Just started doing some test fits of a 351W/C4 into a '74 Pinto. The engine itself fits quite nicely, but it's when you put headers on that the fun begins. I've got a few different types of headers to try, and I'll use the setup that requires the LEAST amount of surgery. I already assume the fenderwells are gone, and tho I love the reverse Mustang shorty idea, the notion of notching what little frame there is doesn't appeal to me.
The rear end has already been swapped for a MII 8" (which is literally a bolt in swap), and I'll be using a motor plate for mounting. I plan on doing some surgery to the oil pan to clear the steering rack as well.
What's the general consensus in regard to how far back to get the motor? Since I'm using a C4, do I just use the trans mount s a reference, and locate the trans/engine unit that way?
Thanks
Paul
Hello there!
When you use the stock c4 V8 mount on the pinto crossmember you have to drill new mounting holes about an inch foward and that puts the rear of the block within about 3/4 inch of the firewall. The major interferance is with the wiring loom at this point. it basicly makes a 90deg bend, and in my case ,almost rubs the head. in my 71 i thought about cutting out the firewall to make some more clearance and shove it back a couple of inches. But that was going to be a MAJOR headache. Id have had to move the wiring loom, moved the heater box back, plus because im using the mustang II headers id have had to make some Big bumps near trans tunnel interfereing with my feet and the passengers .(They almost hit as it is.)
Talk to 78pinto on this one for the headers. I beilive that he uses Hooker 351 swap headers in his 78 drag car.
I dont think youd want the mustang II headers for the 351 as there barely adequate for the performance 302. 1/2 primarys and 3 inch collectors. Plus i had to do some major surgery on the headers to get them to fit the way i wanted. ( one mig welder, a half dozen mandrel bends, lots of patience and about 6 to 7 weeks of weekends to weld these things up from not fitting very well ,to fitting real snug but well)
Im not sure but i think that you might want to check out the Milodon deep sump pan for the 351. If its like the 302 you wont need to cut up your stock pan. + get some more oil capacity.
good luck,Robert
That looks excellent, Robert. I *may* have the header issue licked, by means of some tight tuck shorty headers from Patriot, but more on that later.
I'm in New England and since this is going to be a non-winter car, I was thinking of ditching the heater altogether. Something tells me this is going to be a hot ride anyway and I'd gain some room by getting rid ot the heater hoses and blower...any cons to that?
I just ordered a new trans mount from Energy Suspension, so I'll get the engine trans located soon-
Thanks
Paul
OK, with everything in it's right place approximately (using crossmember and trans as a locator), and after some Sawzall surgery, the Patriot tight tuck street rod headers *almost* fit. I may dimple the pipes instead of cutting into the frame anymore (which I plan on reinforcing afterwards). I hate dimpling the headers, but I figure I'm still ahead of using manifolds in terms of restriction. I did flip sides with the headers, so they exit in front of the steering & crossmember, pointing more or less down.
Hey,
looks like you might be on to something , good luck!
As far as removing the heater assy, i dont see any issues with that. However if you are trying to set the engine back remember the windshield wiper links under and near the cowl. You might lose those too. But being a summer car it might be an acceptable loss.
Just remember that if you start down that road, to scrape out all the undercoating in the interior near the area of modification. This stuff catches Fire when you are welding on the "firewall" (lol).
Good luck and have fun doing it!
Robert
looking good! Do you have a picture of those headers outside the car, i'd love to see what they look like!? Do you have a part number for them also, they might work well for a turbo application.
Summit's part # on those headers is PTE-H8427. I love how they just dump straight down. Might be handy for uncorking at the track!
What's the general wisdom on those flimsy frame rails? I've taken the lip down pretty god on the passenger side (tho not actually INTO the rail itself).
Do people put big bolts thru the rails to help keep them together? I may just run a bead of weld along the seam at the top and let it go at that.
Earlier Robert mentioned using a Milodon deep sump pan for the 351 to get around the steering/crossmember. has anyone actually done this? It looks like the pan would work, but that's a $225 gamble...
Thanks
Paul
Hey again. The milodon pan has a "relief" on the area between the sump and the shallow part of the pan. Its more squared off. Verses the stock pan has a very gentle bend and thats what causes the interference on the rack. Check ebay , never know, may get a good deal.
When i made bolt holes for the motor mounts in the frame rails i reinforced them with some tubing larger than the bolt that you will use. I then drilled a hole of about 3/4 where i wanted them with a Irwin multi step drill. they are about $45. (If your interested ill sell you a new one for 20 if you want it. I picked up a new one that was the wrong size. )
Anyways ,weld the tubing in from both sides and grind it flush on the mounting side.
Yes re-weld the seam for sure . As far as the structure goes there isn't much thats going on for strength as far as the inner fender-wells. They basically hold up the fenders and the wiring loom. LOL
Id reinforce them with some 1/2 square tubing in some areas that seem wiggly now that its cut out.
