Check this out:
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/videos/PIR%209-28%20run%207.MOV
If John Wayland can turn a Datsun 1200 into a 12 second Electric Dragster what do you think we could do to a Pinto? I'm gonna find out. Picked up a 1980 Pinto Sedan a few weeks ago for $100. I'll probably visiti this list often for some Pinto Know How.
John has other videos posted http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
electrabishi at ak dot net
Mike,
I actually had this in mind orginally when I picked up my 74 Wagon. Do a lot of research before you begin. In the last couple of years there have been some real cool advances in motor controllers and motor designs. This is another good site:
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/
With the right amount of research and a solid design you will be real happy.
Jake
I've actually done this to my Mitsubishi Pickup. http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/756
Its pretty fast, for my daily commuter. Enough torque to break the tires lose in 2nd gear. I'm just afraid I'm going to break the tranny or rear end. Soooo, thus the Pinto project to set up as a racer. I'll be using two of the motors like in my truck and a 2000 Amp controller. Looking to see ~900 ft-lbs torque and ~450 H.P. My dilema is trying to find a suitable donor axle to build up. Would a built 9" hold 900 ft-lbs? If so it would no doubt be expensive. I'm thinking that for my first go at a dragster I'm going to use the Sterling 10.25 with 4.11 gears that came off my old F-350. Its sitting in my back yard for free. I'd just need to cut it down ~5in on each side. It'll be heavy, but I won't break it right away.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
Well a properly built 8" will do the job. The car just needs to be setup right. There won't be any tires you can get to fit that will handle that torque. You need to have it come in at the right time. Just not all at the same time.
Jake
very cool!
Quote from: Gaslight on October 14, 2006, 03:59:27 PM
Well a properly built 8" will do the job. The car just needs to be setup right. There won't be any tires you can get to fit that will handle that torque. You need to have it come in at the right time. Just not all at the same time.
Jake
Knowing that White Zombie (the dautsun 1200) had problems with welds cracking early on even with the professionally built 9" I'm not so sure I'd trust ~900 ft lbs to an 8". I'd bet a 9" could be built up to handle it fine, however now we're talking serious money. The thing about series wound DC motors is that they develop maximum torque at 0 (thats zero) RPM, which is right where you want your torque, for launching. I can't trust that I'd get the car "set up right" as you say, early enough to keep from melting a perfectly good 8" rear-end. I've checked the yards for used 9" but can't find any of the good 'N' cases, as if that needs to be stated :( There is a 3.00 locker 9" off a Lincoln in the yard they want $105 for. I may wind up at least getting it for the housing to start off with. However the Ford 10.25 is free, but massively heavy. You gotta love a Pinto to put this much effort into it I suppose.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
i'm going to wake this thread up....i'm looking at a early 80's chevett with an electric conversion already done.....needs new batteries ect i was thinking about using it as a daily driver....any thoughts?
A little Chevette should (could) be pretty efficient. Is it advertised somewhere? Do you have a link so I could have a look at what they're trying to sell you?
I just ordered the 348Volt 2000 Amp motor controller today for my Pinto dragster. http://cafeelectric.com/products/zilla/index.html
http://www.evsource.com/tls_controllers.php
Thats 348V X 2000A /746 = 932 HP from the batteries.
Subtract 5% for controller loss, 5% for motor loss and 10% for driveline loss I figure 746HP to the wheels. I'll be looking at 700 - 800 ft-lbs of torque though. Great for launching a 2500lb car. Definitely need a well built 9" rearend.
Mike
Well, I had to look it up, but about a week ago I was reading about a guy that did the conversion on a Jeep Cherokee, and it even had working 4WD. His site has a very good buildup with lots of pics. Here is the link:
http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/home.php
my buddy has it...i'll see if i can get info and pictures from him.
Yeah, Thats Nick Viera who built this while he was in highschool. He's now going to college and doing an intern with FireFly the industrial battery spinoff from Caterpillar. His documentation helped me to decide to do my Mitsubishi Pickup conversion. I kept the 4WD intact as well http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/756
Driving electric is only costing me $30/mo to do my 500 miles a month. Thats compared to the $120 I was spending in gasoling for my truck before the conversion. It was a pretty fun project. Now I'm going to build up a 12 second dragster out of my 1980 Pinto. That car will finally get some respect. Poor thing :-)
QuoteWell, I had to look it up, but about a week ago I was reading about a guy that did the conversion on a Jeep Cherokee, and it even had working 4WD. His site has a very good buildup with lots of pics. Here is the link:
http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/home.php
So I picked up a 9" axle housing of an '85 Bronco. Its got the thick housing material and the larger bearing races. I'm going to have a shop shorten the housing but there'e no one in town that can cut and respline the axles. What the process to do this. Would it be better for me to just buy axles built to length? THe axles that came with the housing are 31 spline, no taper whatsoever. In fact the axle itself is slightly larger then the splines, for the whole length. I just don't know how much it'll cost for me to mail them away, have them cut and splined, and shipped back. Might be better to buy new?
Mike
where are you located? other than shipping ( and of course the outright cost of the parts) what you need should be readily available. try getting ahold of a National Dragster magazine. The number of 1st rate companies that offer parts/assemblies is enormous. Your biggest problem will be with whom to do business
I'm in Anchorage, Alaska. There's decent size IHRA track just north of us and I can't bellieve there is no shop in town that will respline the axles. But so far no luck. I'll pick up a racing magazine and see what I can get. I'll need to buy a differential with a race case anyway when I figure out what gear I need. Maybe I could pick up race axles from the same place.
Thanks
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
Well we have the motors on order from http://www.go-ev.com/ The dealer I bought from however is http://www.evsource.com/ in case anyone was interested.
we ordered a TransWarP9 and a WarP9 and will couple the 1.125" tail shaft of the TWarp9 to the 1.125" shaft of the WarP9 and run them in line. The newly released TransWarP9 comes with a hardened 1.370" splined drive shaft that will direct drive the rear end.
I have a heavywall 9" housing from an '85 Bronco that I've got cleaned up and the spring perches and shock mounts shaved off. I need to now figure out the dimensions to cut it to fit the Pinto. Does anyone have manufacturer data on a 1980 Pinto rear end? My particular donr car has the 6.75" rear. I've been under it with a tape measure but without yanking the whole axle out I can't be too sure of the numbers. What I need are the outside of the housing flange to the center of the pinion shaft so I can recreate the setup for the 9" housing. That driveshaft tunnel looks to be real small. Any kind of beefed up drive shaft will have some pretty close tolerances so I need to be sure to get the measurements as accurate as possible. Anyone with experience building an rear axle for a Pinto??
Thanks
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak
First things first. If your claims are correct on the 800/900 ft lbs. TQ you better put some tire under the car! You'll need to back half the car, 4bar,40 spline axles,spool.
Tires and wheels are first get them to fit under the car, measure the wheel mounting flange to flange that's the axle length, build the housing from that point.
Just my view on this, I think you should buy a old super gas car and convert it to a electric car you'll be way ahead of the game! If the car has the potential you claim you will have to deal with all the NHRA SFI safety regulations.. Buy a old proven drag car and have fun..
http://www.racingjunk.com/search?searchString=ford+pinto
This is what you need to start with.. Not a 100.00 dollar pinto!
(http://static.racingjunk.com/1/ui/8/97/6872603759566.jpg)
71 Ford Pinto
Alston 2x3 full tube chassis
narrowed 9" rear end
33 spline axles
488 gear ratio
all aluminum interior
15x12 center line rear wheels
15x 3.5 center line front wheels
$4,200.00 / $1800.00 this week!
phone # 479-938-0168 if no answer please leave a message.
This is one of the most intresting threads I have read here...
I was very intrested in the EV story storm and all the crap the auto manufactures folded in mseveral years back..
EV Pinto... WHAT a concept... I went to your site and spent way to much time following links and educating myself..
I 'think' I'm hooked!
We'll its been a while since I updated on my progress. I scrapped the '80 after gutting it for some of the hardware I'll use for spares. This is for map351, I won't be converting a $100 Pinto anymore :( I found a $400 one ;D with a straight stock body and an 8" rear to toy around with. But the Dutchman Motorsports Heavy Duty Street & Strip Ford 9" with Strange N case, 35 spline race axles and Detroit locker will be under it for its first day on the track.
You can see a few photos and more details here http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1093. After doing more research on the motors and talking with the long time EV racers I'm upward revising my estimated torque capability to ~1000 ft-lbs. My primary goal here however is to keep it a street legal/strip machine. ..at least for starters. I need something that I can drive to shows and not have to trailer.
