First off, let me assure you i do NOT want to put a 460 in my Pinto, ever. I DO however want to someday stuff a Ford 4.6DOHC mod motor and T-45 in there. These engines are actually wider than 460's and other big blocks, about the same width as a 426 hemi. Has anyone ever seen a 4.6 mod pinto?
What is involved in swapping a 460 into a pinto? Is it a full-custom full fabrication, hack and weld everything type deal? or can it be fairly stock and streetable? There ARE a few 460 pintos out there, but i've never seen one up close. If a 460 fits okay, then maybe just maybe a 4.6 would too...???
That would be my dream-pinto, and a dream car actually, no less than my finished T/A Challenger. A 4.6 Cobra motored 5 or 6 spd pinto. That would be hot. Any ideas?
I have never seen one in person eather, but mu understanding is the iner fenders ar complealy removerd ant the fire wall is modified as well as the radiator support(this is commin with all v8 swaps) so i guess it Is " a full-custom full fabrication, hack and weld everything type deal"
phils toys
There is a guy named Dan that attends the Knott's car show each year in Southern California. He has a beautiful 460 V8 Pinto; very clean installation. I don't know his PCCA name but hopefully he will see this post and respond. Joe in Morgan Hill, CA. The Ford 4.6 swap sounds very interesting.
460 in a Pinto???...thats gootta be a rocket...lol
As an adder to my post on Dan's 460 V8 Pinto; his PCCA name is Dan- go figure?? I would send him a PM. Good luck- Joe in Morgan Hill, CA
Man, the more i drive my girl's 96 GT, with its brand new Dr. Gas offroad-X/Spintech exhaust (which sounds absolutely glorious by the way) the more i think about this swap. If the 4V mod was as easy an install as the 5.0L i'd already be halfway through it...
This is quickly becoming my dream project...
:fastcar:So the 4-cyl isn't good enough. You need to put in another 4-cyl. Well I'll tell bigger isn't always best.
The 460 isn't impossible but a lot of work to look normal in there. First the firewall was moved 7" back the rebuilt and a new tunnel, remember the car relies on that firewall for strength. next the crossmember could go lower, the reattach the rack.
the engine mounts are LTD 429 style. then make mounts to weld to frame. the engine oil pan is ford truck 4-wd. the trans i used is large size C-4 model with 351M bellhousing. The headers match 24" width of the framerails so you go over and out the fenders, the down to outside the frame. the brake master is hot rod style on floor. springs are mustang II with 1 coil removed then stuffed in there. the carb almost hits the cowl. It's a blast to drive. Lots of crazy looks at car shows. Since the 4.6 is wider and exhaust goes real low, that will be the trouble. But why not try, good luck and show pictures of my car if i can figure that out. See ya Dan.
Quote from: Dan on July 18, 2009, 11:36:51 PM
:fastcar:So the 4-cyl isn't good enough. You need to put in another 4-cyl. Well I'll tell bigger isn't always best.
The 460 isn't impossible but a lot of work to look normal in there. First the firewall was moved 7" back the rebuilt and a new tunnel, remember the car relies on that firewall for strength. next the crossmember could go lower, the reattach the rack.
the engine mounts are LTD 429 style. then make mounts to weld to frame. the engine oil pan is ford truck 4-wd. the trans i used is large size C-4 model with 351M bellhousing. The headers match 24" width of the framerails so you go over and out the fenders, the down to outside the frame. the brake master is hot rod style on floor. springs are mustang II with 1 coil removed then stuffed in there. the carb almost hits the cowl. It's a blast to drive. Lots of crazy looks at car shows. Since the 4.6 is wider and exhaust goes real low, that will be the trouble. But why not try, good luck and show pictures of my car if i can figure that out. See ya Dan.
Hah! Crazy stuff.
A couple ov key differences might make the 4.6 a bit easier... Its got to be a shorter engine for one, the 460 has a good deck height, like the Mopar 440, tall, the 4.6 is really only wide and only 'cause ov the heads. Maybe the thing will sit as low as a 5.0L unless heads/exhaust get in the way? And secondly, its not a long engine. That 460, with its massive bore is a long one. The 4.6 is only a 281cid engine, and it doesn't have a lot going in ahead ov the heads, no long water pumps, etc. Just a shallow serpentine system. Again, this might help with the firewall. Last time i looked at it the firewall WAS in the way ov a clean DOHC 4.6 install, but i bet i could get away with less than 7"... thats kinda drastic.
Also, they did kinda design the new 4.6 to fit where the 5.0L was, so maybe those pipes will still fit in between the frame rails? Again, the 4.6 is gonna be narrower than the big 460 (with its big crank) at the pan, so maybe those pipes could be sucked tight to the plant and out under the chassis? I dont know, never been under my Pinto yet.
