Okay, so I am paranoid now...
Half way on the way home from work yesterday in the old Pinto, I stopped off at a Shell station to fill the gas tank and got back on the road. It was about 53 out and the last several days were in the teens and 20's. About 3/10 of a mile after the gas stop, the car shuddered when going from 1st to 2nd. It felt unusual but I kept going. About another 3/10 of a mile, I was going from 3rd to 4th, another smaller shudder. (I shifted at around 2K - big engine load.)
After getting up to about 40 another 3/10 of a mile, the engine shuddered badly for about 3 seconds and I pushed the clutch in. Engine stumbled badly for 2 seconds and stalled. While coasting, it would not restart. I put my foot to the floor and tried to start it - it cranked but not fired. I coasted onto a side street & stopped - it would not start.
I got out and pulled the coil wire. When cranking, blue arcs flowed all around the coil - timing and ignition was fine.
I looked into the carb and opened the throttle - I could not see a squirt (kinda dark out) but vapor rose out of it.
I put the lid back on the air cleaner and it started up.
All the way home I drove it aggressively - WOT starts, high RPMs through the gears - it ran great. Idle was fine.
This happened once before 3 years ago when it was cold out, but no further issues ever arose from it.
Recon it was moisture in the gas tank? Maybe moisture from the tank sides was washed to the bottom with the new gas?
Sure, the coil, wires, and disty cap are all old, but I would not think any of them would cause a sudden random death....
Any ideas?
Time to drain and Pull tank, junk is clogging screen on tank pickup, But check fuel pump delivery to carb too!
Pintosopher
Thanks... Replacing the tank sending unit is on my agenda, so looks like these will both get done at the same time. I see that SCC enterprises sells pickup screens - costly but I will probably get one anyway. Time to see what the inside of the tank looks like!
How about the fuel filter? I have taken the filters off before and banged the end of them on a rock or something to get the junk out of them and then stick them back on. Lots of rust particles in the tank on all 3 of my pintos.
This spring when I change the valve seals, the motor will get a complete tuneup. I always thought if the fuel filter was getting clogged, WOT would be boggy. This old car screamed like a tortured banshee all the way up to 5K! :surprised:
However I will check the filter since the engine top will be apart.
I need to find a quality disty cap, too. Mine has the original one. :amazed:
I replaced it many years ago and it wore out in 6k miles. The original one went back on...
Check out Schucks/Oreilly's. They have a high quality Borg Warner cap with a lifetime warranty for $7.99, and a rotor to match for $6.99 I think, also lifetime warranty though!
Brass inserts to lessen corrosion too!
Well, it happened again today, 25 miles later, with exactly the same symptoms. This time it happened as I turned into my alleyway and I coasted to a stop behind my house! :surprised:
I cranked it for 7 seconds and pumped the gas about 12 times. I cranked it another 5 seconds - nothing.
I pushed the pedal to the floor and cranked it and it started normally.
No smoke or sputtering like it was flooded. Ran fine then.
Typically, one extra pedal pump would have it almost flooded.
So, it seems almost like fuel starvation. :lost:
Would a clogged gas tank vent line cause this?
Water in fuel? Would water pass through that fine fuel filter?
I will check it the next chance I get to see if there is crap in it.
Should I look on the suction side of the pump or the discharge?
I question the gas I got too - it was that Shell nitrogen-enriched stuff. I usually get gas at walmart andnever had an issue with it.
its possible that you have watter in your fuel , water could be getting in around the fill tube seat or at the float seal , you can try adding a couple cans of heet to your tank , that should take out any water that you may have. change your fuel filter , when you do cut the old one open and see if you have alot of garbage in it . i have both of my pintos double filtered , the one at the carb , naturally , but before that i have a clear one that you can see thru. if you had alot of junk get in you may have something floating in your float bowl. also take a fuel sample and see the condition of your fuel. if all that checks out i have seen the same symptoms you have described with a bad ignition coil , mine would run good for 20 miles then just die , afer a few minutes the car woud start and run. it is possible that your pickup coil is bad , or if you have a catalytic converter it may have become plugged, i have spent some time on the side of the road with a crowbar beating them from time to time.. hope this helps, Richard
Another update:
The next day on 1-23, the engine died again on the way home from work. This time it was on a long street with no turnoffs anywhere.
I was going about 50 when it shufddered and died, so with the key left on, I pumped the gas and held my foot to the floor. After a few seconds, the car let off a HUGE black backfire - much like a shotgun blast... Never seen a guy behind me change lanes so fast....