Don't forget to weld some kind of connector from the front subframe to the rear torque boxes( the pocket where the front leaf bolts) I used some 3x 1 1/2 rectangular tubing and notched out the floor .( man was that work)
Good luck ,Robert
PTSherman, Yes you at the part where you want to tuck that baby in as low as it will go.Which will allow you to go back as far as you can go. I did the trick with a 302/c4. I layed my block on it's back and threw in a couple of connecting rods. And based on that I allowed 1/2 inch clearence. Then I went to the oil pan guy and he made me this. It is a 65 mustang pan carved out. It's configuration is the same as the pan 71hotrod suggests. He is right in as that inside radius is a fooler and the sharp 90 is best. If my guy were to make one of these for you he would want at least 200. So it is not to much of a gamble for you, measure from your pan mount surface to the conecting rod clearence and call them and ask what their pan depth is on the back end. My pan to rack clearence is -1/8th of and inch.
High_Horse
I had planned on doing that pan mod myself to a cheap 351W pan I picked up, tho I DID like the idea of getting increased capacity with the Milodon (and yeah, the gold color is cool too).
Anyway, I've got the engine back as far as I can (pretty much right up against the wiring harness), and I'll have to split the rack/crank clearance when I build the pan.
I'll probably only have to elongate the trans crossmember holes a bit to get that to fit with a stock mount. The driveshaft seems like it's about an inch or so from being a perfect fit; at what point is it necessary to shorten the shaft?
Thanks
Paul
ptsherman, it looks like your rack is narrower then mine. It might be the pre-76 thing. My first step was to get the engine and trans positioned. As I was using a v6 car I was able to use my stock tranny mount and cradle but did turn the cradle around backwards without drilling any holes. If you have the werewithall to mod the pan then you can always add cylindrical extentions off the sides of the sump end for increased volumetric capacity. I was going to do that to mine but I was hot to trot. Another thing I did was to make ridged mounts so I was confident that where I liked the engine/trans placement was exactly where it would be. I used a 2 by four across the engine compartment with a cable sling under the pan to hold it up so I could zero in on mount position and still have jiggle capabilities. I took an even 2 inches off of my drive shaft. But yours may be a different amount. So my procedure was #1-mod. oil pan and get it on.#2-trans mount/ sling would help. #3- with trans mount in sling the motor and fittup motormounts. #4- driveshaft.
High_Horse
http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=30925&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&searchinresults=false&N=0&target=egnsearch.asp (http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=30925&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&searchinresults=false&N=0&target=egnsearch.asp)
Well I dont beilive its a gamble, but it is your money LOL
Yno as a side note ive heard many a time of people NOT using a high volume oil pump because of the horspower loss, tight bearing clearances etc, and then they end up having lower than expected oil pressure anyways
Im using a high volume melling pump with prob 5-30 or similar oil after the engines "broken in"( hopefully not broken)
Where im leading to is that if you do run a high volume then you should have increased sump capacity besides it can help with cooling to a certian point how much i dont know. ( do i sound like a salesman for milodon?? Sorry LOL)
Certianly call them first to get some dimentions first. Or you could call SummitRacing and ask about there return policy.
Good luck
Robert
Hm. I'll have to ebay some stuff to pay for one of those pans...looks slick!
I've also got a Melling HV pump, figuring as a goof-around drag toy the engine is going to see a lot more revs than it would in a truck or whatever, more centrifugal force trying to sling oil away from bearings inside.
Which brings me to my next question for Robert; what are you going to run as a gear on your distributor? Is steel the way to go, or is there some space-age adamantium super alloy gear made for when you're spinning an HV pump?
Thanks
Paul
AHHHHH Yeesss. ;)
I worried about that for a while. I run a b303 roller cam. But i have a msd distributor. MSD doesn't offer a steel gear for the 8582 distributor that i have, so i had to ask around. Hawaii racing in simi valley pointed me in the right direction for the correct FORD gear to match my factory style roller. Cant remember the part # but it was the more expensive one by $25!! >:(
I had to drill and pin the new gear on the msd shaft. The ford instructions are very clear on the way to do it but unless you have access to precision measuring instruments and an arbor-press id recommend to have someone do it for you.
Check the msd website out. i bet they have the solution for you and the 351w. in a whole distributor. Crane also makes a bitchen new distributor that id love to have but its near $300.
Whatever you do stay away from the bronze gear ,even on the standard pump you'll wear that thing out in a few thousand miles or less. i prefer to think of that as a racing only part.
Make sure to use a High quality pump driveshaft , like ARP or Milodon something that wont twist or break.
This is all assuming your running a roller cam. If your staying with the flat tappet cam then you'll have to stay with the standard iron gear either way i believe.
