I discovered a problem with my new 74 wagon that may explain why it will not run. The engine is correctly timed (i removed the valve cover and made certain that both valves were closed on the #1 cylinder [when the timing marks were aligned for the cam] and then made sure the #1 piston was at TDC and checked to make sure the ignition rotor was pointed to fire cyl. 1) and then removed all spark plugs, installed the compression tester and cranked over the engine. It produced zero PSI. The remaining cylinders (2,3,4) all blew a consistant 115 psi. Cylinder #1 blew nearly 150 PSI in my 76 pinto, also with the 2.3 engine. This tells me there is something wrong in cylinder #1. Does anyone have any ideas? At this point im sure there is nothing short of pulling the head that i can do, but want to see what others have to say.
Thanks Guys!
Drop a cap full of oil in #1 and see if it changes. If not, you have a valve, head/gasket, or piston issue. Most likely with 0, it is a hole or a valve. 115 in the rest tells a different story; it might get better if the engine is warm, but that is WAY too low. Sorry to say that engine might need major work. Did you have it WOT during the test?
Bill
No it was not at WOT.
For a proper test the engine should be warm (if it runs) and WOT, but WOT at a minimum. Try it again and see what 2,3, and 4 do. Also, drop some oil in all of them to see what you get. Do them all again dry first with WOT to compare.
I would bet on a valve problem (bad seat or cracked valve or V-spring...), but a hole in a piston is not that uncommon either.
Bill
Even having compression on only 3 of 4 cylinders, with a reasonably decent condition engine otherwise, MOST 4 cylinder engines will still run, just not very well, or without much power to accelerate.
115 does sound rather low on the other cylinders, if the test doesn't improve much at W.O.T. or when you do it wet, there will be work to do.
Besides those already listed, a couple of other possibilities for a very low reading (not necessarily zero) on only one cylinder are:
A problem with the compression tester not making a seal ON THAT CYLINDER ONLY. This has happened to me more than once, with a hard piece of something being stuck in the threads or on the spark plug seating area, preventing the tester s "o" ring from actually bottoming on the seat.
A valve that is having trouble sliding through a valve guide and is not fully retracting, either because of rust, crud or the valve stem being bent. This can be either an intake or exhaust valve. If only one valve stem is rusty looking anywhere, this may be a tip that others are also. In that case, add some penetrating oil on top of the valve guides and let it sit at least overnight.
A broken or very bent cam follower, (on OHC engines) or extremely mis-set valve(s) on that cylinder. The first does not allow a valve to open at all, the second may either not allow a valve to open much at all or not to close completely.
A cracked or severely worn valve retainer (or a bad pair of keepers) that has almost "swallowed" its valve keepers, allowing the top of the valve spring and retainer to be much too high, can cause a valve to not close, IF the valve keepers are jammed tightly enough into the retainer.
A defective cam with at least one cam lobe that is severely worn down.
A blown out head gasket from cylinder #1 to atmospheric pressure air.
A severely warped or cracked cylinder head or block affecting only cylinder #1.
An eroded cylinder head with damage most likely near to or adjacent to one or both valve seats, allowing free passage of air through the cylinder at all times, preventing compression.
Thanks for the info, goodolboys. I had already started taking stuff apart when the wet compression test and WOT tests were suggested so i didnt get to do them. I did get the head off today tho and found the number 1 intake valve stuck open, appears to be all the way open, too, or d*mn near it, and the lobes are not in a position where theyd be holding the valve open. Cylinders 3 and 4 appear to have their exhuast valves slightly open but one could be starting to open while the other is finishing closing up. cylinder 2 has both its valves closed. The Cylnder walls have a slight ridge in them, just barly big enough to stop my fingernail from running across it in number 1 cylinder and not even that big in #4. the other 2 cylinders are at TDC and i havnt moved them to check the wear on them. There are some scratches but i think thats pretty normal in any engine thats been used much.
Now you need to decide what your goals are for this engine. Do you want it to "run" or do you want it in "perfect" condition.
Are the scratches vertical (parallel with the walls)?
IF you want the head and the engine to be totally perfect, and depending on your skills, you might want to bring the head to a machine shop to get re-built and looked over.
IF you want the engine to run and do a full re-build at a later time, you need to check to see that the valves are not bent, and why they are not moving. The 2.3 is a non-interference engine, but that does not mean that contact CAN'T be made. If they are not bent you MIGHT be able to free them up by tapping on them with a PLASTIC hammer and using some penetrating oil if they are just stuck. IF that works, you SHOULD lap them before putting the head back on.