Also the National Electric Drag Racing Association (www.nedra.com) has a Street Conversion (SC), Pro Street (PS) and Modified Conversion(MC) classes of which the record I'll first be shooting for is in the SC class for 348V+ machines. This by the way is the White Zombie record of 12.151 @ 106.25 mph. This was the last record John was able to post before the rules changed knocking his Datsun with the Ford 9" rear end out of the "stock" class. Get out the latest version of your NHRA rule book and see they have already adopted the NEDRA rules for safety on electric vehicles :
So along with all the regular NHRA rules I' will also have to comply with the NEDRA rules as well. The tubs and slicks will have to wait until I've exhausted what I can do with the stock car. I've pretty much concluded though that at the minimum I'll have to connect the front half and rear half frame members. So if anyone has advice on how to proceed with that process I'm all ears. CalTracs traction bars for now, 4-bar when I'm required to fit a roll bar. :-)
White Zombie hit 11.466 with a borrowed set of lithium-ion batteries and is now forced into its new 6 point roll cage. No more stock class postings for that Datsun :-\ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Fmy4tWvr8c The batteries you wonder??? ...borrowed from Killacycle with its recent 7.824 @168 MPH record setting run at Pomona a couple weeks ago http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c8eLH8x_-Y ...... well back to work - I'm working on the motor mounts tonight. Next week will be the rear-end so I can get measuremetns for the drive shaft. My batteries are scheduled to ship December 11th.
thanx for the www.nedra.com link!
QuoteI'm upward revising my estimated torque capability to ~1000 ft-lbs.
With that TQ # in a 2500 lb car it should be in the mid 8s... Or are these cars that heavy?
QuoteKillacycle with its recent 7.824 @168 MPH
I watched the Killacycle make a pass, impressive for a exhibition show bike. If it did had to run in the Pro classes it's about a .90 slow, i think the Harleys would eat it for lunch on a level playing field..
An electric Pinto would still be 10 seconds faster than stock.
The Torque/Power curves for electric motors look way different than gas engines, so the normal benchmarks used for estimating 1/4 mile times don't quite hold. While a series wound DC motor produces its max (almost unbelievable) torque at zero RPM, it tapers of sharply as RPMs rise. And so while an EV gives impressive hole shots the key is to get out ahead and up to speed quick. The gasser will be getting into its peak power band somewhere around the time the EV torque is tapering off. While the Torque curve has a large excursion compared to the gas car, the power band is wide and almost flat across the entire RPM range.
My pinto was 2350 lbs stock. With all the junk removed I lose some weight, but the motors weigh 300# a pair and the batteries will weigh in around ~850 lbs. I'm figuring the car will weigh between 2700 and 2800 lbs when I'm done with it.
Yes it will be 10 seconds faster than the stock Pinto version. But more importantly it will be faster than most stock Mustangs, 'Vettes and Vipers too, and still only cost about 7 cents worth of electricity to run it down the track.
The real strength of electrics in racing though is in bracket racing. Their performance is repeatable. Variations in battery temperature, track conditions and driver consistency are really the only thing that affects the variability of the times. No throttle linkages, fouled plugs, turbo lag, clutch slip, fuel mixture, firing advance, lifters, timing chains or belts, ... its just like my kids electric John Deer tractor. Just stab the pedal and hold on for dear life ;-) Dennis Berube bracket races his electric rail http://www.currenteliminator.net/home/ , however his claim as the fastest 1/4 mile EV has now been eclipsed by the Killacycle.
Your still going from A to B 660' or 1320'
If you know A to B time you can estimate the extra time to C if you assume constant acceleration. However the sharp contrast in 1000 ft-lbs at the launch versus the ~200 ft lbs at the end would give you a more optimistic ET if you assume a constant 1000 ft lbs the whole track. I know that the gassers don't exactly do that. But years and years of empirical data that says if a car does the 60 ft in 1.58 seconds the 1/4 mile time will be 11.37 seconds at 117 mph. The calculator is built either assuming constant acceleration or based on a typical power curve for an internal combustion engine. Those calculators are slightly off for the EV racers, but after several years of gathering data there will be accurate calculators for that as well.
Update on the electric pinto project...got the motors mounted ;D
You can see a couple pics here http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1093
I'm also copying a post I sent to my EV list. There are links at the bottom to a few more pics with a little better resolution.
Its been going slower that I anticipated but I still hope to make it to the track for the first Test & Tune of the season at my track on May 21st. Since the motors are in I still need to put in the new 9" rear end, set my pinion angle, get a new spring pack to take the 850 lbs of batteries and add 1" ride height for the bigger tires. I'll have a drive shaft built by a local shop and that should round out the mechanical stuff. Then I mount the controller, contactors, cables, build battery trays (one in front and one behind the rear axle) and then test it.
Does anyone have ~450 HP in a Pinto, or ~1000 ft-lbs of Torque. I'm woried about the chassis taking a beating. Other than connecting the front and back half frame members what other frame stiffening techniques could I use?
(post to EVDL with links to additional motor pics):
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 12:35 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Crazyhorse Pinto Motors are in :-)
After a couple weeks, measuring, cutting, looking at, measuring again, welding, measuring, looking at, measuring again, welding some more and finally painting....we got the motor mounts finished and tonight the motors went "into the Pinto".
Jim, we didn't Even touch them, so how's that ;-P And the batteries are here now so there is nothing holding us up now....well...almost nothing ;-)
After much concern and re-measuring and several attempts at the drawing board we finally mocked the motors up with wood. And just measured and cut everything to fit. There seems to be huge tracts of real estate inside the Pinto, at least compared to what I've seen and heard about a certain white Datsun 1200. 5/8" terminal clearance on one of the back motor studs and 1/2" on the other. 1/2" under the back motor to the front end cross member. 1/2" each side of the rear motor inside the tunnel. Front CE shaft does not encroach past where the radiator would normally mount. The angle is just right for matching to a rear end (which is next to go in by the way). The gear coupler has over 1/2" clearance over the steering rack (because the space between the motors straddles the steering unit. These things would have a huge downward angle (~11 degrees) if they were Siamese just to clear the top of the tunnel and the top of the steering gear. Having the motors split allows them to set down a couple inches creating the perfect motor angle for the driveline.
Enjoy some pics.
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6198.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6209.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6212.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6213.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6214.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6218.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6220.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6223.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6224.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6225.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6226.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6227.JPG
Mike
So, this is a pure dragster huh? Looks like a great project!
For the people interested, I'll post a link to the Ultimate Subaru Message Board. There's a guy there with an electric '78 Subaru Coupe. This is his summertime daily driver.
http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=81505
I love the idea of converting my Pinto to electric. Though I'd need at least a 50mi range with a leadfoot, as my commute is 24mi one way.
Quote from: electrabishi on January 12, 2008, 03:41:26 AM
Does anyone have ~450 HP in a Pinto, or ~1000 ft-lbs of Torque. I'm woried about the chassis taking a beating. Other than connecting the front and back half frame members what other frame stiffening techniques could I use?
You may want to get in touch with 78Pinto on here. With a twin turbo 383W stroker in his 78, I am sure he's got some ideas.
Only thing I can think of besides subframe connectors would be a full cage, but you may want that anyway just for safety. Rollovers without one look nasty!
Hey Crazyhorse, mostly a pure dragster. It'll still be street legal to drive to shows. And with the exception of the 9" rear end its pretty much a stock conversion.
How long do you stay at work? if you only need 24 mile to get there then presumably you could plug in while working for 4 or 5 hours, eh?
If you're into Subaru's too there's a guy running lithium ion batteries for auto cross here http://www.evalbum.com/464 and http://www.proev.com/MenuE.htm
Mike
I've seen the electric Imp project, it's one sweet piece.
Trouble is, my work frowns on us using a fan, I can only imagine plugging in an EV! I could likely get away with it, but not many others could.
Quote from: electrabishi on January 12, 2008, 03:41:26 AM
...Does anyone have ~450 HP in a Pinto, or ~1000 ft-lbs of Torque. I'm woried about the chassis taking a beating. Other than connecting the front and back half frame members what other frame stiffening techniques could I use?
Mike
Hey Mike,
My Pino is in that HP range - doubt it's near that torque though. I'm running a decently peppy 306 with 275HP of two stage Nitrous on top.
With the zero-rpm torque peak of the electric motor, your chassis *could* sustain some damage but your right foot will be the instigator. Unless you're building it for the electric drags, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Sub-frame connectors are a good idea. I don't have them and my windshield has cracked and I have a gap around the windshield frame on the passenger side.
All in all, the Pinto chassis, even though it is a uni-body is pretty rugged. Having said that, you're in new territory as far as Pinto's go.
A friend of mine had a HI HP Pinto for a long time. He ran 10.5 sec 1/4mi off the bottle, and IIRC sub 9sec on it. When he'd launch, you could watch the upper door frame separate from the jamb. After 25 years of this he stripped it down to media blast the body. When it came back, there were way too many stress cracks to fix.
My reccommendation, beyond the subframe conectors, is a 6pt cage, to keep the chassis from twisting with the torque. Look under the rear end, there aren't any subframes in the back. It's supported purely by the floorpans. Anything you can do to tie the rear of the car together will be an improvement.
Thanks. I'll definitely connect front/back halfs. Thinking seriously about the 6 point cage too, from the start. Any chance you know what a decent 6 pt cage would weigh for a Pinto? Being as I'm new to racing cars I wouldn't know how much the weight of a cage affects 1/4 mile times. I'm hoping the bars will come in not much more than 150 lbs.