Hey... maybe Hooker makes a 4.6DOHC/Pinto swap header...??.? Haha
Really, the 4.6 is not long, tall, or heavy (about as heavy as a 5.0L with aluminum heads actually!)... its just WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE... So maybe it would come down to shock towers and exhaust routing...?.?? I'm betting the steering is gonna be in the way too. I should head up to the wrecker and get some measurements from that 76 Pinto they got sitting there with no engine. Heh heh... maybe i could convince the guy to drop one ov his 'kickin' around' 4.6's in the hole to see what hits...
Dan, thanks for the input. I'd love to see pictures.
Okay, i've had LOTS ov cool cars with lots ov cool exhaust systems, but i cant get enough ov this damn GT. I'm gonna get into trouble here, i cant go to the corner store without hitting 4000+ at least twice. And this is the early 4.62V... the worst 4.6 ever built.
I wanna put a 4V mod into my Challenger. I wanna buy my 70 Imperial and put a 4V mod in IT too. I think the hearse might be a tad heavy though...
I AM going to find a way to 'professionally' swap a 4.6DOHC into my Pinto. It has absolutely GOT to happen. I dont know how... i dont know when... but i need a '76/'71 Pinto with a 96-99 Cobra powertrain...
Just thinking as well... i wonder what would happen if you took a 3600lb Cobra and hacked 1200-1300lbs out ov it..?.?? They run high 13's and get close to 30mpg highway at 3600lbs...
thisis a cool idea. I would reccommend that you start with a later model Pinto because will be starting out with more engine bay size. Also there are a lot of aftermarket parts for the suspension since it is the same as MustangII.
But i agree with everyone else, DO IT! just start a project thread and send plenty of pictures.....
Quote from: hellfirejim on July 24, 2009, 06:35:20 AM
thisis a cool idea. I would reccommend that you start with a later model Pinto because will be starting out with more engine bay size. Also there are a lot of aftermarket parts for the suspension since it is the same as MustangII.
But i agree with everyone else, DO IT! just start a project thread and send plenty of pictures.....
Mine is a 76, so i'm already there. Not sure i'll be tackling this mess ov a project anytime soon however... I dont even have a shop or good tools right now.
for what it is worth i don't have a garage and only hand tools but you find a way. don't let that hold you back. if you want it bad enough then go for it..
Pale:
Good luck on your project. You'll find a lot of folks here that don't have "proper restoration facilities" like Jim and myself, but we both thrust forward and do what we can. I am getting as much done as I can in my driveway, then I will probably rent some space or otherwise. best wishes!
Chris
Yeah well, i'm done with that aggravation. I've been there... for years. Twenty years. It got very VERY old. It was when i started fixing things... ANYTHING that went wrong really, with the Dodge... with an axe, that i decided i should quit trying to build shite in my driveway. On top ov all that, i live in vandalism and crackhead central, so anything left out or 'in progress' is likely to be trashed or ripped off. To say nothing ov the fact i live in a rainforest. ..
Right now i dont even have a driveway to work in. Four car spaces are taken up by four rather big cars, plus another at the girlfriends house. The Pinto has been parked on the lawn for three years. My shop is so full ov Mopar crap (that i'm trying to sell) that i can barely make it to the door. My tools all fit in a bucket that comes with me everywhere i go (because you know, i drive a Mopar... haha).
Right now i'm trying to negotiate a deal with someone who's life DOESN'T zoop to sell me and install a T5 in the Pinto for a big block and tranny i'm selling. He's still balking and i really cant blame him. That might be my project's salvation... swapping parts for work. Now that everyone is broke, it might just be the ticket.
Heh heh... i can get the Pinto running and commuting all cool this way, but i dont own enough parts to trade for a full Cobra drivetrain swap...
How far you driveing it ,,,like around the front yard the gas will cost you more than the pinto`s worth ....
What you should do is just buy mine when it's done. Seriously I have another DOHC engine, basically the complete drivetrain, out of a 96 Cobra I just bought. Seems no one has the money to buy it. So I have this whole drive train and my 74 Pinto and Im thinking about swapping it in the Pinto and then selling it. I've already got a 98 Cobra engine in my 71 Maverick so I know how to do it. Im just debating about what to do....
Do it and be a first! 8)
Might as well I've got everything to do it! I could just use the 8in 5-lug rear out of my Mav since it's getting the 8.8. Only thing would be a radiator, exhaust, and update the front suspension. I'd have to get tires and 2 more Cobra R wheels. What to do what to do. I really wanted to do a tubro 2.3 setup which I bought a couple months ago so what would I do with that? lol
How about some pics of the Maverick? :fastcar:
Quote from: 71pintoracer on September 04, 2009, 09:34:24 PM
How about some pics of the Maverick? :fastcar:
I'll post a link over to the Maverick site soon as I get a few more pics uploaded. Just took the Cobra engine last night to finish fabbing up the engine and trans mounts.
