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Engine and parts....
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Nice car, nice motor and nice nice shiney parts. Got to love those Al. heads when they are new.
:welcome: Pinto Pro,
YES!!! A VERY NICE Pinto indeed!!!!
Nice 1/2 hatch too!!!!!
Love that front spoiler!!!!
From Pintony
Thats the small window hatch.
Unfortunately, all those shiney parts are now covered in dust and cobwebs!!
Thats a nice sleek looking pinto. It reminds me of the paint scheme on my dad's 240z. :fastcar:
The paint is "Midnight Blue Burst" from a late 90's Dodge truck, the stripes are silver metalic (they look white in some pics, but they are silver), and they are painted on...not stickers!!
What is that front spoiler off of? It looks really slick. Another great looking Pinto. Our ranks are a growin'!
i used to have a spoiler real similar to that on my '71. mine was made of fiberglass and the center opening was (IIRC) a bit wider, but it had the same lip at the bottom and wrapping up at the ends. watch out for curbs, intersections with dips , speed bumps and parking lot stops if you have one of these and the car is lowered!
The front spoiler was a cheapie thing from the J.C. Whitney catalog, it came with a rubber strip that affixes to the bottom lip of the spoiler, but I did'nt like the way it looked so I left it off.
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Does Whitney still offer that spoiler?
I just may order one for my soon to be turbo Pinto.
I dont know if they still offer it or not....that was 10 years ago ;D
Quote from: dholvrsn on October 21, 2007, 05:33:00 PM
Does Whitney still offer that spoiler?
I just may order one for my soon to be turbo Pinto.
"Let me know how well it stands up after you hit the curb."
You mean like this??----> :accident:
It wont be hitting any curbs for a long time.
Im so fed up with it, its been sitting for a year, and I have no plans right now to even think about taking it out of the garage.
The dust and cobwebs on it are so thick, you almost have to 'peel' them off!! :hypno:
Tires all flat from sitting, and rotten gas in the tank......F' it....im done with it.
Kinda of a dumb question, But was ur car in Hot Rod magazine a few years back? I remember one being in their that lookd identical to yours.
Yes, it was.
Sept. 2000 issue. The story featured my brother Steve, who is no longer with us, and the motor at that time was just a stocker with a ported big valve head.
Now its got an all new motor with some decent aftermaket parts in it.
Looks great.
UPDATE:
Took the car out of the garage for the first time i a looooong time.
Air'ed up the tires and started it. Let it warm up, took it for a drive up the street.
I got on it and it just happened to respond to the pedal. It broke loose and fishtailed sideways for a second. So I took it to the dyno to find out why it just wont run.
We put it on the dyno, and it put down 330 at the wheels with only 14 PSI, and breaking up badly at 4200 RPM's.
This thing should be able to fart out 450 at the wheels when it runs good.
It just hits a brick wall at 4200...it will not rev any higher, and it just pops and sputters like the rev limiter is set on 4200...but its set at 7000.
I checked everything...ignition, fuel/induction, compression, cam timing...you name it.
I have concluded that there is a problem in the ECM, and I'll need to send it back to the manufacterer to have them check it out and recalibrate if neccessary.
I've been trying to fix and figure out this EFI shizod for 8 years, and I've pretty much had it with this stuff.
All the so-called "experts" have only made it worse, but I think I may have it figured out this time.
Have you swapped the cam?
What cam are you using?
I ask becuase my yellow car was doing something similar. I was running a stock T/C cam, it ran good and pulled great to just under 6K until it ate a lobe. I had a good stock Pinto cam and needed to get it running so I put it in. With that one it pulled until 4500 and shut down. I bought and installed a factory roller and now it pulls great all the way to 6K+. During all this the ONLY thing I did was swap the cams.
Just a thought.....
Bill
Great looking car with an even greater looking engine setup, I hope you get all the kinks worked out and get to enjoy the car to pay off the work and time you've invested into it... just don't give up, you gain nothing from giving up.
-beegle55
LOL..but I lose money by constantly dumping greenbacks into it. :amazed:
The cam is the popular Esslinger #2277 hyd.roller
So its either in the ECM, or I need to try yet another TFI module.
No need throwing good money after bad. Whatcha want for it?
