As youve probably seen me post, i picked up a 79 pinto (2.3/auto) last saturday thats been sitting for 16 years. It ran when it was parked but had a knock in the engine or the transmission i was told. I cant get it started to find out for sure whats wrong. I put on a carb from my 76 that i know works (drove it around just earlier today lol) and hooked it up to an electric fuel pump. I know it has fuel. I tested the spark and it did light up the bulb, but it was pretty dim. I noticed the coil and the control module were very, very, hot. All i'd done was crank on it for a few minutes. I removed the control module a few days ago because i had noticed sticky stuff had run out from behind it. It was like that when i picked it up so its been that way 16 years. I think that either there is not enough spark to start it (tho it did hit a couple of times) or there are some valves froze open or something. It doesnt sound the same as my 74 and 76 and they are both 2.3s also. I've seen a little smoke linger in the throat of the carb but no backfiring or anything. I adjusted turned the distributor as far as it would go in both directions a little at a time and it doesnt seem to help any. It would stumble some when i pushed it up close to the block tho. I am kind of at a loss here because i KNOW its getting fuel, its getting spark (maybe not enough volts?), and air (obviously) and its cranking over... so theoretically it should start right? Like i said i suspect stuck valves, or the distributor/control module/coil is bad (one or all three). What do you guys think?
Start with the basics. You never know what other people might have done 16 years ago and forgot, and/or are afraid to tell you about.
The car is in a fully unknown condition. If It were mine, and it would not start with spray ether, I would check for spark, valve timing, ignition timing, and compression (maybe not in that order).
If all that checks good it should run, at least on ether (or carb. cleaner).
That ignition box sounds like it has issues. I would LOOK VERY WELL at the entire engine harness for a possible cause (damage to the wires,...). I would hate to install a known good one to test, and have the car do that to the good one.
Did you say you were CRANKING it for a few minutes? All at one time? If so, not good. Give it a good rest after 20 seconds or so.
Almost anything electrical that is hot (without the engine running) has either a short or a bad connection, maybe both.
Bill
No didnt do the cranking all at once. i gave it a rest for a few seconds after every try. I tried a compression test on the #1 cylinder and it wouldnt blow anything on the guage. It did however release a little bit of pressure when i pushed the release button. I dont know if maybe my compression guage has a problem (i just bought a cheap chinese made guage from harbor freight) or if the engine really isnt blowing any compression. When i took the plug and the guage out of that cylinder and cranked it with the hole open i did feel air coming out. I am kind of thinking that there is a problem in the head somewhere. As i said the engine doesnt sound the same while cranking as the same engines do in my other two pintos. A cylinder that wasnt compressing would make the engine turn over faster atleast from my experience which makes it sound different, and this one actually seems to be turning a little slower. Is it possible the distributor could be causing the module and coil to be getting hot, or is it likly the module? I'll look for damaged wire and things but i think its all good. I'll check the rest of the cylinders with my guage, and my other pinto, to see if i get any readings. Then i'll know if the guage works or not.
Put a little motor oil down the spark plug openings. This will help seal the rings. If it's been sitting there's a real posibility of corrosion inside the cylinders.
The epoxy running out of the ignition box is a BAD thing. That means it got hot. Most likely it's toast. My '74 was converted to duraspark, I melted down the box, but still got intermittent , weak spark. Not enough to run though.
Hope this helps.
Quote from: crazyhorse on October 04, 2007, 09:57:11 PM
Put a little motor oil down the spark plug openings. This will help seal the rings. If it's been sitting there's a real posibility of corrosion inside the cylinders.
The epoxy running out of the ignition box is a BAD thing. That means it got hot. Most likely it's toast. My '74 was converted to duraspark, I melted down the box, but still got intermittent , weak spark. Not enough to run though.
Hope this helps.
Oh believe me the ignition box is still getting hot :D lol. So is the coil. But i just got in from testing stuff, the ignition will still throw a blue spark about 3/8" wide on the tester i have. I didnt open up the gap any further to test but i figure if it will gap 3/8" with a blue spark, it should do well enough in the spark plug in the cylinder, too. You could be onto something with adding oil into the cylinders. I also tested compression sucessfully this time and this was the sad results:
#1 - 30psi
#2 - 70psi
#3 - 70psi
#4 - 60psi
I suspect the lifters arent working right, or the valves are stuck a little or something like that. I checked the valve timing and ignition timing (#1 piston @ TDC on compression stroke, verified the cam sprocket was in the correct position, and that the rotor was pointing to the number 1 spark plug tower on the cap) All was good there. The firing order is correct, i verified that as well. I will definantly try putting oil in the cylinders as that should boost the compression to a level that would allow it to start if that is the problem. After sitting 16 years it very well could have lost all the oil from the cylinder walls and that would explain the drop in compression. It ran when it was parked is what i was told, the guy said he parked it because either the engine or the trans was knocking. So it had to have had good enough compression to run, then.
