Hi all (n00b here, with a daily-driven 2.3L '79 Pinto wagon and a handful of question).
OK, last week or two I've been noticing steadily declining MPG, down below 10 at the last fill up, and an increasingly bad smell of gas. Last night an alert cop at a sobriety checkpoint noticed I was leaking something, which turned out to be gas! :o I was pretty close to home so they sent me on my way, and were probably rather happy to get me away from the flares they had lining up the center line of the road.
At home I pulled out a flashlight and had a look, with the car running there was a LOT of gas being dumped on the ground, which stopped as soon as I stopped the motor. Uh-oh...
So this morning I went out with the camera and a fire extinguisher, and had a look in there. This is what I saw:
(http://paulglover.net/stuff/pump-running.jpg)
Yep, that's gas spraying out of the top rear of what I take as being the fuel pump. :hypno: :o :'( :surprised: I caught maybe a quarter cupful of it in a tray in only 30 seconds or so of running.
So, what could be causing this, and just what is the opening that the gas is spraying from? The car is running fine otherwise, so I don't think the fuel filter is blocked enough to cause this (but it's a cheap replacement so I'll do it anyway).
Is there a fuel return line back from the pump to the tank, and if it had gotten clogged would it cause something like this? How can I test for that?
Or is the pump shot, maybe an internal seal has failed?
That's the order I plan to investigate in, any other suggestions?
Thanks in advance!
"...any other suggestions?"
Yes, install all new hoses, clamps and a new fuel filter when you change the pump, and don't even start the car again until you do.
Oh, and be sure RE-INSTALL the fuel pump guard.
Bill
Quotedon't even start the car again until you do
Amen to that.
I'd been intending to give it a close look over this weekend anyway, with the motor running to see where anything was leaking, but last night confirmed there was a (bad!) leak and made sure of that happening.
When you say install all new hoses, do you mean everything right back to the fuel tank, and up to the carb, including the metal lines, or just the nylon hoses? Those do look in need of replacement, now that I've looked closely at them.
Thanks!
That is where my old old pump was spraying fuel out of.
The hole you are having gas spew out of is a weep hole. It is there as a no-brainer way of telling when your pump is bad.
The reason it shots out that hole is because the diaphragm is shot on the pump and fuel makes it past it, coming out the top. The diaphragm has rotted away and you need a new pump.
I hope you bought some lottery tickets because you are one Lucky dude... (I can't believe those cops let you drive away - can anybody say "lawsuit?"
A replacement pump will be at Advance Auto tomorrow morning unless the ice storm/freezing rain they've been calling for here happens overnight. All the other bits I need (clamps, nylon gas hose, filter) are off the shelf items. The metal fuel lines all look good.
I was a little surprised the cops let me continue, even if I was only a few minutes from home. I half expected to be cited for defective equipment or something. But, this is rural southwest Virginia, all my lights work, and I was sober.
Off to buy that Powerball ticket now, in my wife's car of course...
Thanks all!
Quote from: ni2sml on December 15, 2007, 01:56:15 PM
...When you say install all new hoses, do you mean everything right back to the fuel tank, and up to the carb, including the metal lines, or just the nylon hoses?...
Anything rubber that has been there a while should be changed before it fails. I would inspect all the metal lines, but they typicly need to look VERY BAD before they have leaks; keep in mind that they don't run the pressure that the brake lines run. If you have any doubt, you can make new ones from brake line.
Bill
Howdy All,
While you're on the subject of replacement rubber fuel hose:
Avoid buying any rubber line that is NOT labeled with the lettering SAE J30R9 on the hose.
This is the most current blend of rubber matrix that will withstand any nasty Oxygenate fuel additives. It has a high Fluorolastomer content and will not adversely shrink or swell when exposed to the Newer fuel. I got this information from a Gates rubber engineer back in the 90's when MTBE was added to California Fuels and Cars were lighting up everwhere if they were made before 1990.
Don't add Fuel to your Fire potential , Buy the Non-Nitrile fluoroelastomer type J30 R9 line.
Best Wishes, and keep the torch lit , not your Pinto :hypno:
Pintosopher
I have a complaint about fuel hose. I cant seem to get any GOOD fuel hose. I am replacing fuel line (hoses) every few years. Id think it would last longer than that. The ones i took off had all kinds of buildup and stuff on them so they were surly TONS older. These that i have recently replaced were still clean looking. I buy some kind of gates hose....whatever oreillys carries. Nothing seems to be made to last like it used to.
I currently have a rubber line going from my pump to my carburetor which is actually fuel injection line. I don't know what I replaced my steel line to pump lines with, but I will be sure to check now.
So far, I have a replacement fuel pump and suitable rubber hose + clamps (thanks Advance Auto!), the new fuel filter is in (along with a new air filter), and the impact guard around the pump is off, but it was getting a bit too windy to work safely (40 mph gusts, decided I'd rather keep the hood attached to the car and so quickly called it a day). Looks like I'm taking Monday off to get the old girl back on the road.
Only problem other than the wind: the nut which attaches the metal pump-to-carb line to the old pump wouldn't move, hoping that some WD40 and the overnight delay will help free it up. I guess it's been on there awhile...
QuoteNothing seems to be made to last like it used to.
How very true. Here I am daily driving a car that was built nearly 30 years ago. The motor could really use a rebuild and the body needs even more TLC, but other than this fuel pump problem it's been totally reliable. I find it hard to imagine that, 30 years from now, there'll be a thriving community at toyotacamry.com talking about their cherished old motors...
