Pinto Car Club of America

What do you guys think the best power adder is for your hard earned greenbacks?

Turbo.

This does include the entire swap though, but still the best DURABLE bang for the buck (IMHO). A good running full donor car can still be had for under $500., and depending on your goals, can be installed fairly cheaply.

Bill

I voted turbo but it would also depend on the context.  Some just want a little more power out of the stock motor and others want to scare Corvette owners to death.  Then there are those in the middle.

Jake

I think the most power to be gained from one replaced part would be the camshaft,  you can change a cam for about a buck fifty.  How expensive would a turbo set up be, saying we are buying the stuff new.  And wouldnt you need to change camshafts anyway if you were to convert to turbo?
Therefore my logic in saying camshaft.

DTD: The cam is the same for a n/a or turbo non-roller. I agree, just "one" part would would be the cam, but adding a "turbo" does not allow that; You need many other parts to hook it up and make the car run (durably).

I have done both a cam on a bone stock engine, and a "header" to a different one, then both one one engine. In my opinion the power gains from either alone are almost not noticeable, cam alone is slightly better, and the two togeather is only slightly better than that. If you are using a stopwatch you will see a difference. I have felt a better increase by deleting the p/s.

Don't expect a header to do much with the stock exhaust either.

Bill

Turbo's actually want cams that are closer to stock than anything else.  Installing a turbo on a stock motor will net you a lot as long as you keep the boost down and you won't really have to do anything to the inside of the motor.  Now a cam to take full advantage will need a little carb tweaking, cylinder head work (if even just a port matching) header and a better exhaust.  A better cams whole reason is really better breathing at its most basic.  If it can't get the extra air it wants and get it out then a cam really has not done much.  Of course the same could be said for a turbo system.  I agree that a cam is a good upgrade.  But even if you did a cam with all the other stuff listed to go with it a well thought out turbo system will give you much more power and drivability.  As long as you stay out of the boost your gas mileage won't even really be affected.  Too me that says the best power adder for your hard earned greenbacks.

Jake

Didnt the question say that it was for the money and if you swap a t/c 2.3 motor in a pinto you definitly like the difference way better than just a cam or header.  I think its got to be the best option for the money spent plus theres even more power later that you can pull from the motor if you get more money to spend on it.

You would not need to even swap in a turbo 2.3.  Although admittedly that is the best option.  You could use a turbo 2.3 manifold and turbo to build an inexpensive blow-thru setup.  Keeping it at 4 lbs. of boost or below would get you a real nice runner.  You could kick it to 6-8 psi by adding an ignition retard unit like a HKS EGC.  That would take car of the detonation.  You would have a pretty nice runner.  Although I think 8 would be a mistake on a driver 6 psi with a EGC unit or something similar would work well.

Jake

Be careful with those stock Cast pistons though........... :o

Oh yeah.  That would be the purpose of the HKS EGC (Electrical Govenor Control).  It take manifold boost pressure and allows you to rebuild a new timing signal based on boost pressure.  So you can retard the ignition based on the boost from the turbo.  They work really well.  They are a little tough to find these days but are still out there.  I am willing to bet the stock pistons will take 6 psi if you can keep the detonation under control.

Jake

On my Black Pangra I am using a Mallory Hyfire VII ( 7 ) series Ignition box. Some of the features are. (2) rev limiters, Auto start retard ( so you can advance your Dist. but it will start up at base., and what I like is it has a single stage retard which is adjustable from .1 deg to 25 deg and uses a MAP sensor. With this, I can adjust my timing to retard as the boost comes up in about any increment I want.

Exactly the same deal.  Probably with a bit newer electronics as the EGC units have been discontinued for some time now.  They even made one called a HKS DIS EGC unit.  The DIS referred to (Distrubutorless Ignition System).  Essentially it turned the distrubutor into a sort of crank sensor.  Cam with coil packs and everything with a EGC built in and a high energy ignition system that check resistence in the plugs and wires before every firing and adjusted voltage.  Unfortenuatly they were only made for 6 cylinder engines.  I have one never used and they are really tuff to come by.  I just have nothing to use it on right now.  I am using another one on my Dad's 63 Corvair Spyder turbo.  Works really well.

Jake

Quote from: 77turbopinto on May 10, 2006, 07:30:43 AM
DTD: The cam is the same for a n/a or turbo non-roller.

