I have finally started installing my subframe connectors. I choose to install them inside the original frame rails to maintain clearances. That said, I now understand why most will use a channel on the bottom of the car. I used 1-1/2 x 2-1/2 x 1/8" (11 ga) rectangular tubing. I have jacked the car up and using jack stands on the suspension, am supporting the car. I also have a 6 point cage and will not do anything with it until the subframe is done so that the car remains rigid while I do this. Here are some pictures as I go.
(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/198035_10150113656196965_348192476964_6993228_5342425_n.jpg)
here is the passenger side foot well and the reason I am installing the connectors. I will be cleaning up the metal and installing the connectors. You can see that the subframe has already been patched back to the body once due to the forces of a v8.
(http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/189007_10150113656221965_348192476964_6993229_7527432_n.jpg)
layout of the drivers side. You can see the shape of the floor is close to the center line of the frame and used that to cut the front as a guide. It was a little off, but worked out good.
(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/189668_10150113656356965_348192476964_6993233_1525193_n.jpg)
Using my lines, I cut a small access hole to see where I was in reference to the structure under the floor and make sure I was able to fit the tube inside.
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/190214_10150113656396965_348192476964_6993234_5451396_n.jpg)
Test fitting the tube. It will fit under the section of floor in front of the cut. This also allowed me to use the steel to trace my cut further back. This allowed me to cut the body based on the steel and not layout.
(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/200572_10150113656441965_348192476964_6993235_7634776_n.jpg)
Here you can see the frame through the body. I tried to keep the member that crossed at the end of the frame, but found it kept the connector up too high. I will end up welding it back to the tube on the bottom side once I am done on top and am welding the seams together. (yes, I am doing that too. May be overkill, but that kinda describes the car to date)
(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/188879_10150113656631965_348192476964_6993239_4212798_n.jpg)
spot welding the subframe in place so that I can go back and stitch it in completely.
(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/190393_10150113656691965_348192476964_6993240_2703791_n.jpg)
more of the spot welding.
I will post more pictures as I get further. I have this side almost complete up top, but will need to do the bottom before too long so that I can get it coated. I do have more pictures at http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=282289&id=348192476964 (http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=282289&id=348192476964) if you are on Facebook.
Very cool! This is very informational for me! I will be watching the progression!
More Pictures
(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/189084_10150114420426965_348192476964_6999249_3090756_n.jpg)
Next up, welding the member on the underside of the car to the frame rails.
(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/196693_10150114420926965_348192476964_6999251_3072615_n.jpg)
Closing up the end of the tube. May be a mistake on my part to not continue this through and take it further back, but I used the body to close up the end of the tube. My roll bar sits on top of the start of the spring mount and will figure out something else to finish it off. I will post pictures of what I do.
(http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/188503_10150114421156965_348192476964_6999252_4605336_n.jpg)
The only bad section on the car. Worst part will be removed to put the connector in. Some patching may be required. We will see.
(http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/197953_10150114422081965_348192476964_6999255_3941192_n.jpg)
The frame rail was pretty dented up from improper jacking and what ever else can cause it. I used the jack and wood to hold the legs of the main support so that I could adjust the rail back down. The rail was being held high due to the dents.
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/199848_10150114423141965_348192476964_6999260_648602_n.jpg)
Got most of the dents out, but it seemed that the rail may have been pushed too far up when I patched it back in (or something moved) My solution was to cut the bottom of the rail out to allow the connector to sit lower. I will weld it back to the other pieces and get it back together.
(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/190140_10150114423216965_348192476964_6999261_3967895_n.jpg)
As far as I go today when I ran out of Gas and wire at the same time.
Looks good! just like the sketch.
how did you cut the floor pan?
Just one question...the tube end the has the cap, will this tie into the roll bar hoop in the interior side?
Quote from: oldeguy on March 24, 2011, 08:23:23 AM
Looks good! just like the sketch.
how did you cut the floor pan?
Just one question...the tube end the has the cap, will this tie into the roll bar hoop in the interior side?
I cut the floor pan with an angle grinder. I was very careful at the start to only cut through the top piece of sheet metal to be sure that I did not cut a second piece below if there was one there. You can feel the difference once you get going.
I will most likely tie in the roll bar hoop on the inside of the car, but I may use 1/8 inch stock to connect the bolt plate on the bottom side as the tube is flush with the floor. That is one of my design challenges since I did not carry the tube past the floor like others have done.