I'll replace the control module and coil when i get the money but that may be a little while. Still seems the spark it has should be enough to fire the engine to me but i could be wrong i guess. It did hit a time or two...
Thanks for the advise guys. I'll keep you posted.
Don't get too upset over the readings. PROPER readings need to be made with the engine fully warm and with WOT. It should run on ether even with those numbers.
Adding oil will only work for the test, and only for a short time too. As far as running, it will burn off or foul the plugs.
Yamaha sells (and maybe others too) a GREAT additive to free stuck rings. That stuff has done wonders on a few bikes I have had over the years.
Get good spark, get it running, then warm and re-check the comp.
Bill
The carburetor was off of it when i tested that so it was WOT essentally. I put the carb from my 76 on it earlier but since i drive my 76 as a daily, it cant stay. I am in the process of getting a kit to put in the 79's carb. The oil might help the engine start and get the oil pressure up. Once the oil pressure is up maybe things will start working right again. It may be a long shot but its worth a try right? And also testing again after the oil is supposed to tell you something. I think an improved reading after oil indicates worn rings or in this case could be stuck rings. Still pondering a valvetrain issue tho. Ill get a new box and coil as soon as i can.
Yes, better readings with a small amount of oil will indicate worn rings. Keep in mind that if the rings are worn, it can't hold the oil long. After one or two firings, most of the oil will be gone (burned or pushed past the rings).
Bill
The additive wont do any good until i can get it to run. Once its running it might work itself out some. Like i said ill change the module and coil and see what happens. Also, can i free up the valves or lifters by removing the valve cover and not having to remove the head? If the problem lies within that somewhere...
Quote from: pintoguy76 on October 05, 2007, 12:23:12 AM
The additive wont do any good until i can get it to run...
What additive?
If you are reffering to the ether I mentioned, that is not an 'additive', thats an 'insted of' (spray can).
Bill
"Yamaha sells (and maybe others too) a GREAT additive to free stuck rings. That stuff has done wonders on a few bikes I have had over the years."
Thats the one i was talking about.......
Sorry, I should wake-up before I post.
Yes, the engine needs to run for that stuff to really work.
Did you try the ether? I have had low comp. in engines that would not fire with gas, but would with that.
Bill
I tried carb cleaner but not ether. When you say ether do you mean starting fluid (which contains ether) or do you mean actual pure ether? Ive seen both, but i havnt ever seen pure ether here in town anywhere i cant remember the last place i saw it. And if i remeber right it looked like it was in one of those tall propane cylinder like cans. So that would need a special applicator or something...
It finally started today. The module and coil arent getting hot now. I put some 2 cycle oil in the cylinders and put the carb back on and got it all hooked back up, sprayed some starting fluid in it and it finally took off. still had to screw with it for a while tho to get it to finally start. it would hit and start while my foot was on the floor and run slowly and rough and then stall. then it would hit only here and there but once i finally got it started it starts nice and easy now. I think there may have been alot of oil or something in the cylinders making it so hard to start because it smoked like crazy for quite a while after it started. It runs good and amazingly smooth... but knocks like hell. Its definantly a rod. Atleast i got it to run tho lol. Thats what i wanted. Now i know i need a motor, or, if the crank isnt boogered up maybe i can just put a new bearing in it and run it i dunno. What do you think? Also, i am not sure if i have a C4 trans or a C4 trans, but at they longer than the 4speed transmissions? I can remove the engine and trans together on the 2.3/4 speeds (but it likes to scrape on the core support :() i was wondering if maybe i could do the same on this car. However if the auto trans is longer i probably couldnt do that.
Quote from: pintoguy76 on October 05, 2007, 07:49:07 PM
It finally started today. It runs good and amazingly smooth... but knocks like hell. Its definantly a rod.
Hello pintoguy76,
I would have sworn that I had a rod knock ot piston pin going out on my Green 72 Pinto. Turned out to be a BLOWN HEADGASKET
The engine ran smooth at idle but knocked like heck under load....
