Some of you may remember Trent on here. Trent is by far one of the nicest, but craziest people in the world that I have ever met. Anyway, my name is Craig (CDG). I became friends with Trent this past semester of college helping him make his '89 project Jeep Cherokee run in the parking lot of his apartment. Basically we worked an accord: I buy his fuel pump and do the labor, and in exchange, I get the Pinto. Well his '89 is running, and I now have the Pinto.
It's a 1980 Ford Pinto Pony. I love the deliciously stripped interior with no radio, A/C, and of course the cloth seating surfaces. For some strange reason, this Pinto is a 2300 equipped with the C4 automatic (tranmission code "W", I think).
So the transmission doesn't go into gear when I met Trent. Oil level is spot on the money, recently changed, but put her in drive and it's a no go unless the engine is revved, then it will slam into gear. Of course I don't like this behavior and know from experience that this is a first-class ticket to needing a new tranny. Of course Trent drove the car like this for a few months before he could find a replacement vehicle. So I'm pretty convinced the transmission is going to need a major rebuild.
But I recall several things. First I then recalled an instance in which we had an old Taurus doing the same thing as this pinto - revving highly, hunting frantically for the right gear, then finally dropping into one gear and being stuck there. I was a young boy at the time, and I remember my dad telling the elderly couple that it was probably going to need transmission work, but he suggested, and I quote "but what the hell, why don't you try a quart of one of those transmission fluid conditioners. It probably isn't going to hurt it any worse than that leak at the pump seal is already".
And damned if that old car didn't last another 3 years behaving nearly perfectly before those people finally got rid of the car.
So I walked into the Checker, bought $10 worth of the Lucas transmission conditioner, warmed up the old Pinto, put it in, and Presto! Transmission is working great.
Now I'm recalling another instance. I believe it was an old Chevrolet Celbrity that we saw one time with similar problems, even though the dipstick showed nice transmission fluid. It wasn't until my dad spotted that he thought it wasn't the original dipstick that we realized somebody had but the wrong dipstick in the transmission tube. The hunch paid off, and the car continued a long time with a pretty minor transmission leak that we fed every time it came in the shop.
Now putting this all together, I'm wondering if my transmission treatment really worked the magic it advertised, or if in fact the transmission was low a quart or two on oil and the treatment made up for that.
So I'm going to try and grab a dipstick from a C4 Pinto, and put my theory to the test. Incidentally, if you happen to have one and want to help a college student out, I could probably throw a couple of bucks towards one... Of course it could also be a wrong transmission tube, or one that was for some reason cut too short, so we'll have to just take this one step at a time. :)
In the meantime, I got one nice running, pretty rust free, straight Pinto with about 72,000 original and well documented miles on it. And the killer is I got it for about $130 bucks and some weekend wrenching. I'm not going to take it out on the road seriously until I'm certain the fluid level in the transmission is OK, or at least that the dipstick is accurate. But for the interum, I will operate it a few miles a day and report if any further problems occur with the transmission.
Cool story CDG,
Keep us posted on your progress...
From Pintony
the kind of stores we love to hear. ( another pinto lasting longer than it should) lol well longer than any one thought.
i went though lots of trannys in my old 75 at one point i changed the trans out more than i changed the oil!
It's not unique to Pintos either. As a young boy my dad had an '83 Honda accord. We put 4 junkyard transmissions in it before it finally got totaled. Honestly I'm just tickled that so far it looks like I'm not going to have to rebuild the transmission. Working out of a college dorm is a real PITA. I rebuilt a motorcycle in there and I can tell you that sucked bad enough.
I drove the little beast around campus, and even on a brief 2 mile stint up to 70 mph on the highway. It's nowhere near perfect, but it's actually a nice little car. Transmission is a little slow shifting into drive, but has no trouble shifting between gears, and engages reverse perfectly. I don't want to push it too hard until I'm sure of the fluid level, however.