More Pictures
(http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/188948_10150115316796965_348192476964_7005406_8121872_n.jpg)
Mostly finished.
(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/190483_10150115316836965_348192476964_7005407_3956404_n.jpg)
Only have the hole to fill on both sides and will use some of what I cut off the floor to patch it in.
(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/190667_10150115316891965_348192476964_7005408_4783872_n.jpg)
I still need to patch the holes, but I did not want to let it sit exposed to the damp air with all of the rain we are getting. I still also need to figure out how to tie in the suspension.
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/188958_10150115317001965_348192476964_7005410_7713776_n.jpg)
I realized that I should have continued the connector through so that the cross bar could tie in, but I have several ideas in my head at the moment. You can see my bolt plate for the roll bar sitting on part of the tab for the front suspension. I could also weld on the angle of the rear across to the perch, but that would require me dropping the rear suspension and I am not thrilled about that idea. Last is to make a new bolt plate that runs from the bar out to the cage. I may also do it inside the car if I choose to weld the cage into the car.
Just a thought....
to tie the subframe to the rollbar, a sq tube piece fish mouth to the roll bar hoop, then 90* to the newly welded in subframe sq. tube. may have to overlap the newly welded subframe, but i think that would look good and tie it together nicely.
for the spring perch, kind of the same thing only maybe using a section of round tubing, or maybe a flat stock gusset piece, with a flat plate to connect to the perch...like the roll bar mount to the body?
my $0.02
BTW...great progress, great job on documenting the progress and nice job on the subframe install!
Quote from: oldeguy on March 25, 2011, 06:42:36 AM
Just a thought....
to tie the subframe to the rollbar, a sq tube piece fish mouth to the roll bar hoop, then 90* to the newly welded in subframe sq. tube. may have to overlap the newly welded subframe, but i think that would look good and tie it together nicely.
for the spring perch, kind of the same thing only maybe using a section of round tubing, or maybe a flat stock gusset piece, with a flat plate to connect to the perch...like the roll bar mount to the body?
my $0.02
BTW...great progress, great job on documenting the progress and nice job on the subframe install!
Thank you for the kind words. I have had the same thought, but am currently at a cross roads.
Do I weld the cage to the body or do I keep it as is and keep it bolted in. If I weld it in, I would use the method you mentioned using the material I already have along with some additional steel reinforcement on the underside. IF I keep it bolted, I would run gusseted 1/8" thick tabs off the connector making new bolt plates on the bottom side. I am also thinking of making tabs for my seats when I get new ones. What you are not seeing is that I also have a drive shaft loop that I plan on using to connect the 2 connectors and also protect the car from any issues if it were to blow a front U joint (not that I plan on any hard starts :evil: )
the crossroad...bolt vs weld on the 6 point?
so...what is the benefit of having the 6 point roll bar bolted in?
Can it be removed?
what is the disadvantage of having it welded in place?
Think a written list of pro vs con on each option would be my approach, once done, leave it for a day then review it, but I'm sure your doing something like this.
Solved the debate, It was sanctioning bodies of all things. If for NHRA, I kept finding that Bolted with sandwich plates was prefered, for SCCA, they wanted it bolted or welded. After looking more at my car, I found that some idiot took a grinder to some of the welds on 2 of the bar connections and made the cage no good in the eyes of NHRA, so I made the executive decision to pull the bolts and weld it to the body. To get it out would require either cutting the car or the roll bar.
On with more pictures. (http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/200725_10150115934656965_348192476964_7010006_7761105_n.jpg)
First is to remove any and all paint using what ever method you want. I ended up using wire brushes on my grinder, drill and dremel depending on space requirements. You can see my notes that there was a tear where the sandwich plates sheared through the body and it looks like 2 of the spots have been pulled. The one on the right looks like it almost tore out. The underside will be next weeks adventure as I need to pull the exhaust and drive shaft to add more stuff. See Below.
(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/190183_10150115934751965_348192476964_7010008_4090244_n.jpg)
Spot weld first, then remove the bolts and then follow through with the continuous welds around.
(http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/200289_10150115934981965_348192476964_7010013_2548105_n.jpg)
When welding, take care of the seam sealer and other flammable items like the thick rubber guard between the door and front tire. (oops)
(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/197048_10150116165366965_348192476964_7012144_3504340_n.jpg)
When done, apply primer. Notice my patch panel over the hole that was left from the day before. I had scrap steel from an old cut up Pinto Hood and used a hole saw to cut the piece out. Then cut it in half and removed the paint for the perfect piece. Welded to the connector first since my main current went through there and then hammered the panel in place to fit the surrounding panels.