So, I know I am getting fuel. I cranked the heck out of it with no luck, and I finally found a left turn lane to pull into.
I popped the hood and yanked the HV coil wire - NO SPARK!
I fiddled with the two LV wires and I got spark again.
Engine started right up and I got home.
One note is that the warmer it is outside, the sooner it dies. It never died on the way TO work.
I changed the coil as I had a new spare on the shelf (had for 20 years...)
I will see how that does.
Could be the control module too or the magnetic pickup in the distributor. Had the same problems when my control module went out.
Could also be a bad connection somewhere.
Quote from: pintoguy76 on January 24, 2010, 09:30:09 PM
Could be the control module too or the magnetic pickup in the distributor. Had the same problems when my control module went out.
Well, it seems like you thinking the same as I am now.
Today was dramatic. I had replaced the coil a few days ago and yesterday's trip from work and back was uneventful.
Today was different. It was pretty cool out this morning (30's) and I had to go a different route to work, up on the horrible highway. I got all the way to the bad part of town (after about 20 minutes), and it died again. Pedal pumping did no good. I was able to coast into the parking lot to some old eirrie apartments. Pulled the coil wire off - no spark.
I fiddled with the wiring and connectors, no spark.
I waited and tried again and repeated. After 20 minutes I was ready just to start hiking, when I decided to give it one last try - SPARK!
The car ran good again and I HAULED butt to work. I wanted to have enough momentum to coast to a safe place should it die again and also before the car got too much warmer. I made it to work without further issues. Of course I still have to get home now, so i might schedule in a midway shopping trip.
My conclusion now is that it is a temperature based failure of either the ICM or the disty pickup. Which is more likely??
The warmer it is out, the soomer it dies (around 10 minutes). When colder, it dies after around 20 minutes. My usual trip to work is 20 minutes.
Not sure if its related to engine temp or ambient temp.
The ICM is more $$ but easy to replace. I will probably try it.
The Motorcract one is the most $$ but I heard the cheap ones are not much good... :read:
The epoxy potting has mostly melted out of mine and it is original. This is also a type of failure that electronic components give. :nocool:
Theres your answer! The melted epoxy is not good, a good sign that the ICM is bad.
Quote from: pintoguy76 on January 26, 2010, 12:58:19 PM
Theres your answer! The melted epoxy is not good, a good sign that the ICM is bad.
It started melting many years ago though!
I guess when it runs out of goo, the car runs out of go?? :hypno:
I am gonna hope I can get as far as the auto parts store to pick up a cheapy to get me home. If that seems to fix it, I will get a Motorcraft one from Rockauto for longevity.
I just hope it is not the disty pickup.........
Rockauto has the pickup as well ranging from $12 to $45.
That just means its been on its way out the door for years.... my 79 has the epoxy that has melted all over the inner fender. It still works but i'm expecting it to die, sometime totally unexpected and inconvenient. I don't have $50 for a new one right now.
Had the same problem with my 80 Pinto. It would shut off just like you turned the key off. I'd get out and bang on the carb next to the needle and seat and get back in the car and it would start right up. Some times it would die again in 5 miles or so, and I'd have to bang on it again. Got it home and changed the needle and seat and it never died again. When modukles go bad, most of the time they don't come back to life.
Well, today was a long nightmare.
After work I barely made it to the parts store and coasted up into the parking lot.
I bought and installed a new cheapie ignition module, but it still would not start. I tried to tear the distributor apart in the parking lot to change the pickup but could not get it apart. I finally gave up with it and almost could not get the reluctor seated all the way. I finally got it on and it started and I hauled butt to my mom's house. After a visit it restarted but died a mile later. It was warm out and the engine finally reached 180*. After an hour of trying, I gave up and walked back to her house. Engine had cooled to 130* then. I had dinner there and an hour later in the dark cold, we went to try once more - engine was about 80*. It started and I hauled back to her house, where it was left.
SO - it is an ignition problem dependent on engine temp. I have NO spark from the coil with the high voltage wire pulled. Typically, sparks jump right to the fender.
At 160 - 180* the ignition dies. When cooled to room temp or colder it runs. Waiting time gets longer the longer the engine runs. Heat soak to disty I am thinking.
Now could a worn timing belt or related aux gears cause an issue like this?
What else could it be??