Thanks all for the help and advice. I wouldn't have thought of using brake line to replace the metal fuel line, or even using rubber fuel injection system line. It shouldn't be necessary in this case, but it's good to know! :)
I had the same problem with the same car. Cepts its a 79 sedan. Ended up the only way i could get it off was to take it and the pump off. and put the line and nut in a vice and unscrew the pump from nut. I had damaged the nut too much by that time tho so even tho im using it, i cant get it as tight and id like. Took vice grips to get it where its at. I'll eventually get a new one, or use the special barbed fitting i bought to screw into the pump, and run a rubber hose form it to the carb. OR better yet since the mechanical pump is new, but oddly not working on its own, i'll just delete it and connect the line that normally goes right into the pump, strait into the carb. Im running an electric pump and pushing thru the mechanical pump for now. Even tho the pump is new im sure it will leak into the crankcase eventually. I couldnt seem to get the mechanical pump to work on it. This car has sat for 16 years, it needed alot of things before it could be driven again..it had the factory 79 pump, still has the factory plug wires and probably cap and rotor. Hope your new mechanical pump works ok. I couldnt get it to work on my 76 or on the 79 so they both got electric pumps. And its a carter pump!
Not a cheapie. Guess the lobe on the Aux shaft is worn down i dont know. Takes alot of lift for a new pump i guess.
Putting a wrench on the nut and trying to turn it was threatening to make it into a nice smooth circle (that's some soft metal!). I got it off by putting a set of locking pliers on it, applying a bunch of torque and praying for it to move before the nut got trashed. It's a bit less nut-shaped than it was, but not bad enough to stop a wrench from going on.
Back inside warming up a little before I pull the old pump. The bolts are already off, and all the lines detached and blocked off (a suitable sized bolt pushed into the end of each old rubber line and the clamp put back onto it is doing a great job there).
I've done quite a few of these where they sprayed out of the seepy hole...
looks like you don't have to fight with the pump shield.
I hope it works out well for you.
It seems every time I do one and brag about how easy it is it turns out to be a pain in the arse.
FrankBoss
It lives! It LIVES! Bwahahahahaaaa!! :lol: *cough* Sorry...don't quite know what came over me there.
Quotelooks like you don't have to fight with the pump shield.
The shield wasn't all that hard, oddly enough, coming off or going back on. Well, the back bolt was kind of awkward, but once I figured out how to get a socket onto it (from above left, through a nest of vacuum hoses, with about 1' of extension bar, and center lead pulled off the distributor to get it out of the way) it was OK. It probably helps that this Pinto has no power steering or AC, and a previous owner removed the AIR pump, so the shield didn't have anything attached to it or above it getting in the way.
QuoteIt seems every time I do one and brag about how easy it is it turns out to be a pain in the arse.
I find it's easier just to assume that any time I go near any vehicle with a wrench, pain and suffering will soon follow. Even if I'm just changing the oil. :-\ Though on the upside, getting the job done is always a good feeling.
I did have a momentary scare when the car kept cranking and cranking and...wouldn't start. Then I remembered the center lead to the distributor...durrrrrr... ::)
HOLD IT, STOP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PLASES STOP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All the information to this point is good !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HOWEVER, if a pump leaks where you can see it, its not UNCOMMOND that it also leaks the other way AT THE SAME TIME [into the crankcase]
Before you run the motor [I assume you'v allready run it] any longer, without changing the motor oil and filter
get all the advise you want, but if the pump leaked on the ground, chances are it leaked into the crankcase also.......... anyway oil is cheep !!!!!!!!!!
Best of holiday wishes, Jim at JIMS PINTO
OK, didn't know that could happen. :o
As luck would have it, the car was due a change of oil anyway, and the old oil was draining out when I made the last post. It ran for maybe a minute before I shut it down and started draining it for the oil change.
FWIW, I didn't see any signs of fuel in the old oil, but then I didn't look all that closely at it. What's in there now is fresh and clean. :)
Again, thanks all for the advice, hints, and everything! :)
Hey, you welcome, glad to be of help.
However, its tine to tell [what turned out to be funny] a story
This happened back in the 70's, it was a Ford product but not a Pinto, think it was a Fairlane
"to set the scene"
I owned a garage & tow co. ~ at the time, my partner & myself worked 24 hour days ~ he started at 5am & worked until midnight ~ I started at noon & worked until 5am ~ every three days we switched. God we were crazy, working like that !
This day, I'd come in at noon and was advised of a car that had to be towed, which I did
Apon returning, my partner said "unhook the car next to the door, and take a quick look at it. It wont start, the customer has tryed for 3 or 4 days, and for some reason he now was in a big hurry. Call him as soon as you know what the problem is
I unhooked the car, put the battery charger on it, removed the air cleaner and the dist. cap, turned the key on, jumped across the selonid [turning the engine, to check for spark]
There was this unbelieveable explosion, blew the hat off my head and when the smoke cleared, I noticed the the motor oil running down the driveway
After calling the car owner, I got the FULL STORY
Seems he worked at a hospital and had been bringing home "ether" and pouring it down the carb. for days. It built up in the oil pan and somehow the spark jumped from the dist. to the open cap, fired a plug or two and blew the oil pan wide open
Everyone [except the car owner] got a big laugh out of it, he didn't think it was funny when he got the bill for a new oil pan [we'd both agreed it was his fault, not mine]
When he came to pick up the car, he again apologized for not telling about the ether. But I need to tell this part also !
He had false teeth, that didn't fit well. When he talked he kept his teeth together [I guess so they didn't fall out] and it sounded like he had a mouth full of something. For years, we'd say be carefull with ether, remember mouth full of sh-- And then laughed like hell
Guess you'd have to be there, but to us it was funny the way it happened, still funny today
Today, just a reminder, BE CAREFULL with starting fluid, or any "volatile" subtance and especially if your unfortunate enough to get hold of "raw ether"
Holiday best to all. Jim at JIMSPINTO