If you have never run this engine, you MIGHT have issues elsewhere in the engine, so spending lots of time and money on the head might cost you in the long run (sorry about the pun). Yes, it would need to be done at some point, BUT you might just find a good used RUNNING engine to drop in. Head gaskets are CHEAP (10 bucks) and if the head bolts are the original ones, you can re-use them. If you can get the head usable and back on you can better evaluate the rest of the engine without a full pull down; again, this DEPENDS on YOUR goals.
Bill
I just want it to run decent. I have a good head off of a 1980 pinto that i bought for my 76 and never installed. I plan on sticking it on with a new head gasket set. That should solve my problem i hope. If that does not, ill be putting the engine from my 76 into the wagon and get another motor for my 76. Id like a 2.3 turbo, but i want that in the car im gonna be driving the most which will be the wagon, as the 76 is damaged right now. Oh well pulling a pinto engine is a piece of cake. ;D
I spun the cam more today and realized the lobe was indeed still down far enough to hold the valve open. So the valve was NOT stuck open. However, this time the lobe is fully disenguaged from the lifter and i can still see light thru between the valve and the valve seat. Even tho its an ever so slight gap will that cause it to blow no compression at all? Kinda looked as tho two exhuast valves may have been the same way but i didnt look super close on that yet. These valves are nasty looking, lots of crud on the bottom and are slick black but i think that may be due to fact that its had fuel given to it but hasnt been running so it isnt being burned altho it should be vapor. It has a new carburetor on it so it could be passing liquid fuel if it isnt set just right. I may have more than one problem, may have more than 2 problems... guess i will find out. How do the lifters and rocker arms come off/out of the head? Chiltons says the rocker arms (cam followers) have to come off to remove the cam, and i have to put my cam and rockers and maybe lifters out of my 74 head and into the '80 head. I think the 80 head may have different lifters. This is turning out to be more of a job than i expected. LoL. Its worth it tho.
It is tough to give any info without seeing what you are talking about.
Yes, the valve does not have to be open very much to kill the compression.
IF a valve is open AND the follower is NOT in contact with the cam you have one or more of these: stuck valve, bent valve, worn valve, bad valve seat, bad valve guide, bad valve spring or spring cap.
There is a tool made for removing the followers. I have made two of them; the second was so much better that I junked the first. The tool looks like a 2 pronged fork with the handle at about a 90* angle. The fork slips under the cam and pushes down on the valve spring cap. You just need to be careful that the valve moves with the cap or the retainers can fall out.
If you just swap the cams and followers, you NEED to put all the followers back with the lobes they were on. Inspect the cam and followers before you install them, they all tend to wear.
As far as removing the lifters, you need the followers out and just pull them up and out of the head. If (when) they don't come out by hand, use a grease gun with a needle tip and inject grease in the hole at the base of the lifter holder. Yes, you can try vise-grips, but if they are STUCK, you will not get them. The grease will force out the most stubborn lifters.
There are two different style lifters, but I think they will interchange. Check with an auto parts store for interchange info.
BTW: IMHO, put the Chiltons book in the trash and get a Haynes.
Bill
I couldnt find the tool at oreillys but it sounds kinda like a tie rod and ball joint seperator fork, except those are strait instead of 90 degrees. The lobe was in contact with the follower but it didnt look like it was enough to hold it open that far, but apparently it was because it closed all but enough to see a little bit of light between the valve and the seat. I will make sure all the lifters and followers are back in the spot they came from.
I took my 2 heads up to the machine shop today. Theyre gonna take them apart, and power wash the good one atleast, check on my lifters, install a new cam seal, and put the cam and followers from the old head into the new head. Might also have to put in lifters, i dont know. Today is monday. They said it'd be atleast wednesday before they could get to it. I should have it back or know something else by thursday or friday id think.
The machine shop said the "spare head" that i bought and brought in was cracked. Its not into the water jacket yet but said it would eventually make it there. The head that was on the car already they said checked out just fine but would need rebuilt. So they are working on that now and it should be ready by tuesday or wednesday. I hope thats all it is!
I got my head from the machine shop, $225 dollars later INCLUDING my head gasket set. I am thrilled, its cheaper than i expected. Ill hopefully install it later today.