My last suspect is the distributor, so i ordered one for 50 bucks from Rockauto. It looks like the pickup is there. I remember changing the disty long ago for a noise problem, but that was not the issue. So hopefully that is it.
If not, it might just be time for the car to go.....
Hi Rob. I probably don't know what I'm talking about but I'll give it a shot. If heat is the culprit, is something maybe expanding from the heat, causing a short? When the engine dies, is the choke open as it should be? When she stalls, does she falter first or is it sudden death? I would hate for you to give up on her, as she's been in your family for years and there's a lot of history with her. Old cars have personalities and quirks. I know it's very frustrating (I KNOW!!! lol.) but watch it be something simple and that will make you think, "Now why didn't I see that!?" Good luck Rob. I'm rootin' for you to beat this difficulty.
for your control module, run the car around the block a few times, turn it off at the house, then try turning it back on. if it refuses to go, take the module off and throw it in the freezer to let it cool down. then pull it back out about 5 minutes later and see what it does.
I have intermittent stall and no start on my 76 2.3. I think it is a short or bad connection somewhere. Check for power at the coil + wire when it has no spark. Maybe its the coil? Also need to check for power to the control module but i forget which wire it is. Maybe the ignition switch is bad and not making contact when IT gets warm?
I replaced the distributor in my 76 also when I had ignition problems, So that is possible too. Dont feel bad about replacing that module. I think it needed to be replaced anyways.
Blupinto - thanks for your moral support. After that day of finally getting stranded, I need it. I sure hat to get rid of it, too, but if it turns out to be a major engine problem, it may some to that.
The car would shudder a little before it died. When it died, there would be no spark so it has to be the ignition system.
Dave, both coil & ignition module were replaced and still same symptoms, but the problem is progressively getting worse.
Shorter running time and longer cooling off time before it would start again.
PG76, no loss on the $21 ignition module - I will keep it on and put the old nasty (possibly still good one) in the trunk for a spare along with tools to install it.
I am looking into the possibilities of the ignition switch, but I do not think that is it.
I wish I had some freeze-it spreay to spray the disty pickup, but I decided just to replace the whole disty anyway.
It should be here on Monday or Tuesday. For 50 bucks, it is my last shot. If that is not it, i will be totally lost.
This is the first bad failure I has with this car, so after 30 years, it was way over due.
I think of others who have similar issues on their 2, 5, and 10 year old jap crap and I feel lots better.
You are welcome Rob. I think most of us have been where you are. It's the charm of an old car. ::) Yes, someday we'll laugh about it but right now you pound her steering wheel screaaming, "why are you doing this to me!?" Wildfire was a piece of work. To get her going where she could take a 1 and a half hour trip it was a series of starts and stops- a process of elimination. Her problem turned out to be a faulty fuel pump. That was after replacing her spark plug wires, timing belt and hoses, cleaning out her gas tank, thermostat, alternator belt, battery, etc. I have a sneaking suspicion that all she needs now is to have her timing reset. If it's the ignition switch, how hard would that be to replace? Keep the faith. Don't give up on her just yet. If all else fails, do you have a trusted mechanic you could run this through? Maybe there's something we're all missing. Good luck. I'm pulling for you and Tramp.
Fuel pump?
I went through four fuel pumps in eight months a couple years ago. They were all re-manufactured pumps though.
I initially changed it out because it was leaking fuel from the weep hole (which fuel will leak out of if the diaphragm goes bad). After that, the next three pumps I replaced it with were faulty reman's. I finally got a good one on the fourth try and have been using the same one for about a year and a half now.
Oh, and I had similar symptoms. :P
I detest remanufactured stuff! It always fails on me! The funny thing with my '74 wasshe went downhill just fine, but would shudder, die, and not restart if she faced uphill. Sure enough, after she got a new (yes NEW!) fuel pump she was great! That adventure was a great example of eliminating the possible causes of her not running right and the resulting frustration as one more thing was eliminated with no change in the car's action. Like I said Rob, don't give up on the old girl. You've checked battery, alternator, and related stuff right?
Blupinto, I agree with you - most reman stuff is crap.
The disty that is in my car is just that. I replaced it long ago at 100K miles in troubleshooting a noise problem. It was not the disty but I figured I would leave the new one int here. It is now 53K miles later, so that reinforces the posibility that it is bad. I WISH I knew what I did withthe original disty!! That was 15 years ago though.
The new disty came in yesterday along with a bunch of other parts, so next week on Tuesday i will go to my mom's house and replace it. Wish me luck.
