In the ever increasing effort to "drive" (no pun intended) towards a better understanding of what, perhaps, I want to do, I am grappling with the question of drivetrains. I know that several of you run V8's, several of you run stock, and some even explore the turbo world.
If I can lend some "lack of understanding", would you guys kindly direct me towards whether the comments I am making are accurate or not? I obviously have a lot to learn - but I want to understand this better. Being an engineer, I MUST explore options instead of just jumping in.
OK, given that, here is what I see as the pro's and con's of various platforms. Tell me if you agree, disagree, and why you personally would choose one format over another.
V8
1) Plus - Excellent power/weight ratio
2) Plus - Reasonable cost - V8's are plentiful, aftermarket parts are plentious
3) Plus - Personality - the point of jamming big horses in a small car is just "cool"
4) Minus - Drivetrain must be adjusted (different tranny, rear end)
5) Minus - no "drop in", you must modify and add proper motor mounts
6) Minus - Suspension must be adjusted (heavier springs all around)
7) Minus - Fuel consumption
Turbo 4 cylinder
1) Plus - high horsepower in a compact footprint
2) Plus - more reasonable fuel economy
3) Plus - Less modification to the drivetrain/suspension (true)?
4) Plus - drop in
5) Minus - Not sure
"Built" 4 cylinder
1) Plus - a beefed up /rebuilt standard aspirated 4 cylinder is rare - and neat
2) Plus - No need to rearrange the engine compartment
3) Plus - no major mods to drivetrain/suspension required
4) Minus - EXPENSIVE - because it's a "rare beast", specialized parts are gonna hurt
5) Minus - unless you spend BIG BUX, you will not derive the horses you can from a turbo or V8
For me, if money was no object, I would really LOVE to have something like an Esslinger racing motor, because it's not something you see every day. A V8 would be next.
Can anyone share some ideas/corrections to this? THANKS!
Chris
PopBumper,
That is a pretty braud question. It depends who you are and what you have to work with. If you are going to v-8 a pinto use a v-6 car because they already have the front suspension and 8 inch rearend. If you use the drivetrain from a Turbo thunderbird you have to change the rearend but the front suspension is ok. The cheapest easiest transmission is automatic unless you are using a standard shift car. Allot of the decision begins with the car you have to start with or that you are planning to aquire.
High_Horse
I agree with H/H, you need to look at what you have, can get/do, and your goals.
I have seen it posted in a few places where the V6 is lighter than a 2.3. I would imagine that the engine C/G is slightly to the rear which might also require softer springs; I don't know.
From some other posted info, not all V6 cars came with the 8" rear.
IMHO:
In your V8 section:
1) The V8 is heavy, and fairly far forward in the engine bay. I would put this as a Minus. I think the 'power to weight' winner is the 2.3T EFI.
2) Ford V8 engines are out there for short money, but Mustang II v8 specific parts are not cheap (for the most part, but they can still be found at a reasonable price). Although the cars are NOT identical to a Pinto, these parts make some of the swap 'easier'. I would put the latter aspect as a Minus.
8) ADDED: The sound of a 302 Pinto with dual Flo-Masters..... Big Plus
In your turbo section (I assume 2.3T EFI)
3) + 4) I also assume you are referring to "VS. a V8"? LOTS of parts still need to be custom fabricated; as much, if not more than the V8 thing. If you want to close the hood and hide the 2.3T EFI, even more work is needed then hiding the V8. As having both, each have their work.
5) Dealing with the electronics. Athough not all that complicated, it seems to be a big issue with many people doing, or thinking of this swap. Minus.
In your "Built" 4 cylinder section:
3) You will still need to swap the tranny and maybe the rear too. No stock Pinto tranny will hold up in the long run (or short depending). Some argue that the 6.75" rear can be durable, but I have not had such luck.
Added: 6) Getting good power will decrease 'daily drive-ability', depending on a few things you (could) do to get power. Minus
Bill
A few other things to think about.
