Here is what I wound up with when I ordered my Minilites: 15"x 7" on 4.25" bolt circle with 3 13/16" backspacing and a 2.5" center hole.  I decided on the standard Ford bolt circle to avoid confusion later, should I change my mind or eventually sell the car (No one lives forever).


I did use aftermarket hubs, etc., but they fit the original Ford track width dimensions.  The tires are 225/50-15s.


Here is a picture of the car soon after the wheels and tires went on.  The suspension is at full droop in the pic, but there are other pics of the car in my forum post.  I had cut down springs (9.5") in front and 1" lowering blocks in the rear, and I had no problems with fender clearance.


After installing the engine, I found that the springs and 2" dropped spindles lowered the car too much in front, so I bought some 11" long springs.  The 9 inchers would have been perfect without the dropped spindles, though.


Even with the 9 inch springs and dropped spindles the wheels and tires fit, but there might have been a little fender rub on sharp turns.  With either of the two (not both), I think the car would be fine.


I found a pic of the Pinto in profile, taken the day I took it to get in interior rhino-lined. There's no engine in it, but you can see the fender clearance pretty well.

Flygirl62

Thank you.

Hmmm, now thinking about why I'd want such a large diameter wheel.

So, what I'm getting is that different back spacing dimensions can work on the car, depending on...what?
Fender Clearance?

Is there some spread to stay within? I've heard that the wrong back spacing can reduce wheel bearing life and cause excessive suspension wear.

Srt

i think (not sure) that the stock steel wheels were 5.5" in width.  Back spacing I couldn't say.

i had a set of old school magnesium mini-lites on my '71 that were 13 x 7" and fit beautifully with a 185/70-13 Dunlop SP4 tire.

i later had a set of steel 13" x 7" wheels made that had a 4" back spacing that also fit great. tucked into the wheel well and with the car lowered almost to rock bottom they never exhibited any clearance issues.

the key here, i believe, is height of the assembly taking backspacing into mind.

i never had a tire over 24.5" in height. with 15" or 16" wheels the tire will definately fill up the wheel opening (pinto wheel wells are quite large) but the diameter is critical in that it will determine what size you may be able to use.

i know there are others here that have used the larger diameter wheels/tires successfully. perhaps they will chime in with some more specific dimensions
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

From_Jonah

I'm pretty sure the width is 7. Not. Sure about offset. And the bolt pattern is 4x4.25 (4x108)
1977 wagon - baby blue full restoration project.

1980 wagon - (77 front clip) converted to cruising wagon. (Sold in 2015. Can't find her again.)

Flygirl62

I'm doing a bit of search, also learning more about offset/backspacing, etc. Thinking about replacing the stock 13" steel wheels on my '73 with Minilite-style wheels. Possibly 15" or 16".

What is the width and offset of the stock 13" steel wheel on my '73? And how can I specify the correct aftermarket wheel?

Thank you!