OK I got a doozy...
For the last couple of days while driving Ruby to and from work I've noticed a couple things. One- she does some weird vibrations... sometimes when I accelerate, but mostly when I'm not. For instance when I put her in neutral from 4th gear (as in coasting to a stop or slower traffic) she'll vibrate loudly like I'm driving on a road that has recently been scraped before a new blanket of asphalt is laid. She does this in the 35-45 mph range. If I downshift from 4th to 3rd I don't get the vibrations. Also, if I'm in gear (especially 2nd or 3rd) and I don't have my foot pressed on the accelerator she vibrates.
The second issue (and I won't be shocked if they're related) is when I'm in gear she makes a loudish "clump" noise every time I press the accelerator pedal- even lightly, just to maintain speed. This noise definitely sounds like it's coming from around the transmission area. The vibrating is harder to pinpoint.
Despite these noises and feelings she runs well, shifts well (though now and then I hear a different "clunk" noise. The "clump" noise sounds like muffled backfires... and it definitely doesn't sound like when my late '72 had a bad U-joint. Is Ruby in trouble? I have about 2 months and very little funds to get her roadworthy enough to make this trip to Carlisle. It looked like I was definitely going to the Stampede and show, but I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. Did it? Please help! Thank you.
What comes to mind from my experience with vibrations both from the C4 automatic and the 4spd manual transmissions, are as follows...
Bad pinion preload (unlikely to happen out of nowhere like this)
Bad u-joint (I would think it would happen all the time if this were the case)
Slipping clutch (probably not your case since you notice this in neutral)
Bad transmission mount (happened on brownie, vibrated like a beast regardless of what gear was selected)
Easiest check would be your transmission mount. For Brownie, the original mount literally tore in half and the transmission was just sitting on the cross member. Without anything to hold the transmission in place or cushion any movement against the car, it was a LOUD ride, even just sitting in park!
If it's the U-joint, twist/turn the drive-shaft. It should be SOME, but not much. I would say anything around 90 degrees of free movement is a DEAD giveaway.
If it is your axle causing the vibration, the first thing I would check is the pinion flange. Easy enough to do with the drive-shaft still on the car. Try moving/sliding the driveshaft towards the back and front of the car. It shouldn't move at all, but on my 78's original 6.75" axle, the pinion parts were so out of alignment that it could move back and forth a good 1/4" (not a good thing!).
Dave, this is a dumb question... but... does the rear need to be on jackstands to perform these tests? Also... thank you for this info. It doesn't sound too major...whew!
No question is a dumb one!
No, it doesn't have to be on jack stands to test/check these things. It does help though, to get under the car with some moving room.
Pinto's don't sit very high above the ground you know! lol :P I have smacked my head and elbows against the bottom of the car and the ground a few times myself while crawling around under the car without any stands to hold it up!
When you check for excessive drive-shaft movement, pull the e-brake so it is engaged, keeping the wheels from moving.
It has been awhile since I was last under the car, but you will see the transmission cross member somewhere in the middle of the floor. When you find the tailshaft (back end) of the transmission, push up on it. It shouldn't move much, if any at all. If you can lift the transmission up and away from the cross member, you need a new transmission mount.
Transmission mounts are cheap and easy to install to! Maybe a total of 4-6 bolts to remove.
Looks like Saturday is Pinto Day! lol Thank you again Dave. I definitely need it on jackstands... I just wasn't sure I needed the rear wheels suspended. I can't wait to see what's going on! ;D
Would it help if I mentioned that the "clump" noise sounded like it was in front of me and to the right? (as if I'm driving).
Like from the engine compartment area? It COULD be a broken motor mount, but I would think you would notice that in neutral due, and the vibration would be pretty bad, if so.
The transmission really has very little room in the tunnel to move around. with a broken transmission mount, the transmission will twist clockwise, with the tail shaft pointing towards the rear driver's side tire. With this is mind, the front right of the transmission's bell housing vibrates against the tunnel, as well as the tail shaft/drive-shaft.
Think of the physical location of things and how they tie together in relation to contact of the undercarriage. A bit technical and in depth, I know. :(
Some of your sound,vibration reminds me of a rear end that was running too low on gear oil in a old pick up I had. But ..... at large, it almost all sound too simular to what I noted in my van when I first got it and the tranny mount was broken and the rubber boot was missing on it. The most noticable on that was when I would throw it in reverse as it would get extremely worse with the addes stress and "reversed" load on it. That was a BBC350 with auto in it. It would vibrate and rattle when I put a load on the tranny in forward. But, would clunk and really vibrate and grunt and groan when I threw it in reverse and started backing up. So I would check the mounts first. Even the engine mounts. Then double check all fluids you can at that point! If after this it still happens, I wouldnt have any clue!