As soon as the title is for sure mine, I'm going to throw the usual round of plugs, wires, distributor cap, rotor, and PCV valve if so equipped (I haven't looked closely at the manual, or the car itself yet). It stumbles pretty badly off of idle, even when the engine is warmed up, but I'm going to reserve judgment on guessing what the cause is until after I get it tuned up.
I have a 72 2.0L with a C4 and its dip stick is about 23" long from the bottom tip to the top of the loop handle. Measuring from the bottom tip of the dip stick to the top of the tube is about 19-3/4". The full mark is 1-3/4" up from the bottom tip of the dip stick. The tube is roughly 17-3/4" long from its top to where it enters the transmission. May be you can remark your incorrect dip stick.
My 79 2.3L had a C3 with a two piece dip stick tube. The dip stick was missing.
cdg,
There should be a casting number on the stick, if you will post the # here I will check to see if it is the right one.
I have had C4 trannys in the past that would not move. Changed the fluid and filter adjusted the bands and they worked good as new. Be sure to use type F fluid in that year tranny.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it has type F fluid in it, but I'll check the maintnance records to confirm when the transmission fluid was changed. Trent had it flushed less than a thousand miles ago when he owned it... I'll also check and see if the filter was done at that point.
I'll get back here with some measurements and the casting number on my dipstick.
Thanks for the help! :) I guess what it boils down to is if the dipstick is the correct one, then that Lucas transmission treatment really works, and if it's the wrong dipstick, the Lucas stuff might or might not really work, but it was the fluid level all along...
OK, I took a look at the dipstick. The only thing resembling a part number on it would be:
EOBP-7A020-A2A
I did not procure a tape measure to double check the measurements posted by oldkayaker, but hopefully I'll be able to do that tomorrow.
The Pinto is now officially mine. Trent transferred the title to me today. In the works now will be a general tune up, oil change, checking that dip stick problem, and of course tracking down why the brake pedal feels a little spongy. Could be a brake master cylinder, but I need to do some tests before making that call for sure. I'll probably do some minor fixing up of the interior and paint too, but I don't have any plans to make it perfect right away...
After that, there is potential to either restore this car, drop in a V8 conversion, or do some modifications to the engine that's in it. But such work will require a lot of careful consideration, and investments of time and money, so for the meantime, I'm going to revel in my $130 automobile.
Cdg,
Good for you...sounds like that car is in good hands.
Yah...revel in it...sounds like you have school to contend with before you go Pinto fantisizing. Just tinker with it.....TLC. That 2300/c4 is a stout package...check that the rear end has plenty of gear oil...get a can or two of wd-40 and soak down the front and rear suspention bushings as well as the door locks and hinges. Check the u-joints for rattle and lube them if zerks are present. Thumbnail the specks. Replace the fuel filter. Again...Good for you!!!!
High_Horse
EOBP-7A020-A2A Correct stick for 80 Pinto C4.
Well it was a thought anyway. I just got done driving it around and the transmission fluid reads full. This begs the question in my mind, "where did the transmission fixer stuff go?". The transmission was full before I added it, and it still says full now. In both cases the car was thoroughly warmed up, and in both cases it was sitting in a nearly perfectly level parking space.
When cold the transmission jumps in and out of drive (i.e. at stoplights). Minimal application of the gas will let it jump back into drive.
When it's hot it basically doesn't come out of drive.
It does not slip or act up on the highway. Stepping hard on the gas makes the transmission downshift just like it should, and its shifts are generally very healthy (no sloppy or slippy shifting).
Any thoughts on this? I've done some work professionally as a mechanic, but I'm not an automatic transmission specialist. We generally left those kinds of jobs to the pros.
Worst case scenario is I drive it for a while like it is and see if it really gets any worse. I don't have a lot to lose with this car. And if it does, I'll probably try rebuilding the one that's in it. I've never tried an automatic transmission before, and I figure a C4 is pretty common transmission so finding good parts and guides on how to rebuild it should be fairly easy.