Anyone sell these as kits or plans? .. or have a good "how to"?
Thanks much.
The shipping weight in the Pinto cage is 175 lbs
Link to Pinto 8 point cage
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_55820_-1
From Pintony
Chris Alston's stuff is what I'm saving for..
http://www.cachassisworks.com/Home.html
As for the weight of the cage slowing you down, yes it will. 100lbs will add a tenth or so - very coarse rule. Use it only as a gross estimate.
Yeah thats about what I was figuring. But I need to stiffen the chassis somehow and unless someone tells me there's a lighter way the roll bar and subframe connectors will be it.
Whatchya looking at from chassisworks? Did they have roll bars? I didn't see any.
Nice Fab9 rear ends though. I got mine from Dutchman Motorsports in Oregon. Heavy duty housing, Strange gear case, hardened 35 spline race axles. I should be good to go if I don't twist the car in half :-O
Mike
I would like to get a roll cage from Chris Alston - for starters... ;D
I was looking at their front ends and back halves too. It's so tough to find front end parts for the early Pintos.. I am seriously considering just swapping on the Alston front end and being done with it. As for the backhalf... I would like to put some big meats under the rear. Trying to copy the pro-stock look of the Pintos from the 70's. I'd like to run some 32" tall tires and some skinnies up front. Get the wheels in the air on launch.. The only way to get a big tire under there is to tub it so... I am local to his shop and he sponsors a racing series at our dragstrip so I want to give him my business.
Although I don't yet have a roll cage, I would say don't worry about the loss of E.T. The safety and chassis stiffness you'll get will be worth it. Also, won't you need some sort of a frame to house your batteries? They're heavy right? The roll cage would help with that.
What is your application - what will you do with the car?
To answer your last question first. The car will primarily be a dragster for showing off the abilities of electric vehicles at the track. However it will be kept street legal and Il will be taking it to car shows as well as using it as a display at alternative energy fairs and demo's. I already have an electric daily driver so I won't need to put too many miles on the Pinto....It might qualify for Historical Vehicles plates...isn't it a classic at 30 years?
The lead acid batteries weigh 850 lbs. If I could afford an Lithium-ion pack it would only weigh 175 lbs with the same power capability and actually more capacity. I don't have an extra $20K though. So $6K will have to do for a few more years.
So with all that weight in the back I'm working on having made new spring packs. Also too, the whole back floor pan behind the axle will come out and I'll build a tub to hold half the batteries. The other half will go in front of the axle in the back seat area. Maybe if I design it right I could build the "back-half" frame members into the battery trays. Its hard designing from scratch and I'm thinking of buying a back half kit and building the battery trays onto them. Does anyone know of some good pics or article detailing a back half installation?
Next would be the 6-point roll bar. I see a lot of 8-point bars advertised but wonder how a Pitno would benefit if there is nothing under the tunnel to hook the other 2 points to. Plus those two additional points would run right through my front battery tray. Soooo..... may I incorporate a tie in point from the main loop of the bar to the front of the forward battery tray.
Does anyone know if the bolt in back half kits are worth a damn. Or is welding recommended?
Mike
I don't know about any bolt in back half kits. Here is a description of a back half install in a unibody car (65' Mustang).
http://www.cachassisworks.com/Stories/HowCAC-003_WEB.pdf
With all that weight in batteries, I would be planning at least a roll cage and subframe connectors. Depending on where you locate the batteries, you could get away with a minimal amount of fab but with all that torque? I'd be doing some bracing.
Well after three months I got new spring packs, 6 pt roll bar, battery trays, motor controller, switching contactors, Dutchman Motorsports Ford 9" rear end, CalTracs traction bars and some beater batteries (takeouts from my truck) installed and the electric Pinto is on the road! I have 167 miles on the new rear end and the Dutchman tells me to put 500 miles on before I install the race batteries. She's pretty peppy with the 120 volts and 400 amps direct drive into a 3.25 ratio from half dead batteries. I can't wait to get the 360 volt and 1600 amp pack installed. I've been bustin' butt lately to get her ready for the track by opening day May 11th. With gas bumping up against $4/gal there will surely be people asking where to get one. Here are a couple pics. You can see a few more as well as a few details at http://www.evalbum.com/1093
(http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/DSCF6943a.JPG)
(http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/DSCF6951a.JPG)
Are you going to drive the pinto to the track and back?
electrabishi is right I researched elec. car's in late 70's, max hp from dead stop. I had a bet with fellow worker's, I am going to take this Taylordunn cart and tug a Convair airliner 580 6000 hp.. and guess what is was pay up time. Also read book's on solar and how to power house, wasn't worth the start cost and maint., could get elec. for 20 yrs. to break even. Fred ??? :)
This is so cool.. I would like to see videos of the car run or videos from someone driving it inside...
I would LOVE to see videos of the car racing and blowing the 'unsuspecting' doors off the competition..
I have been watching this thread with anticipation!
Sweet..
map351,
With the pack designed for drag racing unfortunately I only expect 25-30 mile range. The track is 55 miles away. So I'll be trailering up to the track. I am driving it every day to work right now though, 15 mile round trip.
Mike
Just wanted to wake up this thread with some results of the electric Crazyhorse Pinto shakedown runs at the Alaska Raceway Park on Mothers Day Sunday. I'm reposting (below) the story I sent to the NEDRA list as well as putting some links to the pics I took. Since I took them, obviously they are of my buddy Hank driving. I'm still waiting for the ones that others took of me, as well as the several video cameras that I comissioned to run. ;D Suffice to say I'm happy with 14.0052 seconds with only half the power dialed into the motor controller. Going from 400 amps to 800 amps dropped us from 16.33 to 14.005 seconds. I'm hoping that the gradual jump from 800 amps to 1500 amps will get us at least another second off the time and plunge us into the 12's. What do any of you racers think a noob could shave off an E/T just by technique alone, all else on the car being the same?
Enjoy,
Mike
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF6943b.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF6951.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF7004.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF7009.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF7011.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF7014.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF7015.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF7018.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF7020.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF7024.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF7025.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF7027.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/First_Time_Slips.pdf
________________________________________
From: Mike Willmon [mailto:]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 1:08 AM
To: 'NEDRA@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: Crazyhorse Pinto debut at 14.0052 seconds
I am so beat from staying up til 3am the last several nights getting the Pinto ready for the track. But suffice to say I have an EV grin that will last me now for several days. Long story short for now. Everything went extremely well for the first day. Confounded the tech inspector whose going to have to research battery tie down designs to find my system is more than adequate. Old gasser rules mentality he thought he might try to get me to put 2 bolts for EACH battery. Anyway, he let us run anyway
We got 4 runs in today, two for me and two for Hank. We alternated starting with me.
1st Run:
16.3329 @ 77.85 mph this was at 400battery amps for the first shake down run.
Didn't meet conditions for series parallel shift
2nd Run Hank talked me into bumping to 500 amps for his extra belly weight.
16.1358 @ 76.52 mph
Hank said it shifted but was pretty mild
3rd Run: I bumped to 800 battery amps and could do a full burnout
(this and the previous two runs were at full tire pressure)
14.2090 @ 90.14 mph
Definite S/P shift now Spectators said they could definitely see it too.
4th run: Hank dropped rear tire pressure to 20 psi (from 44 psi oops) stayed at 800 amps
14.0052 @ 91.42 mph.
Forgot to keep the SLI charging between runs and it flaked out on me when I was staged with 1000 battery amps dialed in. Turning off the Zilla cooling pump allowed it to stay on long enough to get me to the pits. By the time we got it topped off they closed the track at 3pm. It was the opening day Test and Tune and there weren't a whole lot of people there. But they did talk about all the flyers and articles that our PR girl handed to the track announcer.
All in all a fun day and like I said, EV grin will last for several days now. We got 14 seconds which is what I had hoped for on the first day, but not the 100 mph which we could have easily made if we started off at higher currents. Just wanted to play it safe to see how the pony handles. It was solid and like a dream. No wander, no bounce. She just hunkered down and kept pulling all the way to the end. There were a few photographers there that I invited but I didn't touch base with them before we left. I'll get up with them this week and see what we looked like. I believe there was some video taken as well but I'll have to find it. Everyone who stopped by to look were amazed. They were saying "way cool" even for the 76 mph run, heh heh. Wait till they see full power :hypno:
Mike
Hello electrabishi,
Two things I noticed about your Pinto...
You need to lower the car to get it out of the air and install some lexan headlight covers.
If you can? Try to make them a bit concave so the air flows over instead of hitting flat.
These will help the 100MPH goal...