At first I was going to say u-jount, and it still may be the front joint, but how about the exhaust hitting something? U-joint would give you the clunk but most of the time they vibrate on acelleration, but the front joint can fool ya. PM sent :)
Tinkerman, you might be onto something... I have been smelling gear oil (you know that nauseating smell) for a little while now... but haven't noticed any puddles relating to the transmission or differential. I did check the tranny oil level (my finger was able to touch the oil) but not the differential.
Jimmy, when I was under Ruby trying to figure out the clutch cable debacle I got frustration boredom (where you can't quite crack the case so your eyes and imagination drift...) and I remember "playing" with the exhaust pipe. It felt pretty firm.
Thank you guys for your input. I got lots of investigating to do!!!
P.S. It does seem sometimes that putting a load on the engine (like tapping on the accelerator) makes that clump noise- as opposed to the clunk noise I associate with a bad U-joint.
I think Dave is correct, the trans mount. Because it has been acting up for a while the gear oil smell is from the rear trans seal. When the drive shaft is moving it can rip/tear the seal, also putting undue stress on the u-joints. Check the motor mounts at the same time they are more than likely also fatigued.
Good luck
Ok here's what I did:
I added gear oil to the differential housing because my handy Q-tip said the level was more than a quarter inch below the filer hole; I manhandled the driveshaft like Dave suggested (it moved, but nowhere near 90 degrees); I pushed the driveshaft forward and back- not much movement there to indicate a problem; THEN I peered in the area where the transmission is bolted onto the engine... what's this... a bolt!? One of the attaching bolts had loosened itself and fell between the engine and the starter, so I removed the starter to get the bolt, then refastened said bolt and put starter back on. I took her for a test drive... and the issues are still there. >:(
What I failed to elaborate on is that when the vibration is going on, it's more like a noise than a vibration. When the car's coasting in neutral and I'm going about 25 or less mph the vibration noise stops, but in the 45-55 range it's loud, like it's road noise. The clump noise- now more like a thump or a manly tap- is still present and heard towards the front of the car towards the passenger side.
I'd check the wheels and make sure they're not loose, I had a wheel on a chevy cavalier that didn't quite fit over the center so it was bolted on tight but fit at a slight angle causing weird vibrations (every three seconds at 60 mph), also could have thrown a weight or have caked mud inside the rim causing it to be out of balance (That same cavalier was bad for trapping mud). Also check the exhaust and make sure its not rubbing the driveshaft or back tire. Lastly it could possibly be a loose flywheel, my Mustang had one that vibrated a little but it also sounded like a rod knocking at idle so that's probably not your problem.
Thank you 2.3stangii. No mud anywhere near the tires/wheels. I checked the tires but so far they look good. If it threw a weight, would it make that noise like you're driving on that ribbed strip on highways to keep drivers from faling asleep? THis whole thing is very strange. I did check the exhaust- it's firmly in place (my '73 wagon is another story) but tell me more about the flywheel...please.
This may be a odd question to throw at the monkey wrench, but, do these have a small wieght on the plate? Got thinking of my old grandfathers dodge van. He blew a motor in it and ended up selling the thing cheap. It was a auto. The new buyer bought it to put a new motor in it and sell it. However, he replaced it with the wrong size motor. Long story short, it vibrated like heck! He sold it, but did not make squat on it! The new guy took it home, dropped the tranny and ground the wieght off of the plate, put it all together and viola, drove beautiful! Anyways, the point being, if there was supposed to be a balancer wieght and it came loose, could it do this? Again, probably just adding to the mess of maybe it could bes and probably isnt's as I am sure its something simple. Just someone has to hit the nail on the head. LOL. Next.....
This is a stick-shift car, so I don't know if that makes a difference. I thought I had it all figured out when I found that mounting bolt. I made sure all the bolts were good and tight after replacing the one that went AWOL. I'll try to look at the motor mounts tomorrow... although from the top they look ok.
Now this makes me think back to when I was considering buying a 72 runabout with a 4spd stick shift.
A friend was looking at the car with me and mentioned something about flywheel bolts. He said the Pintos were great cars and very reliable mechanically except for one issue, the flywheel bolts. He said they would back themselves out of the crankshaft if you didn't drown them with high strength thread locker (loctite). I never thought anything of that statement because I've never EVER had issues with flywheel bolts backing out!
While I personally find it unlikely, I'm wondering if it is possible that your flywheel may be loose.....You WERE having issues with the clutch, correct?
Here is another theory. I'm not saying you didn't anything wrong and I don't want to step on anyone's toes either, therefore this is only a THEORY!
Perhaps when you adjusted the clutch cable you adjusted it to tight....If this were the case, for example, it would be like pressing down on the clutch pedal half way through engaging/releasing the clutch, depending on how "over tight" the cable was adjusted.
