Mini Classifieds

1973 Interior parts wanted
Date: 01/02/2017 11:02 pm
windshield
Date: 04/14/2018 08:53 pm
Rare parts for sale
Date: 09/10/2018 08:38 am
1975 Pinto bumpers
Date: 10/24/2019 01:45 pm
2 liter blocks and heads
Date: 03/28/2018 09:58 am
Rare parts for sale
Date: 09/10/2018 08:38 am
1971 ford pinto items for sale

Date: 08/03/2017 07:40 pm
cam pulley
Date: 05/30/2018 04:56 pm
76 station wagon parts needed.
Date: 03/14/2020 01:52 pm

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,575
  • Total Topics: 16,267
  • Online today: 2,670
  • Online ever: 2,670 (Today at 01:57:20 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 573
  • Total: 573
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

78 Holley 5200 running rich

Started by 74WagonMeadowGreen, December 31, 2011, 11:14:22 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

lugnut

As much as we ALL like to complain about emission testing, in this case it prompted you to get it fixed, which is a good thing.  I still hate smog checks though!

74WagonMeadowGreen

The Pinto passed with flying colors, thank you... it WAS indeed the power valve... it looked like a sieve when held to the light... I have a strong feeling the fuel mileage will improve as well! THANK YOU!!

ToniJ1960

 I will be happy too if it helps let us know. I read you said you completely rebuilt the carb,but you just never know. When you do replace the power valve diaphragm, you can press it down and hold your thumb over a little hole on the bottom of the top half of the carb,its near the edge. I used to have an old one if I still did I could take a picture of it. I can look in a book I have too I think that showed it (petersons guide to the Pinto).


If you hold your finger over that hole after you push t he valve plunger in, the plunger should stay in until you remove your thumb from that hole and let air back in. That way you know its working before you put the top back on.

NM was right too it could be the float or something not cutting off the fuel and raw gas `spilling` into the carb. But its so easy to test the power valve by just adjusting the mixture screw to see if it will get lean enough to cut off. I think you would be more likely to smell strong gas odors if it was spilling.

The last time I redid my carn I just replaced the needle and seat set the float replaced the power valve diaphragm and put it back together with new gaskets. The rest I dont see any reason to mess with. The accelerator pump I can always do later.

74WagonMeadowGreen

Quote from: tonij1960 on January 01, 2012, 06:36:19 PM
If you turn the mixture screw in does it to start to die? If you cant get the mixture lean enough to cut the engine, then,as I was told once, it means theres too much gas getting through the `top half` of the carb. Its always, in my case, been the power enrichment valve diaphragm leaking and not allowing the vacuum to hold the piston up off the valve in the carb. It ran ok but the mileage was pretty bad.

Anyway its an easy test turn the scew in a turn or two or until it starts to sound like its going to quit running. If you cant get it to quit, its probably the power valve diaphragm leaking. If it does idle down get rough and start to die just turn it back out some again. I bet thats it.

The power valve was the ONLY part that was not a correct replacement in my overhaul kit... I didn't think it too critical!! I do now! FANTASTIC suggestion, and the likeliest cause... THANK YOU! I will post a follow-up, hopefully expressing a successful passing of emissions, as well as "normal" running (not so blasted rich)!

NMPinto

2 things worth checking are: Is the float level and fuel pressure correct? If either of these are too high that will
cause rich condition even at idle because if the fuel level in the idle and main circuits is above the design level
you couldn't add enough air though the main and idle air correction jets to compensate. The other is see if you can find the as delivered air, main jet and emulsion tube configuration for the particular carb by tag number if you can to see if it is currently got
the right parts in the right places.

Let us know if that helps.

Phil
71 Brown Runabout 2.0/C4 auto - Mom bought new in 71.
72 Green Runabout 2.0/4 speed - Restored to original.
96 F-250 7.3L Turbo Diesel - Big White Truck!

ToniJ1960

 If you turn the mixture screw in does it to start to die? If you cant get the mixture lean enough to cut the engine, then,as I was told once, it means theres too much gas getting through the `top half` of the carb. Its always, in my case, been the power enrichment valve diaphragm leaking and not allowing the vacuum to hold the piston up off the valve in the carb. It ran ok but the mileage was pretty bad.

Anyway its an easy test turn the scew in a turn or two or until it starts to sound like its going to quit running. If you cant get it to quit, its probably the power valve diaphragm leaking. If it does idle down get rough and start to die just turn it back out some again. I bet thats it.

74WagonMeadowGreen

Holley 5200 setup for my 1978 non-Calif model 2.3:
Does this look correct?
PRIMARY JETS:
Plug  170
tube  05
Main  167
SECONDARY JETS:
Plug  185
tube  04
Main  219
Should the primary have a "larger" tube than the secondary? So far, nothing indicates why I am running so horribly rich... all choke components sparkling clean and working properly, same with carb internals. ?????

bbobcat75

we had that testing in ohio when i lived there, had a  chevy 1500 that would not pass, but a bottle of rubbing alchol in the gas tank and pulled the pcv and laid it to the side and drove in and passed with flying colors, did better then my moms brand new pt crusier, those test are a waste of time!!!
1975 mercury bobcat 2.8 auto
1975 ford pinto - drag car - 2.3l w/t5 trans - project car

dave1987

My 78 was doing the same thing a couple years ago. I never did figure it out though. My dad hollowed out my cat back in the 80s and I think it was the root cause. I four a way to make it pass though. Shoot me a pm if you can't get. it figiured out.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

74WagonMeadowGreen

My 78 Pinto with 2.3 and 4 spd just failed emission testing (required in Colorado). I got readings of HC/ppm of 2000 at 2500 rpm (over 400 is a fail) and CO% of 11.41 (over 1.5 is a fail), not much better at idle... she is running very rich, probably not just a fiddling with the idle air screw if it fails at 2500 rpm, which is set pretty lean now. The car does foul plugs quickly, running on three until it warms up, especially when cold, but does not visibly smoke.  The car has 52,000 original miles. I fully rebuilt my original carb, which shows no real signs of previous tampering. Does anybody know the correct jet specs for the main versus secondary setup, as I cannot guarantee anybody before me may not have accidently swapped the jets. I know the primaries are smaller than the secondaries, according to the book. The choke does appear to be operating correctly, timing is spot-on according to specs. Half the emission parts and all vacuum hoses have been replaced, the egr valve cleaned and tested. The car really seems to run pretty well, once warmed up. Any input regarding possible causes is truly welcome. Thanks!
Don