Rest of the electrical system is fine. However, i did put a lot of wear and tear on the original starter and 4 year old battery during those dead times.
Fuel pump is new - not reman. Also every water pump I get is new. I have never seen a new one go bad but the remans leak a few weeks after the warr goes out.
In all of 32 years, this has been the most frustrating time I had with this car - not too bad though.
You got it Rob!Fingers are crossed and JuJu is on the way! :D
Success!
Thanks for the hints given. It was the distributor (pickup in particular).
Everything went well on this operation - even easier than I had thought.
I first learned that these distys turn CW, and not CCW as stated in many other Ford sites.
After pulling the cap, I lined up the disty rotor to the #1 plug wire tower by bumping the starter and then turning the crank bolt (7/8") a little more to perfectly line up the #1 reluctor tooth right in the middle of the pickup. I marked the reluctor tooth, the #1 tower location, the base of the disty at the casting mold mark and lastly the block itself. I made darn SURE I took the ratchet out of the crank bolt... :surprised:
I pulled the clamp bolt (11/16", under the PVC crankcase hose), removed disty clamp and slowly pulled out the old disty with very slight short twists, watching where the reluctor turned when the gears unmeshed. It went CW a hair over 1/2 a tooth.
I pulled it out straight the rest of the way and moved it to the edge of the block (without tilting) and removed it.
Naturally one would want to tilt it away from the block, BUT, if the oil pump shaft was in the disty, it could have easily fallen into the block.
I attached a picture of the disty hole; the "no-zone" obviously near the drive gear. The other side is just a puddle of oil.
(http://www.fordpinto.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14363.0;attach=24252;image)
The engine teardown section in the manual :read: had a good picture of the oil pump shaft and retainer. The retainer is nothing more than a C-clip that is near the middle of the ~3" long shaft and fits between the oil pump and the block, keeping the shaft in place when the disty is pulled. If the engine has not been torn down before, then the clip ~should~ be there.
I marked the new disty just like the old one, noting #1 firing position, and smeared engine oil on the disty O-ring.
Getting it back in CORRECTLY was the hardest part. It does not just drop in - it is more of a drop in, engage gear, twist body, push down some (straight), twist more, cuss a bit, engage the gear push and twist more, and cuss a lot because now it is seated but half a reluctor tooth advanced! :nocool:
Okay, gently twist it out and try again. Repeat the above, with even more pushing twisting and lots more cussing, because now it is finally home and it is half a reluctor tooth retarded! :mad:
Third time is a charm, right? Well, after repeating most of the above, it went in, aligned just a hair off and that could be easily adjusted out. :lol: I think getting the oil pump shaft to align was most of the problem.
I installed the clamp, vac hoses, rotor, cap (with wires falling off and rust falling out!) and air cleaner. A complete tune-up will be done this spring.
Moment of truth - engine fired right up and ran smooth! :hypno: :hypno: After 10 minutes of warm up, I got out the timing light and set to 6*BTDC with vac advance disconnected and plugged. I was about 4* off - not bad. With the timing light, I bumped the throttle and verified centrifugal advance was working.
After setting timing, idle speed and mixture, engine ran great - even smoother than before. :amazed: Disty bolt was tightened and everything reassembled and connected.
Car ran great at idle, around the neighborhood for 10 minutes, and even for the 20 minute drive home. I think she is fixed now! ;D ;D
I confirmed the main source of problem was the pickup coil failing when heated up. I somewhat verified this by taking AC voltage measurements when cold, and slowly heated it by pouring hot water on the pickup coil. Voltage was way less when hot.
Although I could have replaced just the pickup coil, a reman disty was the same price as the pickup. Also, the disty shaft was loosey-goosey - at least 0.015" side-side slop when cold. I think it is was a reman unit installed 53K miles ago. The original lasted over 100K and was replaced out of preventive maintanence. It was due and should last another 50K or so!
:fastcar:
Congrats Rob, so glad to hear it worked out!! :laugh:
Chris
Woo! Glad to hear she's running again! :D
By now the fix is feeling pretty promising. I am still a bit paranoid though, especially at stop lights.
She ran all that time from my mom's house to mine, and today from work and back with a long idling time at the state inspection place. I had to do a little carb tweak, but that was it.
I had to replace the 31 year old license plate light, but I caught that before I got there. I know the guy there and he probably would have let it go anyway with just a verbal warning..... He loves old cars and looks forwards to seeing mine...