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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

I KNOW OF A YARD WITH ABOUT 200+ PINTOS AND BOBCATS(NO JOKE) -WHAT DO YOU NEED??

Started by tiny, March 14, 2008, 02:00:12 AM

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dga57

Fred is all over the place on this site... you can hardly miss him.  He posts frequently in the Shout Box.  Scroll down through the shouts until you see his name.  If you click on his name, it will take you to his profile where you can PM him (sent a Personal Message).  I'm sure he'll get back to you in short order.

Dwayne :smile:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

jeff shein


dga57

Quote from: jeff shein on March 18, 2010, 02:01:06 AM
gotta 1978 pinto wagon..2.3 ltr...need accelerator cable or some advice.jeff

Jeff,

This particular thread is over two years old... pretty much dead.  Try posting your request in another topic here.  You may also want to post it in General Pinto Talk or in Your Projects.  Your best bet is probably to contact Fred Morgan.  Odds are, if you post that particular need in one of those threads however, he'll contact you.  He's the "go to" man for Pinto parts of most any description.

Dwayne :smile:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

jeff shein

gotta 1978 pinto wagon..2.3 ltr...need accelerator cable or some advice.jeff

bills72wagon

i'm looking for a 3 piece rubber rear bumper guards on a 1972 pinto wagon please help Bill .....lockoski720@comcast.net

pintoguy77

I guess the best thing to do in that case is camp out near the entrance to the place,a runabout will sleep one,lol.I would,that would be like a trip to Disney for me,only 10 times better

tiny

HEY ALL TINY HERE, ITS MARCH 30 -2007, HECK ITS ABOUT A YEAR SINCE I FIRST POSTED ABOUT THE BIG 200 PLUS PINTO YARD CALLED HOFFERTS. WELL HERE'S THE UPDATED NEWS, THE YARD STARTED SCRAPPING THEIR INVENTORY LAST YEARS WHEN SCRAP WAS SO HIGH. A FRIEND AND I WENT BY THERE JUST 2 WEEKS AGO. YEAH THE YARD IS STILL THERE BUT YOU CAN TELL THEY HAVE CLEANED UP A WHOLE LOT. WHEN WE TRIED TO GET IN, THE LADY SAID SHE REALLY DIDN'T FEEL LIKE OPENING TODAY(IT WAS ABOUT 11AM ON A THURS.). WE DROVE A GOOD HALF OUT OF THE WAY TO THERE AND SHE WOULDN'T LET US IN. IN THE PAST I TOLD YOU ALL THAT I TAKE DONUTS WITH ME AS A BRIBE OR SOMETHING TO EASE HER OVER. WELL THEY DIDN'T WORK THIS TIME(YES I KEPT THEM). I SINCE HAVE 2 OTHER DECENT YARDS, FIRST IS KLINGERS, THEY ARE EAST OF HARRISBURG NOT FAR FROM WHERE ROUTES 78 AND 81 SPLIT. THIS GUY IS A FORD GUY, HE HAS A STRONG FOLLOWING OF MAVERICKS, COMETS, AND PINTOS. I CAN NOT REMEMBER THE TOWN BUT IF YOUR AT A CARLISLE SHOW IT MIGHT BE WORTH A ROAD TRIP UP TO THE YARD. THE OTHER YARD IS NORTH OF ALLENTOWN PA ITS CALLED "YOU PULL AND SAVE" , ITS ON ROUTE 895 IN NEW RINGGOLD PA.  IT IS A VRY LARGE AND WELL ORGANIZED YARD. ALL OF THE OLDER CARS ARE IN THE BACK SECTION DOWN THE HILL AND THERE IS ABOUT 8-10 PINTOS. THIS IS NOT THE FAMOUS HARRYS U-PULL-IT, AND BY THE WAY , HARRYS IS "NOT" WORTH YOUR TIME. HARRYS IS OVERPRICED AND ITS MOSTLY LATE MODEL JUNK. WELL THATS ABOUT IT, I AM ON MY WAY DOWN TO A YARD IN NORTH CAROLINA(NEAR HAVELOCK) TO PICK A CHECKER WAGON CLEAN. GOOD LUCK IN YOUR FINDS, SEE YOU AT CARLISLE, AND GOD BLESS!!!!!!  --TINY

popbumper

Restoring a 1976 MPG wagon - purchased 6/08

Original74

Chris,

Give me a bit to think.....I know he guy who posted about it worked there, I think he had Sam in his name....let me do some searching and I will get back to you.

Dave

Wow, ...searched on Amarillo...I love search at this age!   Check this out friend:

http://www.fordpinto.com/smf/index.php/topic,4209.0.html
Dave Herbeck- Missing from us... He will always be with us

1974 Sedan, 'Geraldine', 45,000 miles, orange and white, show car.
1976 Runabout, project.
1979 Sedan, 'Jade', 429 miles, show car, really needs to be in a museum. I am building him one!
1979 Runabout, light blue, 39,000 miles, daily driver

popbumper

Quote from: Original74 on March 14, 2008, 08:32:19 AM
Welcome Tiny!

Wow, a yard with 200+ Pinto's, makes me drool. We heard of a yard in Amarillo, TX who has something like 35, but 200, very nice. It would be interesting to know rough inventory, like are there any potential drivers or are they mostly sun faded rust buckets. For sure there would be good parts even if the exterior was shot.

Once again, welcome to the site and thanks for sharing!

Dave

DAVE:

  Can you write me and tell me about the yard in Amarillo? I sure would be interested to hear/see whta they have. Thanks!

Chris
Restoring a 1976 MPG wagon - purchased 6/08

Starsky and Hutch

1977 Pinto Accent stripe group Runabout                                                                    interior(Code PN) Color (Code R2)

Norman Bagi

I called today and got an answering machine, the lady on the machine did not sound too freindly.  Basically I got the impretion that they could be there or not.  So I was going to plan a trip out, but if they could leave on a seconds notice, i guess I have changed my mind.  No reason to make a trip for nothing.

Fred Morgan

Hi Tiny off sub., I have 79 ranch. that I am cleaning up again 332,000 mi. owned 24 yr's I am going to instal 2.3 + auto 4 spd. and pull big block 351-m + fmx. The 1 to instal is 94 D port head roller rocker, so if it can pull boat up ramp then I am good with it. I have spare part's if you need. Fred   :)
Fred Morgan- Missing from us...
January 20th 1951-January 6th 2014

Beloved PCCA Parts Supplier and Friend to many.
Post your well wishes,
http://www.fordpinto.com/in-memory-of-our-fallen-pinto-heros/fred-morgan-23434/

jimskatr103

i could use a stock throttle cable to a 72 2.0 manual trans. anyone know where to get the sticker that goe on the air cleaner?
1980 mercury bobcat (wrecked)
mint 1972 runabout- yellow
soon-to-have 76 bobcat v6

71fomoco

they are not answering there phones nor is there an answering machine for the number listed in this post.

71fomoco

Quote from: rear ended on April 14, 2008, 11:18:02 PM
I just read a report on hemmings stating that this junk yard is closing and they may be crushing off the inventory.  So get there soon.

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2007/10/



doesn't that just bite! thank that to high scrap metal $$

Norman Bagi

I just read a report on hemmings stating that this junk yard is closing and they may be crushing off the inventory.  So get there soon.

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2007/10/


Norman Bagi


Cookieboystoys

Tiny had the spelling wrong on the name... I found it  ;)

Hofferts Used Auto Parts
418 Swissdale Road, Bernville, PA 19506
610-488-1577
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

Norman Bagi

Tiny,

Does this place have an address and telephone number, I cannot find it in the Yahoo yellow pages.

tiny


map351

73 2.3Turbo Pinto
6S1941 / 289 Slab Side
40 Ford Sedan Delivery  For Sale

Pinto FiberGlass
https://picasaweb.google.com/73turbopinto/PintoHotpantsKitNewFrontAirdam

tiny

HEY ALL --TINY HERE AGAIN;