Well i just got around to installing the head this evening. I didnt have any thread locker so i was unable to install and tighten the camshaft bolt (2300 cam is hollow so oil can run thru it. If no sealer is used, it will leak) and i didnt have any sealer to put on the oil pressure sender either so neither of those are really installed. i slipped the pulley and stop plate on the cam and stuck the bolt in but didnt tighten it down and the sender i just havnt put in yet. I did start to fill the cooling system tho and discovered the water neck leaked between the head and the neck, even tho the gasket was there. I didnt use sealer, but i dont know if i needed to or not. I guess i did. lol. Will fix that and get thread locker tomorrow. Then i'll fire it up, or try to. See if it fixed my problem. I think so and sure hope so. Will let you know hopefully tomorrow otherwise i wont be able to until the 28th. Ill be gone on vacation.
Got the thread locker on the cam sprocket bolt, the oil pressure sending unit, and everything all tighetend down. Fixed the water leak around the thermostat housing, and then hooked the battery up, and jumpstarted it (or tried) since the battery was down. It attempted to start, and run but seemed to only run a second or two and stall again. Did that a few times. It finally just backfired real loud when i tried to start it twice. Since it was 10pm, i didnt try anymore for fear id get the cops called on me. I then nosed around for any problems and noticed the timing was off. I didnt set the timing by installing the timing cover and lining the TC mark on the crank pulley with the marker on the timing cover, instead i put the piston at the top of the cylinder before i installed the head, then installed the head, lined up the cam with the pointer, and turned the aux shaft pulley to where the rotor pointed to fire #1 cylinder, then slipped on the belt. I did it the correct way the second time, by installing the cover, putting it at the TC mark, then lining everything else up and slipping on the belt. The starter had been giving some problems but it would eventually work if you messed with it a few times. Now it wont, it will sit there and spin the starter motor, but not the engine. So i never got to see if i fixed the problem. What crappy luck im havng! Im on vacation now, nothing i can do until i get back which will be the 28th.
If it spins but won't engage the bendix might be stuck, tap it with a hammer a couple of times to see if it will free up. If it's not that, you're missing teeth on the flywheel/flexplate. Put a socket on the crank pully and rotate the engine a few degrees to see if that fixes the problem.
Later,
Joe
I think its the starter but i am gonna take it off and inspect the flywheel. I had to replace the flywheel on my other pinto due to the teeth being worn off, but this one i beleive is the starters fault. Turning the engine any at all doesnt effect if it grabs or not, i tried. It would on my other pinto for a while, until the rest of the teeth wore off. Thats how i knew it was the flywheel, that and it would eat up a starter every few weeks.
Got the new starter installed. Engine turns over nicely......or did. It started, ran a second or two, stalled, started again, did the same thing again and now it acts as tho the timing is off again somewhere. It turns - stops - turns - stops - turns - stops....and so on an so on. The only thing i can think of is that maybe it needs a new distributor. I dont really care to have points and im not gonna waste my money on them. I have a good electronic distributor out of my 76 that im considering dropping in there. I can go get a new duraspark 2 box, and figure out how to wire up the two wires that need to be hooked up (can anyone help with this?) or, install an MSD 6A ignition box with my electronic distributor from my 76. Either way will be a serious improvement over the point type ignition. I cannot beleive all the problems im having. My starter solenoid stuck once earlier, and even tho the key was off and out of the switch, the engine kept turning over. After i beat on the solenoid once (which is new too, btw) it stopped. All these problems are driving me crazy! None of this stuff makes any sense to me at all.
I have found another problem! The pin on the distributor drive gear has sheared. I've got a new distributor ordered in it will be here in the morning. I do beleive that will solve my problem. It just acts as tho its a timing issue and this would make sense. The distributor would turn with the engine but it slipped in the gear... that explains alot of stuff. Now the question is, does a sheared pin happen naturally sometimes, or is that an indication of another problem?
That pin in the distributor gear was the whole problem ;D I started the car and drove it some today. I think the tires are out of balance (will out of balance tires wobble at 35 mph like they will at highway speeds? ??? ) and the clutch is about gone too i think. It doesnt release until the pedal is pretty much all the way up, and ive already adjusted it. I had to advance the distributor probably 1/8th of a turn away from where it was set at (rotor pointing to fire #1 cyl tower on cap) while at tdc and cam marks lined up. I dont know what thats all about it may be because i havnt adjusted the dwell (but did adjust the points). Anyways im so glad it runs ;D :D Still a few issues to work out and alot that i already have, but it atleast runs and drives.