Quote from: Pinto Pro on May 05, 2008, 11:58:53 PM
LOL..but I lose money by constantly dumping greenbacks into it. :amazed:
The cam is the popular Esslinger #2277 hyd.roller
So its either in the ECM, or I need to try yet another TFI module.
So.... are you saying that you swapped out the ECU and/or the TFI before and it fixed it?
I have read that people hated the 2277, and either put a stock T/C or roller back in their cars. I am not saying that IS your problem, its just a thought.
Bill
I have had trouble with the TFI units before (kinda like a Mallory "Unilite" system), and I've swapped out for new units and everythging works fine...for a while.
I have brand new one in place, but I'll try swapping it out for yet another one again because I am going thru the process of elimination.
This car has SDS on it, so I have no way of swapping out the ECM for another unless I buy another. I called SDS and explained what was going on, and they said I could send in the ECM to have them check it out, but that it is rare that anything like that goes wrong with them (of course).
So I can try swapping out the TFI unit, and/or the pickup inside the distributor, before sending off the ECM for a checkup.
I like the camshaft, it certainly makes more power than a stock one, and Im sure theres more left in this combo if I can just make it run!!
Throwing money at it is all water under the bridge now...I lost count of how much I've blown on this thing!!
Everyone says "get a Motec system" or a FAST system or something similar.
But they're talking $5000+ for an injection system....no thanks, I can convert this car over to V-8 for that kind of money, and it will be just as fast, and more reliable!!
The latest update is that I put on yet another new TFI unit, and low and behold, its working correctly.
I let it warm up, re-checked the timing, and took her for a spin around the block.
And spin is what it did!!......as in, all 3 gears!!
Now Im ready to click off some 10.50's... :o
Well, I have been struggling with this thing. I t seems like it would go on one really good run, then crap out all the rest of the time.
Very frustrating.
After changing out literally every electrical and ignition component on the car more than three times each, the only conclusion that I come to, is that the SDS unit is malfunctioning very badly.
So its going in the trash, and a whole new system from "Micro-Tech" is going in the car.
Even with the SDS system not working properly, it was still able to put down 405 ponies at the wheels on the chassis dyno.
There is much more in it, but the current setup will not allow it to be discovered.
I put on some new M/T Drag Radials too...the old "I Block" tires were hard as stones, and it would'nt stay in its own lane when the boost came on!!
There are plenty of NHRA mandatory upgrades I have to do still.
I am going to race a local guy here who has a 1948 Austin (old British car) with a blown 383 Chevy in it. His car runs good, but when he gets his butt handed to him by a Pinto....in front of his buddies, no less....it will be a sweet sight to see.
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Its been a while, and I've done a little bit of work on the car. Cut out the trunk floor and made a new compartment for the fuel cell , battery, and fuel pump.
Added a rollbar, but Im still not done completely.
Trying to make the car legal for the strip, but everytime I go there, it seems like they are not satisfied. Its not an all-out race car, its a street car dammit!!
Anyways, heres where I removed the rear floor....
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Heres some of the progress....
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Glad to see that you haven't given up!
Can i ask why you didnt go with sumthing like megasquirt when you where having so many problems with your efi?
I dont know anything about megasquirt. Im pretty much in the dark when it comes to EFI. I might even trash the current system and go with a blow-thru carb system.
I'll never buy another EFI system ever again.
lol i feel ya on the EFI annoyance i figure ill just grab a MS when i start to build my 2.3t bobcat and if it dont work out how i want itll end up in the ae86 driftcar And ill just go speed density.
Blow thrus are pretty BadA** alot of people dont like um though.
When they're correctly set up, they are just as good as EFI
It sounds like a problem with the ect sensor. they are notorious for going bad and will make the car intermittently run like a bag of butt. when you mentioned it wouldn't pull over 4k rpm i was thinking the cam was out a tooth but since some tinkering has resolved that it eliminated that possibility it would make sense to look at other things. one tooth or approx 5 degrees will shift the power range of the cam around about 1500 rpm making it fall on its face around 4500 rpm or if its out the other way it'll be a total dog till about 4500 then wanna rev to 7. otherwise its an issue with a bad ground/wire or connection in the system, TFI's are somewhat fragile but no t to the extent you describe, you can beef them up with a large heat sink or relocation to the firewall
if you think an efi is hard to set up try and get a blow thru carb to run right LMFAO. draw through is a much easier tune - up. blow through will almost always be slobbering rich off the boost or way lean on it with no happy middle ground. Plus the joys of having to hat and seal the carb
i can provide you some links to switch the original ford eec system to mass air with a moates device and a little patience. there is enough info out there now to do more with the factory system than you can with most of the aftermarket stuff. Speed density licks balls, to much tuning every time you change something.