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/188958_10150115317001965_348192476964_7005410_7713776_n.jpg)
Working out how to connect the suspension, but will most likely place my structural steel on the angle provided by the car (30 degrees) and have it die into the perch on one side and run closer to the tunnel.
(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/188940_10150115316956965_348192476964_7005409_8152086_n.jpg)
While the car has the exhaust out, I will pull the drive shaft and install the drive shaft loop. It will be installed between the subframe connectors and could possibly provide some additional support. Do not know if I will weld it in place, but the likely hood is there. While there, I will also pull the drive shaft seal from the transmission and get it replaced so I can keep it full and not burn out 4th any further than it already is.
More to be posted next week.
Let me join those who are following along and are admiring your engineering and welding work. My Blown Pinto was built in the mid 1970's along similar work of being back halved with welded in frame connectors and an 8 point roll cage. Although certified to drag race back in the 1970-1980's, it is out of certification now and that is why I am making it street legal.
Your welding looks good to my eye. Only you can be the true judge and you seem very conscious of the safety issues which are extremely important. You also need to be commended on the presentation of your progress. Excellent pictures and easy to follow descriptions. Looking forward to more progress postings.
Dick
Hey there , great work. Very clean.
I would definiatly attach the leaf eyes to the connectors. Its the only solid thing back there. All the forces of acceleration are acting on those 2 leaf eyes.
Heres how i did it.
Quote from: 71hotrodpinto on March 26, 2011, 10:09:23 PM
Hey there , great work. Very clean.
I would definiatly attach the leaf eyes to the connectors. Its the only solid thing back there. All the forces of acceleration are acting on those 2 leaf eyes.
Heres how i did it.
Thanks for the picture. If you look at my pictures I stupidly stopped the tube early and did not continue it through the body. Looking at what I do have though, I can do one of several things.
1) take a small piece of tube on the outside of the body (not curved as your photo shows) on the angle and end it at the eye.
2) take a tube inside my tube and extend it to where I need to go
3) Put another piece of tube on top of the connector through the body and then make the right turn to the eye.
Those are just off the top of my head, i will be looking at it further tomorrow so that I can get something done before I move onto the next step which is closing in my body around my fuel cell cage I made so that I can safely put the windows back in with out fear of gassing my self to death.
I will also be welding the spring perches to the car since I know that they are only spot welded in place and have seen some fatigue on the passenger side front one where the spots looked to be pulling through.
I will post more tomorrow night as I get more done.
More pictures
(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/200183_10150119440986965_348192476964_7040742_7425569_n.jpg)
Started off the day by removing paint, undercoating and what ever else is under the car to make it so that I can weld the perches to the body. I could definitely see that if loaded, it would not take much to remove it from the car. Even if you do not plan on installing a subframe connector, look into making the spring perch a more solid connection. I also have figured out how I will do my connection, but more on that later....
(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/190173_10150119441171965_348192476964_7040746_5006994_n.jpg)
Sorry, jumped sides for ease of pictures from under the car (no lift) This is the passenger side and you can see that the perch is just spot welded to both the body and other pieces of the assembly. Also, if you look closely to the right of the oval tie down location, you will notice that when I welded the cage to the floor, it pushed the corner of the cage through the floor in the corner. It will be welded up as well. You can also see where my cage has been welded and notice that the top of the cage mounting plate was in fact directly over the spring perch.
(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/200029_10150119441336965_348192476964_7040749_4574002_n.jpg)
Starting to weld the perch up to the body. Still need to remove a little debris before I finish up top.
(http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/207394_10150119441401965_348192476964_7040751_317945_n.jpg)
Once done, I got back up and went on top. I think I can now guess the permieter of the mount. The main portion was made of 1/8" steel with the minor portion being around 14 to 16 gauge around the alignment holes.
I will have more updates on thursday then not until next monday.
Looking good!
Is it just me or does it look like a face in the pic of the hanger? Kinda straight up from the weld and to the right of the spring bolt. Could it be Jesus?... :surprised:
Just kidding about it being Jesus...but it really looks like a face to me lol
Quote from: RSM on March 30, 2011, 11:29:03 PM
Just kidding about it being Jesus...but it really looks like a face to me lol
your right, it looks more like the Virgin Mary than Jesus.
