Mini Classifieds

1971-74 Various Pinto Parts
Date: 01/18/2020 03:44 pm
1971 Pinto (survivor)

Date: 05/15/2022 04:42 pm
Wanted Dash for Pinto up to 1975
Date: 01/19/2020 09:06 am
Pinto for sale

Date: 04/19/2017 10:15 am
1971 Pinto Do It Yourself Manual

Date: 03/06/2017 01:19 am
75 wagon need parts
Date: 05/28/2020 05:19 pm
Pinto interior parts for Cruisen / Rallye wagon
Date: 01/19/2021 03:56 pm
ENGINE COMPLETE 1971 PINTO
Date: 12/28/2017 03:55 pm
Intake, Head, and valve cover gasket sets

Date: 12/10/2017 01:14 pm

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,575
  • Total Topics: 16,267
  • Online today: 628
  • Online ever: 2,670 (May 09, 2025, 01:57:20 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 569
  • Total: 569
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Alignment Specs

Started by 77turbowagon, June 24, 2008, 02:13:26 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Jinxter

I just had mine aligned yesterday, to an '81 Mustang II.  Tire Kingdom's data goes only as far back as '81...  Seems to work fine!


Quote from: 77turbowagon on June 24, 2008, 02:13:26 PM
I had my 77 Pinto Wagon's frontend aligned. The shop didn't have the specs for the wagon so they set it off the specs of an 80 Mustang if I remember right. It feels good but it just doesn't fell right. Does anybody have the stock specs for a frontend alignment for a '77 Pinto Station Wagon? Thanks.
Beat it to fit, paint it to match...

jimspinto

Quote from: CHEAPRACER on September 27, 2008, 10:36:42 PM



Absolutely correct. I had an older 78 Toyota Corona that still pulled after the toe was set, a quick turn of the eccentric nut to reset the caster took care of that.

   Well thanks guy, your comment kinds of hits the nail on the head !  !

   The reason I didn't reply (at first) was because most everyone that is restoring and/or working on a Pinto today is an armature, and will pretty much go by the book
   Now lets not start an argument here, I said "most"  and there's nothing wrong with going by the book.  Now that that out of the way, I can continue........

    Alignments were always somewhat of a pain in the a**.  There is alot of missunderstanding as to what an alignment (or lack there of) will cause.  And believe me I got them all, and rather then rip them off, I always tried to explain the front end of the car to a customer.  It worked out to the better, as I had a very good reputation, and alot of repeat customers.

   However, there are alot of shops that will give you a bum-steer (pun intended)
  Although it was my objective to keep the customer happy, if I charged for an alignment, I DID IT.   And I always tried to get the car to handle correctly (well) on the road,  Quite often I'd varied off "spec" but only on caster.  Camber and toe were always set as close to spec. as I could get it, with tire wear in mind.

   Re. Whether or not the alignment that provoked this post was done, and done correctly, my first thinking and answer is NO.
  Now I'm sounding like a consumer.  Alignments were ALWAYS a money loss (to the shop)  You'd spend a couple of hours on an alignment, and the set price (in my day was $19.95) was within a half hour of the hourly labor rate,  The objective was for customer satisfaction and return for other work

  This is long and redundant, but I meant to get the point of going for the sepc's I'd mentioned before across.  If you (or a shop) could get the car within those readings, the car would handle fine and the tires wear good.

   Best as always  Jim  at jimspinto

CHEAPRACER

Quote from: jimspinto on September 27, 2008, 12:44:25 PM
   I wanted to reply on these questions,  but all the other answered seemed to be covering it (and are all good)
   
   However, after (almost) fifty years of automotive repair,  here's what I'd say  (and do)
   If the caster was "positive"  (plus 1,2,or 3) and both sides were equal to each other (both read the same)  I wouldn't push for anything closer (to spec.)

   Both camber and toe are important and could wear a tire if,off spec.

   For what its worth, and what your working with,  I'd be happy with,,,,,,,  camber at "0" to "1/2" positive (closer to the 1/2 if possable)  and toe at, Towed in, but not more than 1/8th

   If you could come close to these figures, your tire should wear even, car handle fine

   As to a pull,,,,,there are other things to look at,,,,,  Disc. brake calipers,,,,,, Tires and there wear patterns,,,,,,,,, but, if the "caster" is not equal to each other,, it will pull

   And before you try to align it,  ALL FRONT END PARTS MUST BE GOOD.  A bad ball joint, and you cant align the car  (actually you could, but as soon as you move the car, the spec's will change as the joint moves around.  Same thing to true with tie rod ends and etc.)

  Hope this is understandable, just because I/we know what we are doing, doesn't mean I/we can explain it to somebody else,

   Best as always,,,,,,,,,Jim at jims pinto




Absolutely correct. I had an older 78 Toyota Corona that still pulled after the toe was set, a quick turn of the eccentric nut to reset the caster took care of that.
Cheapracer is my personality but you can call me Jim '74 Pinto, stock 2.3 turbo, LA3, T-5, 8" 3:55 posi, Former (hot) cars: '71 383 Cuda, 67 440 Cuda, '73 340 Dart, '72 396 Vega, '72 327 El Camino, '84 SVO, '88 LX 5.0

71hotrodpinto

Alot of great advice. If you want i done right you need to make darn sure that all the bushings,wheel bearings, ball joints, rods and tires are in great to good shape. If not sure then replace them.

One thing that i have to add is that you should take it to a place that specialize in older cars. The newer places (some of them) have a bunch of lazy workers that all they know how Or WANT to do is adjust the toe. The Pinto takes alot of work to properly align. And i doubt he has the Pinto/Mustang II tools that are required to do a proper caster/camber setup. I know this from personal experiance. They just see if things are close to spec and if they are they just wont toutch it But if one side is on the high tolerance and the other is on the low than they will leave it alone.
You might want to check Ebay for the set of caster camber adjusting tools. They can be had very reasonable. If the alingment guy looks at the tools and scoffs or acts like you handed him a lefthanded screwdriver, then go somewhere else.

Good luck


95' 302,Forged Pistons,Polished rods
B303,1.7 Rockers,beehives
'68 port/polish heads                   
Coated Must II headers
Edelbrock Airgap
Holley570,Msd dist,CraneHI6
Mil

jimspinto

   I wanted to reply on these questions,  but all the other answered seemed to be covering it (and are all good)
   
   However, after (almost) fifty years of automotive repair,  here's what I'd say  (and do)
   If the caster was "positive"  (plus 1,2,or 3) and both sides were equal to each other (both read the same)  I wouldn't push for anything closer (to spec.)

   Both camber and toe are important and could wear a tire if,off spec.

   For what its worth, and what your working with,  I'd be happy with,,,,,,,  camber at "0" to "1/2" positive (closer to the 1/2 if possable)  and toe at, Towed in, but not more than 1/8th

   If you could come close to these figures, your tire should wear even, car handle fine

   As to a pull,,,,,there are other things to look at,,,,,  Disc. brake calipers,,,,,, Tires and there wear patterns,,,,,,,,, but, if the "caster" is not equal to each other,, it will pull

   And before you try to align it,  ALL FRONT END PARTS MUST BE GOOD.  A bad ball joint, and you cant align the car  (actually you could, but as soon as you move the car, the spec's will change as the joint moves around.  Same thing to true with tie rod ends and etc.)

  Hope this is understandable, just because I/we know what we are doing, doesn't mean I/we can explain it to somebody else,

   Best as always,,,,,,,,,Jim at jims pinto

Srt

is the steering wheel centered?
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

71pintoracer

If the caliper is sticking it will pull because it will put more drag on that side. If the piston is sticking in the bore, the inner pad will be worn more. If the caliper is sticking on the slides, the outer pad will be worn more. A deteriorated brake hose can do the same thing, although it can also make it pull both ways when braking. What happens is the passage inside the hose gets partialy clogged, restricting the flow of brake fluid. When you step on the brake the first time, fluid can't get to the caliper so it pulls to the other side. If you brake again soon enough the fluid that finally got in can't get out so it will pull the other way.
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

dave1987

I'm not thinking so. The calipers are fairly new and shouldn't be causing any pulling/ How would the caliper affect the straightness of the car though?
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

75bobcatv6

could the pulling be due to a caliper and not the alignment?

dave1987

I did replace them both and it still pulls to one side.

I don't want to have a shop do my alignment because I still need to replace my ball joints due to bad grease bellows. The joints are tight though, however after replacing them I would have to have another adjustment done.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

CHEAPRACER

I recommend replacing both tires. You seam to feel non power steering tire problems worse then power steering models also. I replaced both of my fronts and what a difference. and they weren't even that bad.
Cheapracer is my personality but you can call me Jim '74 Pinto, stock 2.3 turbo, LA3, T-5, 8" 3:55 posi, Former (hot) cars: '71 383 Cuda, 67 440 Cuda, '73 340 Dart, '72 396 Vega, '72 327 El Camino, '84 SVO, '88 LX 5.0

dave1987

How would I be able to tell if just one side is off in alignment? My car pulls to the left, however I believe that the passenger side is off due to the old tire being worn on the inside.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

77turbowagon

Awesome! Thanks for the quick reply Bill. I'll compare that to what they set mine at and see how much it's off, if any.

77turbopinto

Caster: .5*- to 1*+
Camber: .25*- to 1.25*+
Toe in: 0 to .250"

(Haynes)

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

77turbowagon

I had my 77 Pinto Wagon's frontend aligned. The shop didn't have the specs for the wagon so they set it off the specs of an 80 Mustang if I remember right. It feels good but it just doesn't fell right. Does anybody have the stock specs for a frontend alignment for a '77 Pinto Station Wagon? Thanks.