I GUESS IT WOULD HAVE BEEN SMART TO TELL OF THE YARD MORE, I HAVE GOTTEN A LOT OF REPLIES AND THANK YOU BUT I REALLY HAVEN'T GOT THE TIME TO GO LOOK FOR YOUR PARTS. THE NAME OF THE YARD IS CALLED "HOFFORTS" , ITS IN A TOWN CALLED BERNVILLE , THATS JUST NORTH OF READING PA.  NOW ANYBODY AROUND THAT AREA KNOWS OF THAT YARD, ITS SORT OF LIKE A THORN IN THE TOWNS BACKSIDE. IF YOU GO , WHERE COMFORTABLE SHOES. THE PROPERTY IS BIGGER THAN THE CARLISLE FAIRGROUNDS(NO JOKE). THE WIFE OF THE OWNER (ON A GOOD DAY) WILL TAKE YOU FOR A RIDE TO WHERE A CERTAIN CAR IS. THIS PLACE AIN'T CHEAP, ITS LIKE THEY ARE SAVING FOR THEIR RETIREMENT OR SOMETHING. THEY'VE GOT CARS GOING BACK TO THE 1930'S, WELL PICKED OF COURSE, ANY MUSCLE CARS ARE MERELY A SHELL, NO VETTES OR MERCS, THERE IS 1 CHOPPED TOP BUICK(1954?) THATS RUSTING ALL TO HELL BUT THEY THINK ITS WORTH $2500. THERE ARE A LOT OF HARD TO FIND FULL SIZE FORDS THERE LIKE THE CLONE X- BUT LIKE I SAID SOMEBODY HAS ALREADY RAPED IT.ONE OF THE FIRST OLD CARS YOU SEE IS A 1959 CADDY THATS BEEN STRIPPED.
    NOW ABOUT THE PINTOS, THEY ARE EVERYWHERE'S. YOU CAN PRETTY MUCH FIGURE OUT WHERE THEY PUT CARS IN THE 70'S AND THEN THE 80'S BUT THE PINTOS CAN BE FOUND EVERYWHERES, THEY ARE VERY HEAVY ON THE EARLY YEARS AND ALL THE WAY UP TO '78-- THE 79S AND 80S ARE SCARCE AND THE REASON FOR THAT IS THAT THERE IS A DIRTTRACK NOT FAR UP THE ROAD WHERE THE PINTOS GOT RACED BACK IN THE 80-90'S. THE RACETRACK IS CALLED BIG DIAMOND IN MINERSVILLE PA  FOR ANYONE KEEPING RECORDS.
    NOW YOU CAN TAKE A CLUB  OR GANG IN THERE BUT MIND YOU UNDER NO REASONS ARE KIDS ALLOWED, THEY ARE OPEN 8-3 WKDAYS AND 8-1 ON SAT--THEY ARE LOCATED ON SWISSDALE ROAD, FOR ANYONE WHO WANTS TO MAPQUEST IT. ALSO IT MIGHT BE WISE TO WAIT UNTIL THE WEATHER BRAKES A LITTLE MORE, SNOW DOESN'T MELT UP THERE TOO FAST.  IF THE LADY ASKS HOW YOU FOUND OUT ABOUT THEM , TELL THEM THE BIG GUY WITH DONUTS TOLD YOU. THAT WOULD BE A WORD TO THE WISE TO BRING A FOOD BRIDE, LIKE I SAID THERE PRICES ARE HIGH, EVERYTHING HELPS----GOOD LUCK TO YOU ALL AND MAY GOD BLESS YOU!!!!!!--TINY

map351

73 2.3Turbo Pinto
6S1941 / 289 Slab Side
40 Ford Sedan Delivery  For Sale

Pinto FiberGlass
https://picasaweb.google.com/73turbopinto/PintoHotpantsKitNewFrontAirdam

FCANON

even if the cars were parted out that would be a PhotoGraph worth having...Take pic's

FrankBoss

www.PintoWorks.com
www.pintoworks.com   www.tirestopinc.com
www.stophumpingmytown.com
www.FrankBoss.com

Original74

Welcome Tiny!

Wow, a yard with 200+ Pinto's, makes me drool. We heard of a yard in Amarillo, TX who has something like 35, but 200, very nice. It would be interesting to know rough inventory, like are there any potential drivers or are they mostly sun faded rust buckets. For sure there would be good parts even if the exterior was shot.

Once again, welcome to the site and thanks for sharing!

Dave
Dave Herbeck- Missing from us... He will always be with us

1974 Sedan, 'Geraldine', 45,000 miles, orange and white, show car.
1976 Runabout, project.
1979 Sedan, 'Jade', 429 miles, show car, really needs to be in a museum. I am building him one!
1979 Runabout, light blue, 39,000 miles, daily driver

tiny

HI I'M TINY, I JUST JOINED THIS GREAT SITE TODAY, I HAVE HAD 2 WAGONS IN THE PAST(NONE NOW) , PRESENTLY RESTORING A 78 RANCHERO, I'M A SALVAGE YARD NUT, I KNOW OF A YARD HALFWAY BETWEEN PHILADELPHIA AND CARLISLE THAT HAS NEVER CRUSHED ANYTHING THEY'VE BROUGHT IN AND THERE IS EASILY 200 + PINTOS AND BOBCATS, NO CRUISER WAGONS , I WOULD HAVE NAILED IT BY NOW---BUT IF ANYBODY NEEDS A SUPER RARE ITEM LIKE A '76 GRILLE, OR IF THE CARLISLE GROUP WOULD LIKE TO GET A POSSY TOGETHER FOR AN OUTING, LET ME KNOW EITHER HERE OR AT heytiny@msn.com  thank you and have a blessed day---Tiny