From Pintony
Thats very strange. I guess its possible. I had low comp numbers (#1 was really low lol) but i should probably retest it. Will be interesting to see its numbers now that its run a while. BTW, this knock is prettty bad even at idle. It actually seems to somewhat go away at higher RPM. How did you discover the headgasket was the problem?
What was causing your module and coil to get hot? DId you just swap them out?
PintoGuy76,
I bought a 78 Cruising wagon years ago and it had a little knock that went away when it warmed up. Well I drove it till the knock just got louder and louder and finally I took it apart. I can't remember which one but one of the pistons was broken( like the skirts were broke off) and it looked broken. When I took it to the motor shop then to get it bored the motor guy did say something about excessive clearences in the 2300 motors. Aside from Pintonys suggestion about the head gasket breech your engine might have a broken piston. Of course you said that it was not burning oil(no smoke). This was something that I experienced. Keep at is 76 your getting allot of valuable experience.
High_Horse
Quote from: pintoguy76 on October 06, 2007, 01:00:03 PM
How did you discover the headgasket was the problem?
I pulled the engine and could not find a problem with the bottm end...
So I pulled the head.
From Pintony
Quote from: TIGGER on October 06, 2007, 03:52:34 PM
What was causing your module and coil to get hot? DId you just swap them out?
I guess it was just because i had been cranking on it too much i dont know for sure. It probably is bad, tho. Before i even put a battery in it and even tried to start it, i noticed the epoxy has started running down the inner fender. Which tells me that happened 16 years ago. lol. I am sure it will need a new module and maybe more. I notied yesterday the plug wires are blue with an orange boot, and say duraspark on them as well as "1979". That sounds to me like original plug wires!! :surprised: :amazed:
Quote from: High_Horse on October 06, 2007, 05:36:54 PM
PintoGuy76,
I bought a 78 Cruising wagon years ago and it had a little knock that went away when it warmed up. Well I drove it till the knock just got louder and louder and finally I took it apart. I can't remember which one but one of the pistons was broken( like the skirts were broke off) and it looked broken. When I took it to the motor shop then to get it bored the motor guy did say something about excessive clearences in the 2300 motors. Aside from Pintonys suggestion about the head gasket breech your engine might have a broken piston. Of course you said that it was not burning oil(no smoke). This was something that I experienced. Keep at is 76 your getting allot of valuable experience.
High_Horse
The knock at startup is piston slap. This knock is consistant all the time. If i rev it way up it seems to stop... but thats probably bad bad bad lol. Actually that almost sounds like a main bearing doing that but id swear this is a rod. Id hate to be under the hood if it flung/hurdled a rod thru the block at me. lol. I'll probably pull the engine and check it out. It shouldnt take too long. I have a spare engine from a 79 i parted out back in may, but it hasnt run in several years but it was supposed to be good. No easy way of knowing without putting it in the car and starting it. I probably should put it on the stand, flip it upside down, and replace the seals and bearings. And pan gasket too of course (but then again while im at it i should replace the oil pump.... rebuild the head, etc LOL.) I'll probably just drop it in and run it until hopefully i can fix the original one. Its only got 97k on it (hard to believe its knocking already). Somone also mentioned (as i have heard before) that some 2.3s didnt get oil holes drilled into the rods so maybe this one was one of those that didnt get the oil holes and was never fixed under warranty. As for the 76, I depend on it to take me everywhere i go. I think i am going to put that project off to the side until this 79 is done then i can depend on it (hopefully). Then i'll take the 76 apart and do somework to it. I've noticed its smoking quite a bit latly, it has a burned valve in cylinder 3 and probably needs valve seals so i'll rebuild the head and install a T5 and rebuild the suspension, and fix the 1/4 panel damage it has. May even leave the engine alone, and just take it out and install a 2.3 turbo like i've been wanting to do for a while. It's got an 8 inch rear so all i have to do is drop it and the trans in place get it all hooked up correctly and go. And actually this engine did smoke quite a bit....it might have been from all the 2 cycle oil i stuffed in the cylinders burning off (i make it sound like it was alot but it really wasnt).... or it could have damaged valve seals from sitting for so long.... or the oil ring could be stuck still or it could have a broken piston... or (the list goes on). Anyways. I have a brand new unused set of silvolite 2.3 pistons. They are standard size. If it turns out i have a broken piston, can i hone the cylinders and install these new standard pistons (that ive had on the shelf for years) with new rings and be ok? Its got 97k on it, i really expect no less than 200k from a 2.3, i have seen many of them go alot longer than that. Point being, with only 97k the bores should be somewhat decent still to be able to use standard pistons, plus i have them on the shelf and they'll probably never get used otherwise. (what was i thinking when i bought standard pistons?) Naturally, if it gets the new pistons/rings it will get pretty much new everything else. Bearings, seals, pumps (oil and water, getting a new water pump anyways) gaskets, and atleast new seals and bearings in the head.