The chassis work looks really nice BTW.
OhSix'
Another question is that an 8 inch rearend with turbocoupe rear discs on it?
If not what kinda discs are they?
Yes, it is a 8" inch rear with TC disc setup on it.
The car has an aftermarket EFI system on it right now, not a stock Ford system.
I know several people running blow thru carbs on turbo'd V8's and they are working awesome...which is whats making me think about going that route.
I can tune a carb with a screwdriver, but I cant tune an EFI system with one!!
I always have to take the car to a dyno shop to have it tuned, and its very costly.
Im just tired of spending big money on this car only to have it continuously disappoint.
Im going to fiddle with the current combo to get it running (which means another expensive dyno session), but Im no longer shooting for a power goal. I just want it to drive under its own power.
This combo is cappable of 450+HP at the rear wheels, but I know if I push it that hard, something is going to fail, so I'll back off from that goal and try to keep it alive instead.
Pro,
I assumed the sds you are using is the one that pigtails into the original eec IV harness, this may be off base and you might be stand alone. do you have a forum link to some details of your setup. i am not super familiar with their system as i have been concentrating my efforts on hot rodding the original ecu as far as possible but since you are still on the tfi it is interfacing with the factory sensors on some level right?. which ones does it use, from here out i am making some assumptions about the configuration. it appears to remove the vam and there also doesn't seem to be a maf meter on the deal so its speed density?
SD is tough since it really doesn't measure the air as much as calculate volume based on temp, pressure, "assumed volumetric efficiency" and load. its the 3rd one that throws a wrench in the works and requires a new tuneup to change to a high flow air filter. :mad: as restrictive and rudimentary as it was at least the vam system was an attempt to measure the actual amount of air flowing in the system. Maf is ideal since it actually meters air so the VE calculation is determined by volume vs rpm. as long as your mass air base tune is close it will compensate for most changes in intake and exhaust efficiency without dyno time. cam changes can be optimized with a fresh tune up
on the ford eec the spark advance is closely tied to the coolant temp if your system is similar in any of its workings a funky sensor can screw you 6 ways from sunday . can you data log it? do you have a wideband o2 and egt sensors on it? those 3 items will let you do alot of tuning with the crotch chronometer and a flat stretch of blacktop. the modern equivalent of a flat blade screw driver is the 9 pin serial port my friend.
other stuff to look at.
is it expecting IAT or VAT sensor input? similar function somewhat similar packaging different scaling
MAP vs BAP sensor. again factory parts use the same packaging and plug yet do different things. you got enough bar for your boost levels?
what injectors are you running? high or low impedance? again not knowing the sds can it drive one or both? is the scaling set right in the ecu?
do you have any documentation on the sds system you can send me to look over?
Again assuming you just pigtailed into the factory harness i suggested making the original p or la series ecu into mass air. I think i have all the documentation and software assembled to hash together a p series file that will incorporate 96lb low imp injectors, the 80mm maf sensor from an f series pickup and a maf clip function that should allow the use of a good ol fashioned swing style bov without making the dang thing go filthy rich on transition. i am just doing a little more research to see if i can figure out how to use the standard and easily available iat in place of the vat sensor.
that looks like an esslinger aluminum head on there so i will hazard a guess its got billet rods and is fully studded. If you got enough turbo you should be able to make a claw hammer reliable 450. whatever the head can flow the bottom end will take and ask for more.
Just threw a few things out there off the top of my head but provide some additional details and i can try to get this thing figured out. Am willing to take a crack at it anyways
OhSix'
Im sorry, I should have specified that the current system is from "Micro-Tech". I already trashed the SDS system. The wiring harness is a custom made set that was installed with the Micro-Tech system (I did'nt install it, I had a friend do it since my job dont give me enough time for such a project).
The only sensors it uses is a MAP (which is a 3 bar unit), and an ignition signal and air temp sensor. It does not use a TPS or an 02 sensor for input, however, when it goes to the dynoshop, they put their wideband 02 in there to "see" whats going on.
The injectors are Bosch (Siemens) 55 lb/hr units, but I cant remember which impedence style they are..Im thinking low, but I can be wrong here.
55lb hr injectors really dont seem like big enough injectors for 400hp at the wheels. I was figureing you was running sumthing like a 70lb hr.
Am i wrong or just missing sumthing all together?
Wats the duty cycle on your injectors and base Fuel pressure?
Just gunna guess 80% standard duty cycle and around wat 55psi fuel pressure?
Yeah, something like that....75-80% and 45 PSI fuel pressure.
There is a mathematical formula somewhere (the dynoshop knows it) that says in theory, the 55 pounders are good for about 520 horsepower at the flywheel, or around 450 to the wheels.
Humm
HorsePower X B.S.F.C / No. of injectors x Duty cycle= Lbs Per hr need for at crank HP
So with you last wheel HP of 405 well just do this.
405x.60/4x.80=
243/3.2=75.9375
B.S.F.C= Brake specific fuel consumption
N/a car should be between.45-.50
Supercharged between .55-.60
Turboed between .60-.65
that should be the right formula to get injector size.
From what i can tell to keep your injectors under a 80% duty cycle you would have to be running 85psi of fuel pressure
Maybe somone else can tell me what im doing wrong or if im right cause i havent seen too many dyno shops be wrong on wat they were shooting for but 55 for over 400 just dont seem right to me.
243/4=60.75
Man that one has me stumped on how 55s would work with that amount of power even at 50psi youd have to run them at 100% duty cycle which would likely fry them.
I've been told they will handle 85% duty cycle which will raise the threshold somewhat.
I have a set of brand new 72 lb/hr injectors, and they were so rich, even when they lowered all the values, we ended up removing them and going with the 55's.
Ok so please clarify.
with the new micro tech system what running issue are you having? which model are you using??? i looked at the wiring for the lt8 version and it looks to take input from all the factory sensors.
honestly i do not understand how your system is even functioning using only those 3 sensors you listed. sure you can do an approximate fuel calculation if you where given air pressure and temp ,VE of the engine and rmp. however the issue there is that without a BAP sensor to reference the map against (or other supporting sensors) you are guessing on a static value for the original air density. again VE is going to have to be a static value ( which raises the question does the calculation use a ve table for different rpm's or just a single fixed figure)
no O2 sensor says that it is always on the software map and makes no corrections meaning your tuning has to be perfect for every rpm and even more confusing without a tps and using only the sensors you listed it is not possible to calculate load so if what you say is true and you have a fuel injection system running with air pressure, temp and rpm sensors only, there is one place in the world it will run right. on the controlled environment of a dyno . i guess the centrifugal effect of the dyno would provide a controlled loading condition that would allow you to write a tune profile for a given set of barometric conditions but again with the sensors you have given and no way to determine load how is the appropriate ignition advance determined?
as for the injectors. the dyno shop should bee able to determine the real world required size. if wot at max rpm under load is lean at full duty cycle then step up a size as you are moving enough air to warrant it. its really that simple. think of injector as the main jet on a carb it has a max value (main) a min value (kinda the low speed jets) and a slope (needle taper) electronic tuning is like having an infinite amount of control over needle height and contour. even a 4bbl carb has rudimentary throttle position sensing if you consider a vac secondary
Something is not right here.
OhSix'
Oh, the system is a LT-10. Remember, Im not the tuner, so Im nearly at the mercy of the dynoshop. According to them, Micro-Tech has downloadable tunups that they can simply input into the control unit.
You may be right about some of the sensors, I know it does not use the 02, but it does indeed use the TPS sensor (sorry, I had to go double check!!...you're right), so that leaves the MAP, air temp, coolant temp, and ignition signal...that Im aware of!! What other sensors could there be?? I guess the TPS is what tells it what kind of load its under.
My understanding is that it operates in a open loop mode according to the tunup thats installed, but it will make slight changes by itself too...not big changes, but I could be wrong on this too!!
i did a little reading on your efi system and it is suppsoed to have a 02 sensor input built in it along with the use of a crank trigger, air temp, water temp ,TPS plus it controls your iginiton and fuel.