Now, if this is the case, think of it as clutch slip.
When you shift into gear with the clutch in, you are setting up the transmission to run in, say, third gear. Now when you let the clutch pedal back out, you are allowing the flywheel and the clutch friction surface (which is very similar to a brake pad lining) to contact. Brake pad linings, when engaged with your brake rotor surface (your flywheel is the same as the contact surface of a brake rotor), slow the car down. That is because the friction of the brake lining against the metal of the rotor is extreme, eventually you come to a complete stop. Your clutch and flywheel contact are the same. When you push the clutch pedal in, it is like taking your foot off the brake pedal, but when you let the clutch pedal out, it's like slamming on the brakes. Both surfaces are making SO MUCH contact, that they move in unison. Thus the engine turns the transmission via the clutch friction surface!
Now, returning to the clutch slip idea. If the cable is adjusted to tightly, your clutch cannot engage completely and never makes complete contact with the flywheel. You may not notice vibrations at all speeds because the RPM of the motor vs. the load on the transmission, depending on the ratio of the gear you are in.
This cannot be directly compared to the brake comparison, though, because your wheel RPM is significantly lower than your engine RPM. Think about two spinning surfaces....One is spinning at 1900 revolutions per minute while the other is only spinning at 300 revolutions per minute. If your clutch cannot engage with the flywheel completely, those two will never mate properly and can "flutter" or "vibrate" for a lack of better terminology.
Maybe I'm just over thinking this situation, or maybe I am just blowing smoke. If so, SOMEONE PLEASE CORRECT ME!
If it's to technical, let me know, I will try to reword it.
Just because of the clunk and vibration, I'm still going with a front u-joint. Becky, you won't get 90* of movement (unless it is ready to fall out!) You need to take a large screwdriver or pry bar and try to move it up & down and see if there is any movement, between the cups or side to side. Then rotate it 90* and check it again. Get the screwdriver between the joint and put some pressure on it in different areas.
Jimmy, there is definitely movement between the cups going side-by-side. This is how ignorant I am: I thought cars only had one U-joint... and it's on the rear part of the driveshaft. Now begs the question: Is the car safe to drive, or do I need to get it replaced before driving it again? Is it an easy fix?
Dave, actually that's the best explanation on how the clutch works I've ever read! I am really clueless about the manual transmission and how it operates. I know you aren't supposed to ride or rest your foot on the clutch... but that's about all. The issue I was having was properly adjusting the clutch cable.
On the bright side, if Ruby hadn't been telling me something with her loud vibrations and other noises I wouldn't have discovered the bolt missing from where the transmission meets the engine. I'm just hoping this is a cheap and easy fix- I have a couple trips to make in the next 2-3 months!!! ;D
I'm glaed I could help broaden you knowledge! :)
If I were in your case I would change out that u-joint asap. One of my ex girlfriends used to drive my 78 shortly after rebuilding the motor. My dad and I never changed the u-joints and the rear one broke on her while going 35 mph..
I would be weary about a front one even more so,. If it breaks your drive shaft will probably hit the ground and fnegative motion againnts it might flip the car!
=hey ar,t to expensive though. $16 if I remember correctly. I use a socket and hammer to drive out the cups from the shaft and yoke.
Quote from: blupinto on March 13, 2011, 12:13:33 PM
Jimmy, there is definitely movement between the cups going side-by-side. This is how ignorant I am: I thought cars only had one U-joint... and it's on the rear part of the driveshaft. Now begs the question: Is the car safe to drive, or do I need to get it replaced before driving it again? Is it an easy fix?
Becky, I agree w/ Dave, you don't want to chance the driveshaft falling out! Not a hard job if you have done a few thousand (like me!) but there are some tricks of the trade involved. Main thing is to make sure none of the needle bearings fall over into the cup when you put it together. It can be done w/ a hammer and socket (to drive the cups in place) but a vise works much better to press them in. If you get the joint and take the driveshaft to a shop I would think they would only charge a few bucks to do it. I would do it for someone for a twelve pack!! :D I mean really, it takes all of about 5-10 minuets!! If you have to do it yourself let me know and I will guide you through it step-by-step.
BTW, did you get my PM?
Jim is right, it shouldn't cost much if you take it to a drive line shop.
Back when my rear U-joint broke, my ex left the car on the side of the road and I had to ride my bicycle a couple miles to get to it, this was before I had a license. I had to work under the car on the side of the road, without jacking it up. I didn't know how to change a U-joint at the time either, so I took the drive shaft out and brought it down the road about a half mile to a drive-line shop that replaced it with the one I purchased at O'Reilly's. They only charged me $10.00 to press the old one out and put a new one in, didn't take any longer than five minutes to do it!
Guys... I think the noise is coming from the transmission/engine area... not the driveshaft.