From Pintony
Its actually that high because we are planning taller tires. But we just made our full power runs on Monday and at some point will get into streamlining and weight savings mode. Suffice to say at 12.72 seconds I'm sure we can knock a half second off once the batteries get fully woken up as well as some aero and weight saving mods. Here's a copy of the Press Release I sent out yesterday. Someone put up a video on Youtube from one of our shakedown runs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGx4jCbtHHs Thats my buddies Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 420 HP 420 ft-lbs. He was turning 13.51's He beat us on that day but we were only at 800 amps during that run. We're now at 1500 amps doing 12.7's :lol:
as well as a radio interview I did from the track on Alaska Public Radio Network: http://aprn.org/2008/05/27/what-happens-when-you-dump-800-amps-into-an-electric-ford-pinto-you-win-races/
Press Release follows:
Alaska Electric Vehicle Association
Contact Information: May 27th, 2008
Mike Willmon, President, Alaska EVA
Phone:
E-mail: electrabishi@ak.net
Website: www.AlaskaEVA.org
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
"Electric Crazyhorse Pinto Dragster plunges into the 12 second ET's at Alaska Raceway Park"
ANCHORAGE, AK – During the Prockish Memorial on Monday, Alaska Raceway Park saw its first electric dragster plunge from its debut at 14.0052 seconds @ 91.42 mph in the ¼ mile all the way down to its best of the day of 12.7270 seconds @ 97.00 mph. Mike Willmon and Hank Buettner who are co-owner/builder/drivers of the car, with significant sponsorship by GCI Communications, Inc. and TTU Telecommunications, ran their last 4 runs consistently within .018 seconds, and the top three of those runs within .0053 seconds. This is sure to be a good bracket racer. John Wayland who's 1972 Datsun 1200 "White Zombie" owns the world record for the quickest street legal electric dragster says "the Pinto is only the 3rd such electric car in its street legal conversion class to break into the 12's and of those it's the second quickest". Problems with a battery strap modification performed a few days before kept the Pinto in the 15's all morning but once the problem was resolved they dropped right into a 12.989 second ET, bypassing the 13 second range altogether. Mike and Hank say they've gradually turned up to full power and landing in the high 12's is a good benchmark but that further improvements will likely be hard fought gains. The electric Pinto while optimized for racing still costs only about 25% of what its gasoline counterpart requires to drive on the street. With gasoline at $4/gallon and electricity at $0.13/Kwh Mike says a 75% savings in cost makes it economical enough to drive to work. Mike says you would be hard pressed to find a street car off the lot that can beat the Pinto at the track unless you are looking into the high end and custom performance production units. Details on the Pinto can be viewed at http://www.evalbum.com/1093 and images, video's and regular updates for any records set will be tracked at the National Electric Drag Racing Association website http://www.nedra.com .
In locations where electric drag racing is more prevalent the National Electric Drag Racing Association holds national EVents which draw participants and spectators from all over the country. One such EVent is the "Power of DC" http://www.powerofdc.com which is being held at the Mason Dixon Dragway in Hagerstown, Maryland this weekend May31st-June 1st, 2008.
The National Electric Drag Racing Association exists to increase public awareness of electric vehicle (EV) performance and to encourage through competition, advances in electric vehicle technology. NEDRA achieves this by organizing and sanctioning safe, silent and exciting electric vehicle drag racing events. NEDRA is a coalition of drag racing fans, electric drag racing vehicle owners and drivers, individuals interested in promoting the sport of EV drag racing, EV parts suppliers, EV manufacturers and other environmentally concerned companies and individuals. Working together as a group, we put excitement into electric vehicle drag racing. http://www.nedra.com
Details on the Alaska Electric Vehicle Association can be found at http://www.alaskaeva.org
###
Now that the pinto is running/moving what did it cost to get it to this point?
About $30K in the car itself between the two of us and a couple sponsors:
60 each Enersys Genesis 12V 16XE batteries $5,400.00
Zilla 2K 360V 2000A Controller $4,950.00
WarP9 9" Series Wound DC motor $1,700.00
TransWarP9 Series wound DC motor $2,750.00
Manzanita Micro 50A PFC-50 Charger $3,000.00
Dutchman MotorSports Ford 9" Rear End $2,455.00
New Wheels to fit bigger Ford Lug Pattern $250.00
BF Goodrich g-Force T/A 215-60R14 Drag Radials (two) $264.00
Calvert Racing CAL-TRACS traction bars $350.00
Three Larger Breakers $600.00
KiloVac 3000 Amp Main Contactor $1,000.00
#4/0 Cable and Copper Buss Bars $250.00
Accessory and SLI +12V DC/DC Converter $350.00
Roll Bar Kit $300.00
New Rear Springs $500.00
Rabbit Core Controller for LCD Dash Display $300.00
Spider box for 240V 50 Amp Genset Distribution $300.00
Diesel Genset running Veggie Oil for at track charging $2,000.00
used Ford F-250 for hauling to track $1,500.00
Trailer for Hauling car to the track $1,500.00
Battery Trays fabricated $360.00
Switches, wire, nuts, bolts, odds, ends etc $1,000.00
Body detailing and touch up $500.00
Total $31,579.00
Here's Mine and Hanks best time slips from last Monday:
Mike Hank
Reaction .4979 .3258
60 ft 1.7141 1.7782
330 ft 5.0070 5.0502
ET@ 594 ft 7.3520 7.3841
1/8 mi ET 7.8830 7.9131
1/8 mph 84.75 85.05
1/4 mi ET 12.7270 12.7323
1/4 mph 97.00 97.59
Last year a bunch of the guys I know that race electrics put their rigs up on Dragtimes.com Enough people voted them up to Featured-Car-Of-The-Month status in just a few short months. I was jealous because my electric Pinto had no time slips but I voted from every computer I could every day fore those several months. just yesterday I posted our 12.7270 second time slip and info of the car for all in the drag racing community to see.
If there are people so inclined on this list to bring a Pinto to the forefront on the Dragtimes website then I ask please, let the voting begin ;D
The way you vote it to go to this link http://www.dragtimes.com/Ford-Pinto-Timeslip-15453.html
Scroll down some and Click "Vote"
type in the cryptic image of number and hit enter
It'll take 1 vote from one computer per day
The guys on the EV Discussion List and National Electric Drag Racing Association sites will be watching in anticipation as big bad butt muscle cars get passed by a puny little 12.7 second electric Pinto :o
Cheers,
Mike
Quote from: electrabishi on May 29, 2008, 03:08:49 PM
About $30K in the car itself between the two of us and a couple sponsors:
60 each Enersys Genesis 12V 16XE batteries $5,400.00
Zilla 2K 360V 2000A Controller $4,950.00
WarP9 9" Series Wound DC motor $1,700.00
TransWarP9 Series wound DC motor $2,750.00
Manzanita Micro 50A PFC-50 Charger $3,000.00
Dutchman MotorSports Ford 9" Rear End $2,455.00
New Wheels to fit bigger Ford Lug Pattern $250.00
BF Goodrich g-Force T/A 215-60R14 Drag Radials (two) $264.00
Calvert Racing CAL-TRACS traction bars $350.00
Three Larger Breakers $600.00
KiloVac 3000 Amp Main Contactor $1,000.00
#4/0 Cable and Copper Buss Bars $250.00
Accessory and SLI +12V DC/DC Converter $350.00
Roll Bar Kit $300.00
New Rear Springs $500.00
Rabbit Core Controller for LCD Dash Display $300.00
Spider box for 240V 50 Amp Genset Distribution $300.00
Diesel Genset running Veggie Oil for at track charging $2,000.00
used Ford F-250 for hauling to track $1,500.00
Trailer for Hauling car to the track $1,500.00
Battery Trays fabricated $360.00
Switches, wire, nuts, bolts, odds, ends etc $1,000.00
Body detailing and touch up $500.00
Total $31,579.00
could u get me a list like this to build a low dollar ev pinto.
im only want to go! with being upgradable to 60 mph and 180 miles
Quote from: electrabishi on May 30, 2008, 01:57:08 AM
The guys on the EV Discussion List and National Electric Drag Racing Association sites will be watching in anticipation as big bad butt muscle cars get passed by a puny little 12.7 second electric Pinto :o
I know of a few big big bad butt muscle cars that are about 4 sec faster than you now and drive from coast to coast and don't need a Diesel & a trailer. Then there's the little bad butt muscle cars like the EVO that are daily drivers get great gas mileage and make low 9 sec passes and drive it home more than 50 miles.
Then there's a few pintos on this board in the sub 10sec, and a street driven 2.3 & 2.5 turbo fords in the mid 8s.
30K 12.70 pass your not setting the world on fire or is that your speed controller smokin?
Show me some low 8 sec passes with your car then I'll be a believer...
If Kilacycle was running in NHRA Pro Stock bike it wouldn't make the show..
The electric cars are kool, different, cheap to operate, But they have there own sand box to play in, watch them old dinosaurs they might eat you..
Have fun with your project!
the guy is in relatively uncharted territory here. why put him down? ???
map351,
it only costs me $0.25 to make a pass :D
Yes there are plenty of faster cars. But most of them at the track with a license plate will go down to a 12 second electric Pinto. I can drive the electric to work too :-) I work 7 miles from home and do 6000 miles a year doing it. And it costs me only $400 for the year. Show me a muscle car that will do 6000 miles on $400 in gas :lol: Even if your coast-to-coast muscle car made 30 mpg it would still cost over $800 for 6000 miles of driving. Its all about exploring the alternatives. It works for me to drive to work and can still hold its own in the street brackets. Did I mention its balls on consistent. Between my two runs and my buddy who weighs 100 lbs more than me, we turned in 4 time slips within 0.0180 seconds, and the top 3 of those were within .0055. Should do alright in the brackets, eh?
(12.7270 @ 97.00, 12.7298 @ 97.21, 12.7323 @ 97.59 and 12.7450 @ 97.21 The last one was a little too much wheel slip on the launch.)
And face it, its just plain embarassing to get spanked by a Pinto, and an electric one at that. Sure there are plenty of faster cars. But, like you said, they have their own sand box to play in. ;)
Mike
map351
now I go back and look at your post a little better, I want what you're smokin' ;)
what exactly is "great gas mileage" in a 9 second car? is it measured in gallons-per-mile?
Also, you wanna see low 8 sec from my Pinto ???
IS there such a thing as a low 8 second Pinto.
Like I said I want somma that your smokin' :lol:
Mike
My 80 Pinto is a true daily driver getting 24 MPG and is good for low 10's--high 9's at a cost of only $3,500.00. I appreciate what you are doing with ole sparkie, but it sure aint cheap. I can buy a lot of gas for the difference in price of the vehicles.
I had no idea ;) 24 mpg for a high 9's car is pretty good. It sure ain't the norm though. 24 mpg funny enough was the average mileage for Model T's back near the turn of the century. We've since gone to the moon, sent space craft to other planets and out of the solar system. Yet still today after another turn of a century we're still only averaging 27 mpg. I would drive a car as fast as yours if it got that kind of mileage. But I don't see gas prices going down very much anytime soon and I have to look for alternative ways to have fun. The Pinto was the absolut best choice of a platform for the goals I have for it. If all the items I had to buy to make it electric were mass produced it should only cost $10k to do what I've done. What happened to Ford's noble "under 2000 lbs and under $2000 concept they took with the Pinto?
So let me ask you, with a Pinto that fast, how's the chassis holding up? Roll bars? Sub-frame connectors?
Mike
apintonut inquired about a less expensive cut sheet for a daily driver type Pinto EV conversion.
Here 'tis:
Zilla 1K 156V 1000A Controller $1,975.00
WarP9 9" Series Wound DC motor $1,700.00
Manzanita Micro 20A PFC-20 Charger $1,866.00
160V 250 Amp Breaker $50.00
# 2/0 Cabling and crimp lugs $200.00
Accessory and SLI +12V DC/DC Converter $180.00
Albright SW200 Contactor w/ Magnetic Blowouts $122.00
13 x Group31 AGM or Gel batteries $310 ea $4,000.00
Total $10,093.00
Of course this is mid to high quality components I'm quoting here and would make for a pretty Zippy conversion. Quicker than any plain jane stock Pinto with somewhere between 20 - 30 mile range. The price of lead has almost doubled in the 2 years since I did my truck. But the price of lithium-ion batteries has more than dropped in half. Here's to hoping for lithium ;-)
You could find surplus forklift motors in the 7.5" to 9" range, or surplus wire cable contactors or switches, less expensive chargers and slightly less expensive motor controllers with no features. You could make a Pinto move under electric power for as little as $5K with a compromise on range and/or power.
Know that even for the lowest of power systems you would definnitely want a donor with an 8" rear end. If you think the the 6.75" rear end sucks in a gas car, you will for sure kill it with the low rpm torque of a series wound DC motor. They produce typically about 3x the torque of similarly rated gasoline engines.
HTH,
Mike
Not to take anything away from this electric Pinto, but there are ways to make an electric car for less (for the guy who asked). Recently I was in the Pick A Part wrecking yard (for their 50% sale) and found a company manufactured electric car. It was made by Jet Industries and they basically manufactured electric cars from fastback Doge Omnis, Escorts and Rangers.
http://www.davisengineering.net/Jet.html
Basically, from an Omni, I got the motor, speed controller, charger, gauges, battery box, cables and a lot of smaller doo-dads for $103 out the door including core and tax charges. The tranny is actually an early 80's VW. So, I can use a Mopar or VW as my base car. I'd love to find an old Dodge Rampage truck based on the Omni. This would allow great weight distribution. Well.., this is a Ford site so I'll pipe down about other brands. Just wanted to say that if your interested in electric cars there are other alternatives.
Tom
How would this setup fare through the 5spd AWD trans in a Subaru?
Or more accurately, how would an AWD trans designed to handle 200-300ft/lb of torque handle the output of the specified motor?
I have a friend who is very interested in building an AWD electric Subaru XT.
(http://subaruxt.com/forum/files/__hr_89-xt6-lsm.jpg)
Any reccomendations of forklifts that have reliable systems to pirate?
Shoot me an E-mail at crazyhorse_001@yahoo.com
No doubt there are less expensive ways to get an electric car converison. Starting with an already converted or factory produced vehicle would probably be the easiest. Next would be to pick a car people have done most often and use their experience. Most common are S-10's, Rabbits and Porsche 914's. You can browse what people have done and the prices they are paying at http://www.evalbum.com/ There are upwards of 1600 vehicles there. But back to the Pinto. Its the only one on that list. A shame because the Pinto is an excellent platform. Its light, easy to work on and you can still get parts for them, aftermarket too :-)
Doing a standard tranny is easier than an auto because with the auto you need to have an outboard pump to keep the fluid in the torque converter. Going direct drive is even easier, but you need two motors or one big 11"+ motor to get the torque you need for taking off. The Subaru AWD would be a pretty good car too. There are a few on the EVAlbum list. I know my Pinto costs a lot but its intended purpose was to show that electrics don't have to be slow. My intent is to break a world record in the street legal Street Conversion class of the National Electric Drag Racing Association. The record is currently 11.466 seconds and you won't beat it on a shoestring budget. Others are trying to show they are not expensive and yet others try to show they can get good range. There are just not enough with all the combinations to make everyone happy. But man the Pinto is sure fun to drive. I wouldn't mind doing another one if the opportunity presented itself.
You could get just about all the parts you need to make a rolling EV conversion. It may not be the fastes thing on the road but its been done for less than $2K. You would have to join the EV Discussion list to get specifics on the types of good forklifts http://www.evdl.org/
Mike
Thank you for that Electrabishi. I appreciate the time.
I'll send my friend that way.
Correction to my last. The the street legal Street Conversion class (SC/A) of the National Electric Drag Racing Association world record is currently 11.466 seconds. not 1.466 seconds like I wrote ;D G forces from a 1.4 second 1/4 mile run would probably kill someone, doh
Anybody watch "Pass Time" on the SpeedChannel? They just had a guy with an electric dragster make a run. Guy went 8.69
Kinda neat seeing the smoke rolling off a set of slicks WITHOUT the engine noise
I missed this show, but if its the Current Eliminator like I think it is that guy is down in the 7's now along with the Killacycle :lol:
There is a series on Discovery: Men Green Machines that has recently featured the Killacycle and upcoming episodes to feature an Electric Land Rover and the electric Datsun 1200, White Zombie, street machine (who's record we are chasing in the Pinto)
Mike
I got a new video I put together and linked up to our Dragimes.com submittal:
http://www.dragtimes.com/Ford-Pinto-Timeslip-15453.html
The link is just under the pic.
If you feel inclined to vote, please do.
We are currently #39 and working up through the ranks.
Every one of the electrics that are posted made it to Featured Car of the Month.
We're hoping to be the first Pinto with such distinction.
:lol:
Mike
Quote from: bigbellybob on July 29, 2008, 04:51:13 PM
there definitely is no cost savings running an electric drag car. i could build a nice pinto for under 10k that would run them #'s and that's splurging on nice paint and wheels. you spent 30k so i would still have 20k, thats like 10,000 passes in gas i have never seen a drag car make that many passes in its life span.
And bobs point is?
the electric drag thing is fairly new of course it going to cost more.
The car has more power potential to come, it will be intresting to to see how the motors last and handle the abuse. It sometimes cost to be different.
Another V8 or Turbo four is nothing new(I've done them both) Let's see where this goes before anyone starts casting stones.
I also think this car is bringing intrest to the Pinto Group he does need some PCCA labling on that orange thing. I did spend the time to vote for yah....
FrankBoss
keeping the cup half full
12.62 that's it?
My X 84 Turbo Capri @ 3200Lb with a $80.00 junkyard 2.3 turbo went 1/8th 7.86 at 86.32, 1/4 12.38 at 112.78 1.671 60' on DOT street tires.
I love the idea and i'm interested to hear more about it. I'm more of a fan of engineering and trying new things than going to a junk yard and bolting in some grease covered parts. Besides, how many turbo 2.3 or 5.0 swaps have been done? Maybe it's just me...i do like seeing something new though.
Best of luck to you. Also keep in mind that not everyone here can fully understand the concepts and physics of electricity, so maybe that's why it's not appreciated or well received by some.
Quote from: map351 on July 30, 2008, 06:29:50 AM
12.62 that's it?
My X 84 Turbo Capri @ 3200Lb with a $80.00 junkyard 2.3 turbo went 1/8th 7.86 at 86.32, 1/4 12.38 at 112.78 1.671 60' on DOT street tires.
Pretty slow Capri. But all you seem to do is bad mouth other rides so I guess we take it all with a grain of salt.
Quote from: map351 on July 30, 2008, 06:29:50 AM
12.62 that's it?
My X 84 Turbo Capri @ 3200Lb with a $80.00 junkyard 2.3 turbo went 1/8th 7.86 at 86.32, 1/4 12.38 at 112.78 1.671 60' on DOT street tires.
Yes but what does a $5 gallon of gas get that turbo Capri for miles?
$5 worth of electricity gets this 12 second door slammer to my office and back for a whole week, just shy of 100 miles :lol:
Quote from: bigbellybob on July 29, 2008, 04:51:13 PM
there definitely is no cost savings running an electric drag car. i could build a nice pinto for under 10k that would run them #'s and that's splurging on nice paint and wheels. you spent 30k so i would still have 20k, thats like 10,000 passes in gas i have never seen a drag car make that many passes in its life span.
Don't kid youself. People don't go to the track to see Pinto's race. The folks that don't know mine's electric don't give it a second glance. And the racing thing isn't about saving money. I consider it advertising costs. It helps more people see that electrics (and Pinto's) are capable. If race prepared electric forklift motors and 750 HP electric motor controllers were as common in the junk yard as map351's $80 turbo Capri then your argument would not hold water, eh?
I expect your kind of argument from a Hi Po alky rail driver, because they can still beat me. But the guy who's 2008 stock Corvette got spanked by a cute little Pinto filled with batteries certainly wasn't making that argument. And he paid almost twice what I did. But of course you would give him the same ration if your $10k Pinto beat him too.
How about that timeslip on your $10K Pinto?
;)
Mike
Quote from: Chris on August 01, 2008, 05:27:15 PM
I love the idea and i'm interested to hear more about it. I'm more of a fan of engineering and trying new things than going to a junk yard and bolting in some grease covered parts. Besides, how many turbo 2.3 or 5.0 swaps have been done? Maybe it's just me...i do like seeing something new though.
Best of luck to you. Also keep in mind that not everyone here can fully understand the concepts and physics of electricity, so maybe that's why it's not appreciated or well received by some.
Hi Chris, its definitely something new. Better than breaking knuckles in the grease trying to get busted exhaust manifold bolts out.
and to your second point, thats why I race it and get time slips on an IHRA sanctioned track. People might not understand the physics behind the electrics, but they understand the time slip statistics very well. 1.65 second 60 ft times, and 1000 ft-lb dyno curves really start opening eyes. My challange is getting the details right so I can get the most out of the batteries for the few seconds I need it. If you can make 360 V worth of batteries put out 1500 amps that is equal to 540 Kilowatts. If there are 746 watts per HP then that equals 723.9 HP. I only figure I'm getting 485 HP ou tof them right now. So there's the engineering challange for you.
I'm wondering (because I don't really know) what a 2.3L Turbo Pinto puts out for torque and power, and what potentially it could go up to without resorting to nitrous or all custom parts.
Mike
Mike, keep up the good work. At least you are out there racing and building what you want. Let the 'Bench Racers" keep running their mouth........................
Quote from: Pintony on August 02, 2008, 10:48:31 AM
[quote author=
I'm wondering (because I don't really know) what a 2.3L Turbo Pinto puts out for torque and power, and what potentially it could go up to without resorting to nitrous or all custom parts.
Mike
Hello Chris,
I think the Standard turbo 2.3 was rated at 145HP.
From Pintony
IIRC: A 2.3T is rated at between 130ish to 205 HP DEPENDING on what car/year it came in.
Bill
thumbs up to Electrabishi
Nice time slip but what does it have to do with an electric Pinto??? This post is about a guy who built a nice car and is racing it.
You guys crack me up. A few ( two of you ) seem to be " challenged" by this car.. ;)
I have yet to read anything here about this car that puts down anybody else BUT it seems that a couple of people think they need to put this car down by claiming its cost to much to build and its not fast. Maybe we should have another topic started so you guys can go bench racing. This site is not about challenging other people's work, cars etc. If you want that, go over to TurboFord and talk trash with the guys over there. Fair warning.................. >:( >:( >:(
Yes, he did ask for a time slip.
he didn't ask for your dads time slip
FrankBoss
I thought this thread was about an electric powered Pinto, and what is/ was involved.
Any 3rd party comparison to a NON-ELECTRIC powered Pinto would be copairing apples and oranges (pointless). I think that anyone that has the need to post a negative (all puns intended) comment on the performance of said electric powered Pinto should go build THEIR OWN electric powered Pinto and see how they do with it.
I built my Bobcat to auto-X it. No, it's not, nor will it ever be a great car for that no matter what I do to it, or how much money I spend. I probably built it for a similar reason this electric Pinto was built. If anyone does not understand this type of concept, maybe they never will.... (a top-fuel car can do the 1/4 mile MUCH faster than the gas powered Pintos mentioned here, so why even bother with a Pinto at all?)
Bill
Good points Bill.
No offense taken to any of these guys banterings. If you want apples, to oranges to bananas you can talk trash all day long. If you want to harsh on the Pinto, as Bill stated, I got an alky rail that'll kick your Pinto's a__. If you want to harsh on the electrics then my friends 7 second electric bike will also kick your Pinto's a__, or my other friends 10 second electric RX7, or another friends 11 second Datsun 1200. If you got a Pinto thats as fast as those then you have my respect. But its still a Pitno and the alky rail will stil kill them all.
The whole point of this excercise is to show folks about some alternatives to transportation. Granny Grocery Getter don't care if the car will do 12 second 1/4 miles. She may not even care if it can get to 60 in 12 seconds. But people in general won't take them serious if the possibility of performance is not there. This project and the reason I started this thread was to say "hey it can be done." I happen to have chosen the Pinto as the donor. I could have as easily chosen a Triumph, or a Lotus, or a Cobra Kit etc. and the results would be silmilar. For my own reasons I chose the Pinto. Its the only reason I joined this board. I figured there were some pretty knowledgable people on the Pinto front here. Get a few Pinto questions answered , tell a few electric car facts, before you know it there's little baby electric Pinto's running all over. Well not really. My point (which I think I lost by now) is that it doesn't offend me when people close their eyes to the future of things to come. I'm just happy to be helping bring it on.
Mike
Mike, Thanks for contribuiting to this site. We enjoy hearing about your car and want to hear about the future of this car. Please keep updating here or in another topic so we can enjoy your progress. ;D
Quote from: bigbellybob on August 04, 2008, 09:29:36 AM
.....
when do you see electric cars becoming affordable?
Conversions will become affordable if enough people buy parts from the folks who have poured their lives into their hobby and built up the controllers, motors and battery management systems. As of right now all of the (respectably performing) equipment is produced "ma and pa" style. Get a big company in to mass produce components and conversions will get less expensive. For that to happen there has to be demand, meaning there has to be enough people willing to pay what it takes now as an early adopter to prove the demand. Thats what I'm doing.
This point would be moot if car companies would just start producing them. GM lost interest in their EV1 program, no doubt due to persuasion from their political buddies in the oil industry. They claim it will take so long just to come out with their Hybrid Volt but the fact is that they already have designs for way more efficient vehicles. I wouldn't look to the big 3 to bring about any radical change. Its going to take a small company that is still big enough to absorb all the cost of R&D into safety and crash testing and still be able to come to market with a product. Even if they make it they have the big 3 sharks to fight off which is no small feat.
My bet is that the grass roots efforts will show people that it can be done and that more and more people will get fed up with the antics of oil and auto producers (and politicians) and just start doing it themselves. There will be a point where the alternative will be cheaper.
But just like you, mine's not the fastest, but its fun to drive. Its also fun being in on something new. If I was going to build up a dragster solely for racing, it may not have been a Pinto. You're argument that $10K into a Pinto could make it a sub 12 second car, would likely be the same for a Datsun, Mustang, RX7, or even a Bug etc etc.....
But anyway, back to topic....We're hoping to be up on the Dyno on wednesday :lol:
However, I am noticing a loss in power when the batteries hit 1000 amps where they should go all the way to 1500A. I'm hoping after letting it sit for a month we only have a little oxidation built up between some of the terminals. I'm going to clean them all off tonight and hopefully be at peak performance for the Dyno.
Mike
Quote from: turbopinto72 on August 04, 2008, 09:27:14 AM
Mike, Thanks for contribuiting to this site. We enjoy hearing about your car and want to hear about the future of this car. Please keep updating here or in another topic so we can enjoy your progress. ;D
Thanks much. Telling about it has been just as much fun as doing the project :lol:
I figure there are some pretty hardened Pinto fans that don't care what you do to a Pinto, as long as its cool. I see some people panel their cars with disco ball mirrors, and chia pet grass, bottle caps and just about anything that will grow. Things that don't make the faster, more efficient or even pretty. So hey, how bad could packing the back with batteries and going silently down the road really be ;-)
The crap I get from some folks would be the same crap I'd get if I had a 12 second Gremlin or Pacer.
Thanks again.
Mike
Got Dyno results posted:
http://www.dragtimes.com/1978-Ford-Pinto-Dyno-Results-Graphs-15453.html
the raw plot from the Dyno is here:
http://www.halestechnical.com/Mike%20Volmans%20Dyno%20Chart.JPG
The machine couldn't read my tach output so I had to correlate the RPM data from my controller with the speed data from the Dyno to be able to calculate the Torque which is equal to HP x 5252/RPM
Youtube video of a run:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt0LSml0JTI
Some notes on Horsepower. I fully expected to see 450 HP. But some things conspired to keep it from happening. Because there were plenty of other folks wanting on the dyno my time was limited so we had to short charge between runs. We probably got a good 10 minutes on the charger. We typically run it between 20-30 minutes at the track. Also after only 3 runs on the dyno the batteries were just barely warming up. We typically peak out on times when the batteries hit 120*F and that takes usually 4-5 runs. But 300HP isn't too bad. And 1260 ft-lbs of torque gets us 60ft times of 11 second cars. I don't really know what the "peak" torque is because I couldn't do a standing start. I had to do a slow roll up to 20 mph before stabbing it. I predict now that from a standing start it might peak up near 1500 ft-lbs, and runs the risk of breaking the dyno.
Anyway, just another data point.
Keep voting for us each day. We're #10 in the top contenders list for the month of September.
http://www.dragtimes.com/Ford-Pinto-Timeslip-15453.html
Enjoy
Mike
Mike, thanks for the update. Wow, that dyno chart is different. Looks like you make max power at about 1000 rpm ish..... ;D , Wish I could do that...........
In theory the power band should be flat from zero until the back EMF on the motors reaches the voltage of the batteries. You can see that happen on the top end as it tapers off around 4000 RPM. Coincidentally enough 4000 RPM is 100mph, about where we are finishing the 1/4 mile.
It ramps up from zero RPM because he wouldn't let me do a standing start. I had to roll it up easy to 20 mph before stabbing it. He didn't want to break his machine. It would probably have pegged 1500 ft-lb from a standstill. His machine will only register 1200, so even if my tach sensor worked on the dyno I'd have lost some data above 1200 ft-lb.
Fun stuff.
Mike
Quote from: electrabishi on August 04, 2008, 02:14:46 AM
I happen to have chosen the Pinto as the donor. I could have as easily chosen a Triumph, or a Lotus, or a Cobra Kit etc. and the results would be similar.
Thanks for choosing a Pinto.
Even though I don't understand most of the electrical aspects of your car it is still
interesting to read about your innovations, trials and solutions with the electric Pinto.
Bob
I personally love your car, and applaud the engineering it took to put it all together. It IS the grass roots movements that bring about big change. Wilhelm Maybach and Gottlieb Daimler were just a few in a long succession of inventors from the 1800s that brought about change. We know that change today as the internal combustion engine. They built those successes into what may now be one of the most widely recognized automotive names (ever hear of Daimler-Chysler, or Daimler-Benz?) It is changes like these that keep my eyes on alternative propulsion companies like Tesla ( http://www.teslamotors.com/ ) Utah Biodiesel ( http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/index.php ) and the like. I even toyed with the idea of getting a Mercedes I-5 or I-6 turbo out of an old land yacht, putting it into my fox Mustang, and running biodiesel, JUST to be weird and different. First and foremost, we MUST obviate fear of the unknown. Failure to do so will keep us forever locked in the same rut, possibly indefinitely. As 'hot-rodders', look at how many 'grass roots' successes have become commonplace in automotive vocabulary. Vic Edelbrock is the first example (and probably the biggest) that comes to mind. Anyway, Mike, I love it and keep up the great (and no doubt hard) work that you have been doing. It is one thing to follow the masses, and quite another to forge up the path less traveled.
--Doug
Thanks for the kind words Doug. It has been a real fun project to work on. It seems to be an idea with a future (as well as a long past) who's time has about come. Just think if Ford had made Pintos electric way back when, there might be more of them still driving around today ;)
We're going back to the track on Sunday to beat on that 12 and a half second barrier.
Mike
By the way, once again there have been posts deleted from this thread.
Well we did it. We knocked a tenth off our times and haven't done any enhancements to the car yet. We're down to 12.478 @104.1 mph.
Timeslip on http://www.dragtimes.com/Ford-Pinto-Timeslip-15453.html
I'm just now getting all the elctrical data that goes with the dyno plots in a place I can link to. So here they are
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Crazyhorse_Pinto_DAQ4_06AUG08.pdf
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Crazyhorse_Pinto_HP_Torque_06AUG08.pdf
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Crazyhorse_Pinto_Dyno_Output_06AUG08.pdf
Note that several of the curves represent data that is multiplied by 10x so they show up at levels relative to the scale. On those labled as x10 then just drop 1 zero from the number on the 'Y' axis.
Also a good story on AutoblogGreen
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/18/video-electric-pinto-only-explodes-off-the-starting-line/
I got some more video but I need to go through and edit some clips together so they'll post up on Youtube.
enjoy
Mike
The AutoblogGreen article was hacked from a story originally printed in the Anchorage Daily News, Valley Sports Edition on August 17th, 2008
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Crazyhorse_Power_ADN_Article_2008_08_17.pdf
enjoy,
Mike
I got some u-toob video posted from our runs (amongst the FAST cars) at the track 17Aug08:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mutCzLHwXEc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGcyGL_BEQI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzejR7J2IaE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8C3eEOhdZM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oXJWkpbIDI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXgi4D-yF3g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqQAfGEzNUU
I'm the even numbered runs, Hank is the odd numbered runs.
Don't go by the number on the window, we kept forgetting to change our number between races. They kept announcing Hank as me and vice versa ;-)
Mike
....p.s. vote for us on Dragtimes each day until we make to the top :-)
http://www.dragtimes.com/Ford-Pinto-Timeslip-15453.html
If you would ;-)
Mike
hello my name is sam howard "homewrecker" i owned a 70's model pinto bb/fc alcohol funny car it had a 480 cu inch 5/8 stroker motor 392 hemi
had a1071 blower with enderlie birdcatcher injjectors i would run it the coco cola
calvacade of stars in a 16 car show i would qualify between #9 & 16
race with M/T dale pulde many times, larry goulds ford funny car bill daily lone ranger f/c, would add some small amount of nitro to get in the field 30 / 40 %
used to work for omar the tentmaker carruthers aa/fc joplin ,mo jungle jim liberman
chi town hustler aa/fc terry ivey aa/fc joplin mo[ jim chickenhawk mcmurry high planes drifter aa/fc i would alway make a little money lost all My pics of the car if i can find any i will post them
i have been trying to find my old car for years would love to try to buy it back want to give it to the grand kids
sam howard homewrecker
howardsam@ hotmail.com
joplin mo]
Hey all,
Its coming down to the end of our season. We haven't had time to revamp our battery straps like we wanted to but I deployed a secret weapon on them and will report if we see any improvement. You may have caught that we knocked a tenth off our time the last time at the track. We're now down to 12.478 @ 104.1 mph. Each time is getting a little better and we haven't even been doing any mods. So being as this will be our last drag race for the season Hank is going to pony up (so to speak) for the King of the Street Series at the track on Saturday. Yes Jim, he has the spurs ready and will be deploying them on the ponies this time. I kinda think they've been loping so far :cheesy_n: So what we'll be racing are pure street cars with times of 14.99 or better to run. We'll no doubt be getting a few delayed starts. Since we can't switch drivers during the competition Hank will drive and I'll pit and take video. I've been itching to get some good video of us tromping some street cars. It seems most of the days we could make it to the track were Top Fuel and Top Dragster days :( But no worries. All street cars on Saturday :lol: And video will follow. Maybe even a better ET. I'll be driving her around tomorrow for show and tell and may even run into some prominent folks ;) The governor's husband is interested and may make it to the track to watch as well. So stay tuned we'll see how it goes.
Mike
Oh yeah, keep up the votes for us on http://www.dragtimes.com/Ford-Pinto-Timeslip-15453.html
We're currently #5 and knocking on the #4 door for Featured Car of the Month
http://www.dragtimes.com/
Good luck !!! We all wish you well and we are looking forward to your videos.
Well after a gorgeous day at the track Saturday we came out with mixed results. Hank "Ponied" up for the King of the Street Brackets Saturday. After spending all day getting the batteries warmed up. Waiting through 4 other divisions of racing, a motorcycle accident, and two blown engines on the track we finally got our one shot to stay for the second race in a 7 car field. We're still all set to go and waiting to do the qualifying round (had to prove 14.99 or better). I was thinking we could do that on dead batteries ;-) And then they tell us the King of the Street field runs 3 parade laps up and down the track for folks to see that they are street cars (license plates, lights, windshield wipers, brakes, you know ... all the required stuff for the street) That was a surprise, and then they say they go right from the parade into the staging lanes for the qualifier. Uh oh, now I gotta prove we CAN do 14.99 on dead batteries. Well not really dead, 1.5 miles of slooow 35-40mph parading burned about as much juice as a full blown burnout. So we skipped the burnout for the qualifier and turned in a 13.01 qualifying run. We were told we'd have 15 mintues to be staged back up. Well we were back to the staging lanes in about 30 minutes and an hour later the rest of our field decided to join us. Z28, Mustang 5.0, '65 Chevelle and a couple other blown street rigs. 11 total in all including us. The top "fastest four" went on to the pro-bracket Heads up tree, the 7 that were left did dial in brackets. We're up first on the Mustang 5.0 who is dialling 12.55. Talk about a great match! Hank was running .03 reactions all day. But a 0.19 reaction and my ill fated advice to add in the reaction time for the dial in lost him the race by .0061 seconds. Hank ran a 12.614 @ 102.5 to the Mustang's 12.676 @102.2. Don't know what I was thinking having to account for the reaction time :-( We shoulda dialed 12.55 to match the Mustang :-) Although after we got eliminated I made two T/T runs and got it down to 12.4701 @104.47 which is 8 thou off my PB. Hank still has the fastest trap speed between us of 104.95. So thats pretty much how we finished up the season.
Now I alluded to a couple quick mods we working on. One was the battery strap situation. With the slotted straps we were losing significant contact area on the battery posts. I added some Stabilant22A contact enhancer to all the terminal connections in hopes to drop the contact resistances a little. Data from the Zilla indicated we were only hitting 75% duty cycle in the parallel mode shortly before the end of a run. As luck would have it John Wayland made a quick stop in Anchorage after a trip to the North Slope. We chatted over dinner and he gave us a tip to add some inductance to the motor loop in parallel mode. So $120 for a 30 ft length of 2/0 THHN wrapped around a 4" pipe and mounted under the hood, and there was our "Wayland Flux Inductor". We were told at the track that it was supposed to be a "Flux Capacitor" but I told them I didn't want to wind up in 1886. I'll get pics up soon enough. Suffice to say neither mods helped a whole lot. And it was an extra variable that made playing in the brackets hard (not that delaying a start and mis calculating the dial in didn't hurt us bad enough). Preliminary look at the data though shows we did hit 85% duty cycle on the parallel mode, so there was some improvement. So this will be something to look at over the winter. We were running pretty hot on the batteries too, and on the last T/T run I got a pretty good wiff of that sulpher smell like a bettery had vented. Good thing that we 1.) Have spare batteries and 2.) was the end of the season and have time to baby the pack back together.
All in all it was a good season. No records set (except I have 1/8 mile times that compete favorably to Smoke Screen ;-) <Note to FordPinto.com readers: Smoke Screen is an S-10 that holds the 1/8 mile record in the PS/A3 NEDRA class we currently run the 1/4 mile in> We have one more car show to attend in Seward this coming weekend and that will likely be the last outdoor appearance for a little while for the Crazyhorse.
I see we are just about to the top at Dragtimes.com so vote early and vote often. We should be there in October :-D
http://www.dragtime s.com/Ford- Pinto-Timeslip- 15453.html
Mike
Mike, great post !!! Keep up the good work ;D
Thanks Brad,
Are you the Brad that does the PCCA stickers? I ordered one yesterday. Any chance I could get the number off of it before you mail it. I have some paperwork I need to list the number on.
Also Thanks to all who have been pegging the votes each day on Dragtimes.com. Its been a long trip.
We're just 100 votes from being in the top spot and may need a few extra to hang onto it once achieved.
I know we can do it with your help. If we can't get 100 votes by Saturday the 6th of September I'm going to pack it up for the season.
(only because the races are over and Saturday is the last car show before the snow falls ;-)
http://www.dragtimes.com/Ford-Pinto-Timeslip-15453.html
Thanks again.
Mike
Mike, your sticker number is # 105.
Thanks Brad,
I'll display the sticker proudly. Just wanted to give folks a season wrap up story that would make any Pinto owner proud. This is cross posted from my NEDRA list:
________________________________________
From: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Willmon
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 12:43 AM
To: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [NEDRA] Crazyhorse Pinto Just 32 Votes from #1 on Dragtimes.com
Hey John and all,
Thanks for being the one to put us over the top. Just gotta hold the lead for a bit longer. And what a pleasure it was to visit with John on his way through Anchorage. He had those guys on the slope so hopped up on electrics some of them showed us at the track the next day with their family after being in purgatory on the North Slope of Alaska for several weeks ;-)
Just wanted to give a quick update from our weekend adventures and share a little story. Since racing is over we packed up the RV and trailered the Pinto to Seward Alaska where the 6th Annual Eddy's Auto Show was happening. Eddy saw the Electrabishi on the news a couple years ago and has been trying to get me down to his show since then. 2 years ago I didn't have a trailer. Last year the Pinto was not quite done. This year was a success. Trailer, tow rig, fast electric dragster and we made it to the show. There were probably near 100 cars there of all types. It was a lose show with "anything that would run allowed". You can see slide shows of past events, and at some point the pics form this show, at : http://www.eddysauto.com/indexa.html
The Corvette club was there and has been a staple participant of Eddy's show from the start. So I'm hanging out watching the 20 or so Corvettes line up in their reserved corner of the RV lot. Not long after a couple guys come trotting over from their crowd. They're looking at the Pinto and the Channel 2 news clip happened to be playing on the Video loop on my laptop. Well at the exact moment the guy looked over at the laptop they're playing my blurb about going to the "track in Palmer...racing the Mustangs and Corvettes" and immediately the guy looked over at me and yelled "You're the one!!!" He kinda looked mad at first, then he said "you're the guy who spanked us at the track this summer" I knew who it was then, although I had never met him. Early on, maybe the 2nd day at the track I ripped a white Corvette that was only turning low to mid 13's. The track announcer went wild, not about how cool or fast the electric Pinto was, but that this Corvette with a 383 Stroker had just lost to a Pinto. Steve (the track announcer) kept on him the whole evening. Everytime he staged up at the line he would say "and here's the white Corvette that lost to that Pinto...." I thought it he was laying it on pretty hard but it was fun to listen to. Anyway, the guy said he wasn't all that surprised he was beat by an electric because he figured it would put out a lot of torque. He was more hurt that it was a Pinto, which was my reason #2 for picking the Pinto in the first place. So I asked if he or his buddies wanted to borrow my shoe polish and put their ¼ mile times up on their windshield. He said nope, can't do it..... I already sold it! He couldn't stand all the work he had put into the car and to be beat by an electric Pinto....so he sold it for a more stock machine.
So that made my weekend. And to get home and see we were #1 at the polls on Drag Times; it just finishes up a good summer season nicely. Even though we didn't beat any White Zombie records (which wasn't all that realistic anyway), we do have 1/8 mile times that compete favorably to Dennis' Smoke Screen. And we'd love to get either him or Michael Kadie, or even the White Zombie, out to a ¼ mile strip some day.
Anyway, is late even for Alaskans in the summer time so I better let EVeryone go. Thanks again for sticking with the votes. Don't cut lose yet. We have to maintain until the end of the month. I should get a big green pumpkin stem for the top of the Pinto if we are going to be the October (Halloween) Feature
Mike
AMPED
Well we've had the votes now for the whole month. Just had to wait for October 1st to roll around, and now we're "Featured Car of the Month" on the front page of http://www.dragtimes.com (http://www.dragtimes.com).
Thanks all who popped us some votes.
We also posted an 1/8th mile NEDRA record in the PS/A3 class of 7.933 @ 85.23 mph
http://www.nedra.com/record_holders.html (http://www.nedra.com/record_holders.html)
We were going for the 12.151 second record in the 1/4 mile as our goal for the year, but the seasons over here and we came up shy at 12.47 seconds at 104.47 mph.
More to come for next year. Thanks for watching ;-)
Mike
Maybe to keep the info consolidated in this thread I'll cross post this info here...
Don't yet know where to get hard copies but the Electric Crazyhorse Pinto is featured as the cover story in the June 2009 issue of Design News. Online article is here:
http://www.designnews.com/article/277418-Drag_Racing_Goes_Electric.php
(note PCCA sticker prominently displayed on the last photo in the article :-) )
You can hit the author's blog here:
http://www.designnews.com/blog/Captain_Hybrid/15300-Even_For_Electric_Drag_Racers_It_s_All_About_The_Battery.php
Also a news clip we got caught in over the Memorial Day weekend racing at the track:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0jyZLB6T7o
Mike
(http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/IMG_7339_small.JPG)
Got National Coverage on this one ;D
I told the guy to hold on. But with all the noise the electric car makes he probably didn't hear me, or wasn't listening.
http://stream1.opb.org/media/news/2009/08/0805CF_EVdragsters.mp3.m3u (http://stream1.opb.org/media/news/2009/08/0805CF_EVdragsters.mp3.m3u)
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112006313 (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112006313)
Keep up the good work Mike ........... ;D ;D