Seems like a very simple an easy to setup. Now tuning it that could be a nightmare.
I think the crank trigger is optional as it works thru the stock distributor. The o2 sensor would work at part throttle & cruise, but the system goes into open loop mode when the pedal hits the metal.
sorry for the long delay in responding. have been out of town on a job and managed to leave my laptop at the g/f 's place so i have been disconnected for a while.
Now that we have an accurate account of the sensors this thing is using we can make some further educated guesses as to what is going on. whether it is on the crank or in the dissy the unit is still using a hall effect sensor to determine crank position
without the o2 sensor in the system it never switches from open loop mode so it is always running on the software maps and no fuel corrections will be made during part throttle operations. not having a sensor present may be causing issues with the system. so try a o2 sensor eliminator wired to the output. usually they consist of a 370ohm resistor to fake a nominal reading.
yes the unit will have "downloadable" tunes from the manufacturer. these are basic tunes that just describe the baseline operating parameters of the attached engine. baseline would follow 35lb injectors and standard ve tables based on a stock flowing setup. it will encompass injector firing order etc, i suspect a look at the code would reveal that it closely matches the pe or la3 programming that was found in the best factory computers. that being said one must still customize the tune to operate with your combination. I am suspecting that your dyno shop may not have a very good handle on the whole process as their inability to get your combo running properly with the larger injectors would indicate to me that they are not writing the proper values into the unit to actually "describe" the injectors to it and are just using ignition timing and injector pulse width modifications to "tune " the system.
as a further point on the large injectors are you using a rising rate fuel pressure regulator? this will further richen the mixture on boost as the increased pressure offsets the fuel delivery slope of the injector. really with the large ones you should be able to tune with a single rate fpr and get much better results. the only reason to raise the fuel pressure is to achieve more flow than the quoted capacity of the injector at its base fuel pressure (usually 40 psi) so a factory brown top rated at 35lbs/hr at 40 psi may flow 38 lbs/hr at 45 psi. this gets exacerbated with a large injector. a 75 lb/hr at 40 psi injector is gonna flow 80ish at 45 psi
anyhow if we assume that your dyno shop is not manned by monkeys and they really do know how to set this thing up my money is still on the ect sensor as an intermittent source of shytty performance. especially if the tuneup was written with a faulty one. BTW there are two types of this sensor available . one has a solid metal tip and the other uses a composite end. avoid the ones without a metal tip. with the amount of cash you have spread around on different systems and tuning a 40 dollar sensor is cheap insurance.
OhSix'
Well, what happened was the fuel pump was going out and we did'nt know it...yet. They were cranking the fuel pressure up because it was'nt supplying the needed amount.
After they had the pressure cranked up, and trying to run the injectors at full capacity, it was still failing.
So I was like "what the F"??...I took the fuel pump off and took it apart....the magnets that are expoxied to the main case, came loose and they were spinning with the electric armature!!
Sh!t!!...so I tried to expoxy them back in place, but it did'nt work still.
So I bought another pump (expensive!!...Aeromotive A-1000), and put it on.
Now the fuel pressure was way up there, so we had to lower it. But I could'nt get it go lower than 60 PSI...and I had it all the way backed off!!
Again...what the F??
So I investigated the FP regulator, and it was fine, but as a precaution, I put another brand new one on, and still I could'nt get the pressure down enough. So I had to run a 2nd fuel return line so it would bleed off enough fuel and pressure to get it down into the 40's :mad:
Right now, the injectors need to be reset, as well as almost everything else because I have not yet been back to the dyno shop to get it dialed in.
I was busy putting in the rollbar and fabbing the rear pan and tray for the tank and battery.
This shop knows what they are doing, they specialize in Micro Tech systems and tuning, so I know Im in good shape there, I just gotta get all this other crap in order so I can get it back over there!!
Hey what master cylinder are you running with your rear discs?
I gunna be putting a TC 8.8 with discs under my bobcat and i want to make sure i have a master cylinder that will work with it.
I have the stock Pinto M/C on it right now, but you would be better to use one from a Mustang SVO as they had discs in the rear so they are valved right.