I wouldn't be too surprised if it were the clutch. As for the U-joint... if I can avoid it I want to not take the whole driveshaft out. Jimmy, I'll take you up on the step-by-step procedure. I don't have a clamp but I do have hammers and sockets (if you're talking ratcheting wrench sockets! lol) to do the job!
P.S. Jimmy, I have gotten your PMs and I replied to a coupler of them, but I'm beginning to think I can't reply to them via my mailbox. I can't open any PMs on the Pinto Site, so I've had to read them via my email box and reply through such. I'll try to retrieve them and resend them a different way.
Ok I surrender! Ruby's going to the transmission shop tomorrow.
I appreciate all the input you all have given me. My misfortune is I don't seem to know what I'm seeing or clooking for in terms of looseness (the U-joints) or where the transmission mount is. They'll tell me sometime tomorrow, and who knows... maybe I'll even be able to afford to get it fixed too. They're a reputable place, and they'll even give me a public employee discount. ;D I'll let you all know what the diagnosis is sometime tomorrow.
Quote from: blupinto on March 17, 2011, 07:13:56 PM
Ok I surrender! Ruby's going to the transmission shop tomorrow.
I appreciate all the input you all have given me. My misfortune is I don't seem to know what I'm seeing or clooking for in terms of looseness (the U-joints) or where the transmission mount is. They'll tell me sometime tomorrow, and who knows... maybe I'll even be able to afford to get it fixed too. They're a reputable place, and they'll even give me a public employee discount. ;D I'll let you all know what the diagnosis is sometime tomorrow.
Sending good Ju-Ju your way, Becky!!!
Dwayne :smile:
Got the good JuJu, Dwayne! Thank you! ;D
Well, it turns out I had TWO bad U-joints... and that was all that was wrong with her. She shifts and runs like a champ again, sans the vibrations and noises! The guy who runs the shop said the noise could (and ultimately did) transfer to the transmission itself. He also said the driveshaft was about ready to fall out! The shop took care of it and I'll be sending Green Meanie over there as soon as I snag an extra $400 (HA HA!). Obviously it'll be after Carlisle... unless the Car Fairy visits before then.lol
Please tell me that I'm not reading your post correctly.
They didn't charge you $400.00 to replace two u-joints !!!
I'm happy you got her fixed! Just not happy about the price you paid! :(
$400 for two u-joints? At a rough estimate of $20-25 a piece (shops even get discounts from their suppliers), and then labor...... :hypno: :hypno: :hypno:
You probably have fees for the u-joints, diagnosis, and labor on your invoice, I'm curious about how long it took for them to change them as well as the cost of their labor. Sounds spendy....
Hmmm... I didn't read it that way at all, but then, what do I know? :-\ I think she is estimating $400 to repair her green wagon at the same shop after she returns home from Carlisle this summer. Becky, PLEASE tell me I'm right about this!
Dwayne :smile:
LOL! Dwayne, you are right! The reason I took Ruby to the shop in the first place was I just couldn't figure out the problem. The noises I was hearing sounded like they were coming from the tranny, NOT the driveshaft. I hadn't gotten 90 degrees of movement when I followed Dave's directions, so while I suspected the U-joints were worn out, I didn't think that was the issue here. No, I only spent $184 and some change for parts and labor. Yeah that's expensive too, but I have peace of mind. Replacing U-joints isn't like removing a radiator or a gas tank. Those things are cut-and-dry. I have two big trips coming up... one in Buena Park (an hour away) and a MAJOR one to a certain all-Fords show in a little Pennsylvania town.
Green Meanie's clutch is needing to be replaced, so that's the $400 thing that was mentioned. Again, because I don't know what I'm doing (and there's no one here ((meaning at my house)) to help), I would rather have a professional take care of it.
Dave, if you were here I know between the two of us we could've knocked it out, as it seems you have a knack for fixing these cars. I would really learn something too... so I could do it on my own and maybe help someone else if they needed it.
Thank you all again for your help and support. Ruby simply was playing Hard To Get (the problem sorted out). She needed a Car Whisperer. ;D
Well thats a relief! I do wish I lived closer to other members. It is really a bummer being the only involved pinto owner in the boise area.
Pretty sure I diagnosed it as a u-joint..... ???
last week a buddy brought me his faithful old '84 Ranger that I put a Pinto engine in years ago, had the same concerns as yours.....sure enough, front & rear joints shot. He got new ones from Advance and I pulled the driveshaft and replaced both and charged him 40 bucks.
You really need to move to Va Becky!! Close to me!! :lol:
Jimmy, you are right and you are right! ;D
You just can't beat a man at his own game! I was confident the problem was u-joints from the moment that Jimmy said so. Not bad for a cross-country diagnosis, my friend!
Dwayne :smile: