Mini Classifieds

SOME PARTS FOR SALE
Date: 01/11/2017 10:45 am
hood for a 79-80
Date: 11/30/2018 10:55 pm
1974 Ford Pinto Squire Wagon

Date: 05/30/2020 01:51 pm
Pinto for sale

Date: 04/19/2017 10:15 am
1979 PINTO PARTS--FREE
Date: 09/13/2022 02:05 pm
72 pinto drag car

Date: 06/22/2017 07:19 am
WTB Manual Transmission Clutch Pedal for '78
Date: 03/29/2019 07:20 am
Gazelle Replicar Pinto powered frame

Date: 01/28/2017 12:30 pm
1973 Pangra gauge and tach panel

Date: 11/02/2019 10:25 am

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
  • Total Members: 7,895
  • Latest: tdok
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,581
  • Total Topics: 16,270
  • Online today: 1,293
  • Online ever: 3,214 (June 20, 2025, 10:48:59 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 902
  • Total: 902
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Pinto for sale listing

Started by BIRDMAN, June 29, 2004, 01:58:57 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

skrach

yeah thery are fake  just delete them
1971 Ford Pinto Sedan. Original CA Car. Root Beer Brown. but wont be that color for long. Tired of the poop brown reputation. haha

Jesse

I also got about 7 of those emails.  At first i thought it was maybe a scam, then when i got 3 more the next day saying the same thing, i was 100% sure.  Whoever is doing it cant spell....

r4pinto

Take it from somebody that found out the hard way.... NEVER TAKE A CASHIERS CHECK unless you know who it's from. I did, and the bank tried to go after me for the amount, even though they failed to hold the check for 7-10 business days.
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

gvanlr

Hi Birdman
I have received 5 e-mails so far on the sale of my pinto.  One from  Ontario, Africa and the U.S.A .  If you want a list you can e-mail me and we can compare.
The only way I will sell is when the cheque clears the bank.  They will probably feel this is a scam.  I don't know else to do right now as there are so many people out to scam you.
Larry

STALLION76

UPDATE WARNING : I currently have had over 10 idiots offer to buy my car with a Cashiers check.DO NOT ACCEPT A CASHIERS CHECK FOM ANYONE FROM AN ADD ON THIS SITE!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will be pulling my add#1343 to sell it elseware .I have contacted the authorities and am prosecuting all involved in fraud !

STALLION76

Hi, I had 3 fraudulent  offers in 2 weeks to but my 76 Pinto Stallion Street /Strip #1343 with a Cashiers Check ." I recently listed it as cash only USA sale but I just got another!Total of 4 >:(  Sadly it makes it bad for honest people who get the money from a bank for payment.I have sold many cars over the years cash and I recomend to all to do the same.I'm glad I found this post as now at least I knowthat I am not alone in this. :-\ Thanks !!!!!

BIRDMAN

Hi Pinto Bro----------- haven't had any more idiot offers since the "double the money,send me the difference offer" I did the same thing thing, --certified cashiers cheque, with a time deadline. Nothing happened  I believe all of the weird offers were coming from the same person with a bunch of phony e-mail addresses. so for now everything is quiet, sorry to say no legitimate offers to date. I guess I'll have to keep the faith.
thanks for your note Birdman

PintoBro

A friend of mine was selling a 69 Mustang, and got one of those emails. The guy had a friend that owed him some money, and he was going to send him a cashiers check for almost twice the amount of the car, and he wanted my friend to wire him the difference. When he told me about it, I told him it was a scam, so he emailed the guy back that he would only accept a cashiers check for the amount of the car, and he would releaese the car when the check cleared the bank. Well the check arrived about 6 months later, and the check was a phoney.
Pintobro
71 Pinto 306 10.0:1 351w heads
Comp Cams: .554/.558 lift .294/.306 duration
Torquer II Intake - Holley 750 HP
Sepanek's Racing Transmissions C4 (Full Manual)
8" rear (4.62 spooled)

BIRDMAN


too many people with too much time on their hands,but $999,999.99 sounds like a stopper..now I just ignore them and delete the messages.

map351

I got one. ::) I have my RS turbo Capri up for sale they wanted to send me a certified check for the car and wanted to the amount ! I said just make for 999,000 U.S funds ;D

Mike/Map  ;D Http://community.webshots.com/user/map351 [/color]
73 2.3Turbo Pinto
6S1941 / 289 Slab Side
40 Ford Sedan Delivery  For Sale

Pinto FiberGlass
https://picasaweb.google.com/73turbopinto/PintoHotpantsKitNewFrontAirdam

BIRDMAN

Hi I'm just ignoring them now --What a pain --almost makes me wish that I had not placed the ad--such is life.

pimpin_pinto

haha, they sent me an e-mail saying they were from africa, and wanted it, that if i payed for shipping they would pay me a reasonable amount.  hmm, didnt sound right to me.

BIRDMAN

As you can see nothing happened after I had given a deadline for payment---I  didn't expect any responce-- too many people have too much time on their hands .

wagonmaster

I had one where the person said he was in the UK, but was  a US citizen that lived in "Rhodes Island" (his spelling). He would only pay with Cashier's Check and when I told him that the car would not be released until the funds were confirmed in my bank account, he never responded back.
Brien - wagonmaster
'85 LTD LX
'85 LTD Squire wagon

BIRDMAN

Thanks------- i've played along with them, then issued a deadline for payment-------------silence---Birdman

vbmdu

yes, yes, yes this is a scam. It's been out for a while. just ignore them.

BIRDMAN

Hi all the pinto is listed on the Pinto forsale site add#1202--------I'm still getting e-mail saying be patient -- the Cheque is on its' way Ha, Ha , where have I heard this song before?--I'm going to start increasing the asking price--make it a bidding war-- if they want to play games i'm on:::::

losin sux

Hey Birdman where is your car listed?
77 HB 2.3 C3 3.40

turbopinto72

 I did get that email, but knowing its a total scam I deleted it. Its hard to believe that anyone would fall for such a scam.
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

BIRDMAN

 ???
Has anyone who recently placed a for sale ad  been bombarded with requests for info ,prices etc, from Scotland, Russia, and somewhere in the U.SA. , people promising to send certified cheques, money orders,or cashires cheques?  My ad has been on the net for approx 10 days, and I believe this responce to be a bit of a scam, if anyone else has had this responce get back to me and we'll compare their e-mail addresses Thanks Birdman ??? :P