Oh yeah i must have ebayed about $1500 to $2000 in stuff over the last 2 years to get where I'm at today ,and I'm still going.
I'll probably have about a $7500 pinto by the time im done. Which isn't out of the question these days .At least I'm not making a race car out of it id probable need another 2500!! at least.
Good luck,Robert
My plan was to use Duraspark. I don't think I'll need anything more, so I guess I'll have to see what the Ford Motorsport guys routinely do with the HV pumps. I just don't want to be pulling the distributor regularly to change gears...
I'm also running a hydraulic cam, so no worries there.
Looks like the flipped X-member trick will work to position the trans for and aft, tho I do have to widen the holes in it for the Energy Suspension trans mount. Seems odd, but the holes on the poly mount are about a third of a hole off from the X-member...
Thanks
Paul
So I went the Milodon route for the 351, and it looks pretty slick.
The pan is flat from the sump back so there's no sump interference issues, but even so the pan just about sits on the steering rack. I'd like to pick the engine up a bit to get even 1/8 of daylight. I'm using a motor plate and will chain the driver's side down so there will be little engine movement.
Here's my question...how much can you tilt an engine up? (and I'm talking a quarter or half an inch or so). Should I put a little shim in the transmission mount as well, so the whole unit gets lifted a bit?
Using the carb mount on the intake as a reference, how far from level is it safe to go?
Thanks-
Paul
Hey there,
WOW thats tight. Glad it wasn't a waste of money for you. I realized i didn't like the engine sitting up so high so I lowered my steering rack mounts about
1 1/2" . I'm going to see what the tie rod angles look like after I set the ride height of the front end so that i can avoid bumpsteer.
If you need to change the angle of the engine it will be dictated by the pinon angle. If the angle relationship is not the same from the tailshaft to the rearend yoke then you will get u/joint damaging vibrations. To be sure, there is a post somewhere on the forum that touched upon this subject.
Looks like your on your way, Cant wait to see it finished! ( mine TOO!! LOL)
Yeah, I guess that's what that extra 1/2 inch of stroke gets me!
I'll try picking the whole assembly a bit. I don't need much, and I really the the idea of taking a hammer to a new $175 pan. Anyone know how thick the steering tube is? Is there 1/8 clearance to be picked up there somewhere?
Thanks
Paul
I would not be beating on the steering tube. Mine is very close.....like 1/8th inch. I as well had the question about engine tilt. But I arbitarily went with the trans mount height figuring I could raise the rear end if need be. As it is it is no problem with the 225/70R 14'S on the back. But keep in mind sherman that you are going to have to make a shifting linkage. And I did find out that my trans tail sits a little to the passenger side and I may be experiencing this u-joint vibration that 71 was speaking about. I built rigid motor mounts to maintain that slim clearence between pan and rack,and, I am wondering what vibrations I am getting from that. Keep at it sherman. ThunderPinto vibrates a little but but it flys.
High_Horse
No, no beating, but I did take a file to the large aluminum outer housing near the ends and picked up a little clearance where it was REAL close to the pan. Between that and a little shim under the trans mount, I'm happy with my pan clearance Clarence, my carb mounting surface is damn near level, and the tail shaft is within a degree or two of the rear end. I figure I could shim under the leaf springs to get everything right on.
I'll admit, this is going a lot smoother than I had anticipated. I can even use the stock driveshaft. What I had figured on months of winter work has taken me just a couple of weeks...
I plan on using some cool shifter like a Quarter Stick, so yeah, I figured on lots of bracketry and linkage fabbing...cable seems like a good way to go there.
Thanks
Paul
Paul,
I used a TCI Thunder Stick in my Wagon. It comes with everything you need to install it. The shifter is alot beefier than the Quarter Stick. I compared it to my brother-in-laws Quarter Stick in his Camaro. It also runs the cable away from my headers, which is alot nicer, eliminates heat againist the cable.
Brian
Oooo. That is slick looking; more substantial than the Quarter Stick.
Are you using a C4 trans?
Thanks
Paul
Yes i'm using a c-4, the shifter comes with brackets for Ford, Chevy and Chrysler tranny's. I am very pleased with it, you can also get other shift plates if you go to a reverse valve body. I plan on going to a manual valve body in the future so I will go with the reverse pattern. The shifter is really strong, it is higher priced but I think you get more with it.
Brian
the easiest way ive seen in to cut a hole in the wheel well and put it though there. thats what the kits used to require as well.
PMF-
What was this in refernece to? Routing of the shifter cable?
Hate to miss out on some good advice!
Thanks
Paul
Paul,
My cable exits through the tunnel then is routed around behind the trans and goes along the drivers side of the tunnel above the trans mount. If you need a pic give me a couple days, I just let the car down off of jackstands tonight. Supposed to go play at the dragstrip Sat, as long as the weather holds out.
Brian