I would have liked to repaint it for my autobody shop class project, but I'm already working on my motorcycle, and I really don't have the spare bread to throw $400 or more into paint, even if I keep it white.
there's lots of good documentation on rebuilding C-4s they are one of the easiest autos to rebuild IMO.
This would be a good tech article to build the C-4 for best performance to work with a 2.3L...I bet there are lots of ideas out there to lighten up the internals....
Best of Luck
FrankBoss
Keep in mind that a "Pinto" C4 is not like a "Regular" C4. The Pinto ones are a lighter duty so if you rebuild it you can upgrade to the 'normal' C4 parts. Also, if you swap to a regular one, grab the governor (if its good) so you have the correct shift points.
The rule I heard over 20 years ago: When in doubt, add a QT of tranny fluid.
Bill
Check the vac line to the modulator valve to see if it has fluid in it.
Quote from: cdg on February 20, 2008, 02:13:48 PM
Well it was a thought anyway. I just got done driving it around and the transmission fluid reads full. This begs the question in my mind, "where did the transmission fixer stuff go?". The transmission was full before I added it, and it still says full now. In both cases the car was thoroughly warmed up, and in both cases it was sitting in a nearly perfectly level parking space.
When cold the transmission jumps in and out of drive (i.e. at stoplights). Minimal application of the gas will let it jump back into drive.
When it's hot it basically doesn't come out of drive.
It does not slip or act up on the highway. Stepping hard on the gas makes the transmission downshift just like it should, and its shifts are generally very healthy (no sloppy or slippy shifting).
Any thoughts on this? I've done some work professionally as a mechanic, but I'm not an automatic transmission specialist. We generally left those kinds of jobs to the pros.
Worst case scenario is I drive it for a while like it is and see if it really gets any worse. I don't have a lot to lose with this car. And if it does, I'll probably try rebuilding the one that's in it. I've never tried an automatic transmission before, and I figure a C4 is pretty common transmission so finding good parts and guides on how to rebuild it should be fairly easy.
I would have liked to repaint it for my autobody shop class project, but I'm already working on my motorcycle, and I really don't have the spare bread to throw $400 or more into paint, even if I keep it white.
i like u am far form auto trans pro but to me it sounds like one or two things. first that come to mind is tork converter isn't all the way full. (maybe from when it was flushed) number 2 is bad flow from the pump. aka week pump, clogged vent, or week vac from the engine. i would check those first. (vent and vac) if all look ok id over flow the trans fluid and run it a bit (idle - 2500 rpm, run it though all the gears and what not) then drain it back to where it should be. and see if that dose any thing to help.
this may not work, just a thought, some thing to try before u pull the trans. again i only know how to change them not fix them.
Low tranny fluid problems are also common in instances where an aftermarket tranny cooler is installed...
A friend of mine had a 79 t-bird that was acting the same. He told me the fluid level was fine.
With the fliud warm and the car level, I proceeded to step on the brake and put the tranny through the gears, P R N D etc. When i got back to PARK, i got out and checked the fluid and of course it was a quart low.
He forgot to compensate for the new cooler installation, so every time he put it in gear, the cooler would zoop up its capacity in fluid and drain back when not in gear.
Added about a quart and it was a happy C-4 from then on..
Steve
ok...my turn...If it is going through the paces when warm then the guts are ok. If it is not smoking at the tail pipe on takeoff then the vac. modulator diapham is ok. If you don't have a puddle under the car then it is not leaking out. I think the torque converter ate the fluid because the trans was acting up when you put the fluid in there. I would drop the pan and have a peek....the filter might be plugged up. Although tranny fluid may appear thin, it does thicken a little when cooled which would give it more resistance against a dirty filter when cold...furtheremore this condition would indicate a good filter gasket otherwise the fluid would flow past it and the trans would not act up during cold operation. I am not a big fan of those trans filters because the the dirt cannot drop off of the filter at no flow or can't be swooshed off during driving...what goes in that slot stays right at the filter surface. I agree with over filling but I don't think it would do you any good till you change the
filter. My guess dirty filter. And while you are under there change that little piece of rubber tubing connecting the vac. modulator to the vac. tube.
High_Horse
PS...cdg...Don't forget to put your pin in the map.
Well, as an update I drove the car today with the same problem. Very slow engaging drive (wait 3 or 4 full seconds before it engages), sometimes pops out of drive when stopped. Drive around the block twice and it's the perfect little driver. Shifts are great - it will start and stop on hills with no problems, and besides the fact that it feels kind of eager to downshift, it really drives very nicely for such an old car. It doesn't appear to be leaking fluid from anywhere.
To my knowledge the car does not have a transmission cooler, nor does it smoke when it jumps into gear. It does have a pretty bad stumble off of idle, which I haven't tracked down. Could be a vacuum line somewhere, or it could be a combination of the ancient plugs, wires, cap and rotor. I have the chilton book for Pinto/Bobcat, so I'm going to look into some of the diagrams and try to start figuring out the mess of hoses under the hood.
Funny the transmission filter was mentioned, because I was just kind of thinking about it this morning and that it might be a little clogged up. I think I'll give that a try after first adding a little fluid and then looking at the vaccum lines. But the filter explanation really sounds the most logical. It explains the bad behavior when it's cold and the good behavior when it's warm.
Well thanks for the advice everybody. I think it might be a while before I resolve these issues since it's snowing like none other outside. I feel lucky to be alive, as I had to drive the Pinto home from class in a world-class blizzard. Almost got it stuck a few times, but I remembered driving in the snow in my dad's Crown Vic. So a combination of skill and good luck got me home safe. :)
My 2 cents is this. I have rebuilt a lot of c4's in my day (don't claim to be a expert) but it could of had a sticky servo or clutch pack. The additive that you used could of freed up that servo or clutch pack. But as mentioned by someone else c4s respond well to filter changes and this could help you get by for a while.
If you do try to tackle the rebuild they are very easy to take apart and replace the seals,clutches and bands. Which is usally all they need. The kits are very cheap to buy and you can rebuild one for about $100. Just keep everything clean when you take it apart. One other thing to check is the modulator. It could be something that simple.
OK this is probably going to be my last big update in this thread for a while because it is far too cold and snowy outside to really do much transmission diagnosis, and I'm not sure I can change the transmission fluid and filter on the ground without at least some jack stands anyway.
But today the car was being really sluggish - it would barely go into gear at all. So I parked the car, raised the hood, and put the funnel in the transmission fill tube and I could hear gurgling and splashing, almost like the pump was drawing up bubbles. I never heard this before because I am pretty hard of hearing, and I didn't use the funnel when I added the transmission additive (it had a little squeeze nozzle like diff oil would have).
So I added about a quart of ATF and the gurgling stopped (it actually stopped at about the half quart mark on the bottle, but I decided to put the whole thing in and see what would happen).
Now even if the car is nearly ice cold, it will go into gear. It's still takes 3 or 4 good seconds to get it into drive, but it does that when it's hot anyway. It no longer pops out of drive at the stoplights either when it's cold. And there is no more gurgling from the dipstick tube.
Is the transmission leaking? I still maintain that I can't see any clear evidence that it is, but I"m going to keep a close watch on the fluid level and the behavior of this transmission.
That brings the total cost of this car up to about $124.50 from about 122 even. :D
Next to address is a fairly severe stumble this car suffers off of idle. Feels like a vaccum related problem, almost like if there is a vaccum advance on this distributor that isn't working properly. I'm going to be consulting my chilton manual for some details. I'll also knock out the basic plugs, wires, cap and rotor and fuel filter as soon as I get the chance. I've already added some octane booster to the tank just to see if that will change the behavior at all.