Thanks for the smile.
looks like a bum i saw climbing out of a railroad car at work one night!
need to get some of the stuff you guys are taking ;D
It a smilie face with the two e d b d I's and the ovaled mouth!
Now back to the subframe spring perch tie in...in my eyes your going to have two major forces, one trying to pull the perch back (spring rap) and up (the torque transfer under hard acceleration. so, need to address how to tie these forces into your present subframe and roll bar. my $0.02
I will take a picture of it tonight, but it will be tied back into the subframe connector.
Because I did not take the connector out past the back of the body, I have decided to place the 90 degree piece against the body and connector. This will die directly into the spring perch near the bolt for the spring. From there, I will use one of my bolt plates (before I welded the roll bar in) and weld the plate on 3 sides (connector, vertical spring bracket, and the piece I weld to the body and connector. If close enough, I may finish it up and weld the 4th side to the body (under the roll bar base plate) From the 90 degree connector toward the back of the car, I may cut the other bolt plate into a gusset and take it back to the back of the spring perch. If that does not tie it in, I do not know what will other than back halfing the car and that is not in the near future.
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/207410_10150139949386965_348192476964_7049321_50658_n.jpg)
Cut these pieces to fit and then welded the ends to keep moisture out. Still have to close up the tie down location on the perch side.
(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/199595_10150139949586965_348192476964_7049322_6969872_n.jpg)
Tacked into place checking for any additional issues.
(http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/200430_10150139949961965_348192476964_7049324_1953492_n.jpg)
Holding up one of the bolt plates from the cage to determine if it will work and to see where I will need to apply the primer before I weld it in place
(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/199238_10150139950211965_348192476964_7049326_1750590_n.jpg)
Welded it in place. I did not tie it to the sheet metal, only the structural pieces and the spring perch mounts. I will go back and seal up any gaps I have left with some sort of sealant prior to any application of under coating
(http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/205810_10150139950256965_348192476964_7049328_1874504_n.jpg)
Applied primer to the top side of the weld plates so that it will be sealed for the most part. I also sprayed primer to the bottom of the car that I had cleared off where it was going to be covered.
(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/197416_10150139950286965_348192476964_7049329_4638086_n.jpg)
Tacked the plate into place for a final fitment
(http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/205059_10150139950361965_348192476964_7049331_7267033_n.jpg)
Fully welded it into place where it met the structural members. I also welded the spring perch pieces together to make sure that they would not pull apart. May be over kill, but that seems to be the theme lately.
Next week so that it is ready for the show, I will put the driveshaft loop in and change out the rear trans seal so that it may stop leaking and causing more damage to the transmission. After that, it will be reassembly to get it ready for the show.
Looking good! I'm tagging along on some of these Pinto frame upgrade threads since I plan to drop a 289 or 302 (whichever is still available 5-10 years from now) into my 78. It's always been my dad's dream to drop a 289 into the car...
This should be my last update for this before the show as I am in assembly mode to get it ready for the show. I still have some welding on the back section of the car, but that is not critical for the show and will not be done until after.
On with more pictures.
(http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/216299_10150149861436965_348192476964_7090430_7004539_n.jpg)
between my subframe connectors, I put in a drive shaft safety loop that I have had for the last 6 years since I started. It is a simple one from Summit Racing, but will do its job when needed (hopefully never)
(http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/206886_10150149861456965_348192476964_7090431_4382751_n.jpg)
Here you can see that I used some 1'8" flat stock to make a tab to hold it in place and bolt through to the body for 2 bolts on each side. The connector can be removed as needed once the bolts are removed by either sliding forward or back.
no more pictures unless there is a catastrophic failure, but I will say that they are doing something... I lost 3/4 of my rattles, squeaks and creaks. Front suspension still makes noise, but I expect that. I have picked up one new sound from the rear end, but may be due to my attachment to the spring perch.
My recommendation to anyone, install a connector if you plan on putting any power into the car. I had no idea how much of a flexi flyer the car actually was.
Great job on the docmentation of this project!
Enjoy driving the improved Pinto!!!!
It's been awhile since this was done, wondering if you could describe the sound from the rear that you have now? I'm wondering if it's something I could live with if I decide to do connectors this way (it's what I've been tossing around in my head).
I am amazed at how much less the body flexes. not much in noises except for the rear body panel near the right tail light, but that is due to a different reason. it would be best to connect between the front and rear spring perches of the rear axle. but that will be for another day.
next project is the front suspension.