V8s are/can be traction issues. Its is very hard to use all the Hp/torque that a V8 develops unless you really build the rear half of the car accordingly. My 289 car was real fun to drive but I had to be careful with it because the rear would come around pretty easly.
The 2.3-2.5 turbos are a lot of fun. The do require a bunch of fabricating if you want to keep it all under the hood. You can lower the motor mounts like I did on my car and get it all stuffed under their nicely though. As for a 2.0 turbo, thats a little easier especially if you use a carb. The 4 cylinder engines are also more forgiving on the drive train.
An all Alluminum Esslinger USAC N/A engine would be a LOT of fun with a set of Webbers on it. ( its only money though)
As far as drive trains go. I have put 400+ hp and equal that torque through an 8" rear end ( both the 289 and the 2.5 turbo) and have not had any issues. I have used a T-5 and C4 both successfully both in racing and on the street. I sheered the flywheel off the crank in my 2.5 with the T-5, but the trans held up nicely. On the C4 I blew out the Servo gasket ( lost about 2 Qts of oil in about 30 seconds). but thats all. When I ran a modified 2.0 ( non turbo), stock 4 speed and stock 6 3/4 I thrashed it at the Drag strip. The rear end held up fine but all the synchros in the trans were thrashed. Its to easy these days to find a T-5 and swap it out with the 4 speed anyway.
my 2c
NIce, guys. Love the forum, that's the kind of experience/comments I can really get something out of. Part of my rationale for asking these questions is exactly as H_H stated - it depends on what you start with. I know of a 1971 hatch car available locally that had a 289 in it, and has a 302 for sale with it, plus has been set up for 5 lug on both axles; the swap over is pretty much straightforward as a result. Good car to start with.
On the other hand, I really would like a 4 cylinder, because it would be unique, and a wagon has always been more interesting to me, since I miss my '79 so much.
Regardless, I greatly appreciate the feedback, and y'all taking the time. It's gonna happen, just not sure when.
Chris
Fuel consumption with the V-8 does not have to be bad. Get a modern roller 5.0 motor put a mild (or stock) cam in it. Add a set of modest aluminum heads and shorty headders with an AOD or 5-speed and I bet you'll turn 20+ MPG. The car would haul butt even with 3.00 gears. My old 5.0 Mustang with mild mods got 22-24 MPG on the freeway. Of course you'll probably get over 30 MPG with the turbo motor but you will always be buying the expensive premium gas.
I'm going with a 2.3 turbo in mine with a T5 5 speed. The 2.3 turbo doesnt add much weight to the front of the car, if any (because the battery has to be put in the back). The fuel injection eliminates hard starts, long warmups, and slow throttle responce. The 4 cylinder also does not produce mass power down low, and that combined with no additional (or minor) weight up front gives better traction. The 4 cylinder will handle better too because there wont be as much extra weight up front over the wheels. Overall the driveability will be better also with the 2.3T. You can tune the boost up and down as needed its not too hard. That will eliminate the need for the expensive fuel. Plus you can add water, alcohol, or propane injection and use the high boost even on the street with only premium fuel. With the N/A 4 cylinder you will have to have high compression which you will need the high octane fuel with. I dont know if the premium fuel with alcohol/water/propane injection thing works on that or not. No matter what way you go, you will have to modify the drivetrain unless you happen to be lucky and find a car with a C4 and an 8" rear from the factory. I dont think many C4s were used in pintos, and ive only got one pinto (out of 3) that has an 8" rear and no one really knows why. It doesnt have any other options whatsoever. But yet my wagon has a 6.75. Wierd. Anyways. In my opinion the 2.3 turbo is the best way to go. It gives the performance, drivability, handling, etc that the other options just dont quite touch. There are downsides to all options, but i think the 2.3 efi turbo has the least. This is all true if you are like me and want your pinto to be daily driven. I dont beleive in having a car i cant drive on the street. So, no dedicated drag cars for me. Now if that is your thing, Cut the car up, Tub it out, put in a sub frame, gut it, put in a built to the max V8, and some big a$$ tires and whatever else and im sure you'd be fine. But, dont plan on driving that on the street much :D;D