  I was given a brand new .420 turbo non roller cam one time, I took my tired old stock cam out and put the other one in, and it was the biggest turd I ever ran in a pinto,  any ideas why if they are the same cam?

Yeah.  Depends on what turbo it was made to run with.  Chances are what you got was a cam made to work with a very aggressive aftermarket turbo.  We have been talking about factory turbos up to this point.  Just throwing a turbo on like a T4 onto a 2.3 is not going to work.  Everything has to be compatible.  On my Toyota I have a set of cams that would cause the engine to just barley get out of its own way without the turbo in place.

Jake

No it was a stock factory cam, but new.  Someone i know got the bright idea that since the rules at the track stated they couldn't use anything but stock parts and you weren't allowed any more lift than .420 that they would try a stock turbo cam, but i think they finished next to last and gave the cam to me then.

Turbos want less lift.  This is not something good for non turbo situations.  They also want less lobe seperation.

Jake

Quote from: 77turbopinto on May 10, 2006, 07:30:43 AM
DTD: The cam is the same for a n/a or turbo non-roller.

Ok just wondering.

Quote from: Gaslight on May 18, 2006, 09:18:24 PM
Turbos want less lift.  This is not something good for non turbo situations.  They also want less lobe seperation.

Jake

What ???, I think you might have wanted to say, Turbos want less duration.

I guess I should clarify that.  The newer generation of turbos.  I am lucky enough to be just down the street from Innovatine turbo and Turbonetics and have both of them as customers.  As a result i get to see a lot of testing going on.  They are finding that with the new generation of dual ball bearings and Inconel hybrid wheels that the valves do not have to open as far or as long to make more horsepower.  The turbos are being used as almost a second engine on there own now as they no longer have to run in spurts and can pretty much stay on all the time now.  Its one of the ways they are reducing lag.

Jake

Quote from: Gaslight on May 25, 2006, 02:48:29 PM
I guess I should clarify that.  The newer generation of turbos.  I am lucky enough to be just down the street from Innovatine turbo and Turbonetics and have both of them as customers.  As a result i get to see a lot of testing going on.  They are finding that with the new generation of dual ball bearings and Inconel hybrid wheels that the valves do not have to open as far or as long to make more horsepower.  The turbos are being used as almost a second engine on there own now as they no longer have to run in spurts and can pretty much stay on all the time now.  Its one of the ways they are reducing lag.

Jake

You've lost me on that one... Care to ask them for an explanation...

Well I get what they are doing.  I am running one of these turbo's on my Supra.  What explanation do you want?

Jake

However, It is all a combination of your " air pump machine" or engine. As we run 2.0, 2.3 and 2.5 single overhead cam engines, the combo can get log jambed with lack of air flow. For instance. My 2.5  Aluminum head engine has some pretty good air flow through it. I am running a 585 lift x 235 duration roller cam. Now, that sounds like a big cam BUT, at about 5,600 RPM the engine starts to fall off ( not that I need to run it over 5,600 rpm, I make 320 hp at 5,000 rpm) but the point is that the reason it falls off is because I am encountering a " restriction" in the " air pump" ( read engine). I know its not the head, Its not the turbo, It could be the exhaust manifold and it " may" be the cam ( not preforming up to the level of the other componuts). Other engines such as mine have used a 620 lift cam with great success. If I was going to spend money on my engine I would first start with the exhaust, THEN, up size the cam to a minimum 620 lift. Anyway, just my 2c.

Basically take them your statement... and tell them some guy on the net wants to know how/why...
cause I'm not getting it... Maybe it's one of those outside the box things... cause I have a hard time just thinking inside my head... but I'm always up for learning something new...

or if you understand it... maybe you could explain it...

Exactly right.  My duration comment should not be taken as a blanket statement.  And engines need to be built with and combination in mind to make sure they work together.  What is starting to happen with turbo engines being built of late (at least around here) is therory is changing a bit.  With less duration the lower RPM range of and engine makes more power sooner.  The tubo is being used to pressurize the cylinders to make the horspower up in the upper RPM's.  One of the limiting factors has always being bearing design and shaft RPM.  Now these newer generation of turbo's have bearings allowing for shaft RPM's up to 175K and beyond.  But you are right as this principal does not apply to every motor without considerstions.

Jake