Quote from: Pintony on October 06, 2007, 05:45:57 PM
I pulled the engine and could not find a problem with the bottm end...
So I pulled the head.
From Pintony
I'm gonna pull this engine and see what i can see. I'll check it all out, bearings and pistons, and if i dont find a problem ill pull the head. Thanks for the heads up. I'll keep you all posted. It might be a few days before i do anything else. I've got a killer toothache that has swollen my gum up on the right side. I look like ive got half a golf ball in my mouth on that side. I dont feel like doing much altho ibuprofen helps alot so maybe ifi keep taking that, i can get some work done on this car
Feeling better. Got the engine and trans out. Found a busted piston in cylinder 2. Engine has 97k on it. Can I get by with putting in new pistons and rings? Would there normally be a ridge in there that would need reamed out before the old pistons will come out with only 97k? The engine ran incredibly smooth and quiet (except for of course the busted piston). Hope to get this going soon. I have a spare engine from another 79 i could put in it but i have not heard it run. Its supposed to run, but i have never heard it. Dont know how many miles are on it, etc. Came from a car i parted out, but couldnt start it. The wiring was all cut up and stuff. Hate to hook it up to this auto trans and then have to rip it back out if it doesnt run. Its so much more work installing and removing an auto trans than it is a manual. lol
PintoGuy76,
I would bore it to the next size over. If you feel around inside that #2 hole you should feel a worn spot down there where the piston goes from the downward motion to the upward motion, that hopefully is not to deep to bore to the next size. Mine wasn't. Piston to bore clearance is supposed to be 0.0014 to 0.0022. I'll bet that bore is 0.003 or is badly tapered toward the bottom. I had my machinist shoot for 0.0011 and I let the rings wear to the bottom specs. This was acually the turning point in my Piston to wall additute and I have never had an engine bored to over 0.0015 and I don't even look in the book. Here is a fun fact....I had my machinist hold a bore in my 2800 v-6 to .0008 at the rough cut and he said I was crazy and it would never work...I drove that car (twas ThunderPinto) for ten years till I did the v8 conversion.
High_Horse
Ok. I am taking a chance and installing the 2.3 ive had laying around as a spare. It came from a 79 I parted out back in may. It was "supposed" to run. But i have never seen or heard it run. I know basically nothing about it. Dont even know how long its been sitting. Its alot of work so i hope it runs. I was well on my way to getting the engine back in today when i hit a roadblock. The engine came from a car with a manual transmission. (Can you see where i'm going? lol) While looking at something i happened to notice that the torque converter slips in the end of the crankshaft right where the pilot bearing is at. Dangit! How the world do you remove that lil bugger? I was doing so well, too. I just left the pilot bearing in my 72 chevy when i put the engine in it (its automatic, truck the motor came from was manual) and it was fine. So i was just going to leave this one in also. Then i realized theres a little thing that sticks up out of the converter and fits into the back of the crank. Cant go on until its out. Ive heard of using a slide hammer but ive never seen one before and dont know how it works. I just hope this engine really is good. Or atleast good enough to last until i get a 2.3 turbo for it. I have problems with the city having unlicensed vehicles around, so i have to do something with it to get it to pass state inspection atleast. Then it can sit all it wants... as long as the tires are up, it isnt visibly inoperable, and its tagged. Somewhere in this neighborhood is a tattle tale. They dont come looking for violators, they just come verify when complaints are received. If it werent for this problem, i'd just leave it sitting until i could do it right.
Yup,I ran into the same problem on my cruising wagon last winter. You need to remove it in order for the torque converter to seat properly. The hook for my slide hammer was too big so I ended up chiseling it out. I tried the grease trick but it did not work for me. I too was on a roll and hit a 4 hour road block with that stupid pilot bearing. Needless to say, once I got it out, I quit for the day. Good luck man
I thought about chiseling it out too. I dont have a chisel so i will have to go get one. Maybe ill have sometime today to work on it.
If I have problems with those I either use a small part of a hacksaw blade in a visegrip (score it then hit it with a punch) or I use a small hook I made and a dent puller. One or the other always works.
Bill
I got the piot bearing out today.... in a milion pieces :D ... got the trans bolted up... started putting on some of the accessories..then it started raining. Dangit. Always something in my way of progress. The storm should blow thru quick, maybe i can go out there and roll around in the mud. Or just wait until tomorrow, not sure which.
PintoGuy76,
Have you never herd of Galoshes. Get out there and Get-er-Done.
Oh...And inspect your lifting system for adiquate stability. ;D
Mudder_Horse
I did end up out there again. I got the engine and transmission back in the car. Got the engine bolted down, but the transmission is only supported on a jack. Thats as far as i got. Speaking of the ift, i broke one of the wheels last night. I was working in the dirt (well, somewhat mud now) and it didnt want to move. I forced it to move :D and it ripped one of the wheels apart. lol. That did indeed make it a bit lopsided but i got it in. Going to go out in a lil while and finish it up. Hopefully i can get it to start today. Will have to "borrow" the carb from the 76 again. One of these days i'll get the 79s carb back together. Just right now in between pay-days, $30 is alot of money for a kit to me. :D Think i'm gonna have to have a master cylinder before i can drive it, too. The reservoir is full, no leaks anywhere but the pedal goes strait to the floor. Feels as tho the pedal isnt even connected to anything. I think that happened when i rescued my POS 72 chev after it set only a measly little 3 years. It had to have a MC too. Will keep this posted.
It started today. Took it a bit to get going just like the last engine but it runs pretty good. I did notice the blowby seems pretty bad tho. Its smoking out the vent in the oil cap. That MIGHT work itself out but i am kind of doubting it. That would be too nice to happen to me. LOL. Never know tho. :)
It runs and drives now. I had to put a master cylinder on it. Got it put on, bled the MC and all 4 brakes in proper order and now the brakes work pretty good. However there must be a warped rotor (or maybe its all those grooves i found in that one?) because the pedal pulses up and down and slows down as the car slows down. The brakes are metal to metal on the right front and have made 2 little grooves in the rotor. Car will need a tune up i think, (did mention it has the original 1979 duraspark wires on it? :O) and still needed hoses and clamps. Also needs a new water neck. The old one has rusted to nothing. with all this said i was able to keep water in it so i could move it up and down the street once. It'll need flushed out pretty good before its driven, new upper and lower radiator hoses, a new tstat and housing, gonna get a new waterpump wether it needs it or not, and the heater hoses well lets just say those are gonna have to wait. Thats alot more work than i am up for at the moment. I had to cut the hose that runs from the tstat housing to the heater hose.. its a short little section that connects the tstat housing to the metal line. I replaced it with a short piece of heater hose but that has kinked it up and cant be letting anywater thru. Do they make a special molded hose for that or am i doing something wrong? Its only like 3 inches long... lol. Anyways thats it for this update i think.
Good job! As for the 5/8" 90 degree heater hose, I replaced mine a few years back. I bought it at Napa, it was like $7-$8.
Im still kinda broke and havnt gotten the title to the car yet but the guy should have it any time now. He had to apply for a lost title. I did have a lil bit of cash that i could spend on the car so today i bought a new thermostat housing (the old one rusted to nothing) and a thermostat and gasket. Ill put it on tomorrow. Might get a new wtr pump for it too... so the engine part will be done. Still need upper and lower radiator hoses, a way to hook that one last heater hose up (ill explain that in a minute), a carburetor kit and brake pads. Ive been using the carb from my 76 to start it and run it. Also that reminds me i accidently ran over the kickdown rod for this thing so i need one of those too. It's all bent up. I took it off because it was in the way, i couldnt figure out how it get it back on right. (This is my first automatic pinto). Cant wait to get it fully drivable. Now for the heater hose thing. I found a plastic 90 degree elbow, the guy at the parts store said he didnt have any 90 degree rubber hose elbows I'll have to use a section of 5/8" hose on each end of this 90 degree plastic elbow i got to be able to hook it up. :O that will take 4 clamps. Not sure i want to do that. But anyways ill keep looking for that if this doesnt work out very well.
PVC hoses have weird bends in them, maybe you can find one with the right diameter and trim to fit? Just a thought. Also, I think I remember Chevy having a weird 90 bend hose on top of the water pump. Been a while since I've played with a bowtie, so I may be wrong.