Sorry to the original poster didnt mean to highjack your thread. ;D. I did do some measuring last night and just some info for anyone thinking about this. To put a DOHC 4.6 in a Pinto is going to be a major undertaking. The engine at the widest part is 29" wide! Also since the pans are rear sump you would have to set the engine about 4-6" back into the firewall, I would do this anyway because I wouldn't want that much weight sitting on and forward of the front tires. The exhuast manifolds will be another issue. Using Cobra manifolds would probably be out of the question because they turn out, Mercury Marauder manifolds would be the best bet since the go straight back and turn down and not out to the side. Also the frame rails are narrower in a Pinto about 25" apart where-as a Maverick is 26 1/2" That makes a big difference with the exhaust manifolds. Also some triming of the stock crossmember would probably be needed as well. A cowl or custom hood would be needed, the engine from the shortest part of the pan in the front to the top of the intake manifold is 26". Overall length without the coils poking out in the front is about 24". So your going to need a mig welder and some good fab skills to get this done. I may try this after I get the Maverick done. Can't start it right now until the Maverick is done.
Quote from: PintoMaverick on September 05, 2009, 07:41:26 AM
I'll post a link over to the Maverick site soon as I get a few more pics uploaded. Just took the Cobra engine last night to finish fabbing up the engine and trans mounts.
Sorry to the original poster didnt mean to highjack your thread. ;D. I did do some measuring last night and just some info for anyone thinking about this. To put a DOHC 4.6 in a Pinto is going to be a major undertaking. The engine at the widest part is 29" wide! Also since the pans are rear sump you would have to set the engine about 4-6" back into the firewall, I would do this anyway because I wouldn't want that much weight sitting on and forward of the front tires. The exhuast manifolds will be another issue. Using Cobra manifolds would probably be out of the question because they turn out, Mercury Marauder manifolds would be the best bet since the go straight back and turn down and not out to the side. Also the frame rails are narrower in a Pinto about 25" apart where-as a Maverick is 26 1/2" That makes a big difference with the exhaust manifolds. Also some triming of the stock crossmember would probably be needed as well. A cowl or custom hood would be needed, the engine from the shortest part of the pan in the front to the top of the intake manifold is 26". Overall length without the coils poking out in the front is about 24". So your going to need a mig welder and some good fab skills to get this done. I may try this after I get the Maverick done. Can't start it right now until the Maverick is done.
Yeah, i've done the measurements too... if i can still even think about it after that, then i must be crazy. And yup... still thinking about it!
One thing i didn't know the specs on was the oil pan. If thats the case i'd try and find a different pan, from one ov the other many 4.6 variants. There is NO WAY i'd set the engine back that far... the problems it would create would FAR outstrip the one it solves. There are many different pans to choose from. The engine set-back IS a killer performance mod, getting the weight closer to the middle ov the car is always a good thing, but keep in mind in this particular case it is not needed. The all aluminum 4.6 Cobra engine apparently weighs only a little more than the strangely (ridiculously) heavy little 2.3L. A 96-2001 Cobra engine is about 425lbs give or take.
But yes... it is WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE... Wider than a 460. But it is also short (length) and not very tall. A small hoodscoop would necessitate a FG hood, which is another nice weight savings.
The manifolds is another issue i dont see a big problem with. Half the draw with a DOHC mod is THE SOUND... so there no way i'd go through all that trouble and not use some nice custom headers with tuned length primaries, possibly a tri-Y set-up, and tuned merge-collectors. I build exhaust, so this is not an issue. The routing might be an issue, narrow frame and all... but i've since seen pictures ov a neat idea; pointing the manifolds/headers forward... and running the pipes under the K-member. If nothing else works (which i'm hoping is not the case) that is always an option. Someone here has done it with a 302. Still, i like the idea ov a very short exhaust, so i'd do my best to make the rearward headers work first.
I have a welder and a very good guy to do it for me. Really, the scariest part is trying to make the electronics work, that sounds like a nightmare. Distributors and carbs are NOT an option for this build... thats the type ov shite i'm trying to get away from. But the electronics is something i would definitely have to pay someone else to do. That and trying to stuff that big engine inside that tiny engine compartment.
There is a engineless 4spd pinto ov the same year as mine at the local yard, and finding a broken Lincoln Mark VIII with a DOHC 4.6 for a few bucks shouldn't be hard. So i might get the two entities together and see what fits and what doesn't one ov these days. My pinto already has the 8".
Quote from: Pale Roader on September 10, 2009, 07:36:12 AM
Yeah, i've done the measurements too... if i can still even think about it after that, then i must be crazy. And yup... still thinking about it!
One thing i didn't know the specs on was the oil pan. If thats the case i'd try and find a different pan, from one ov the other many 4.6 variants. There is NO WAY i'd set the engine back that far... the problems it would create would FAR outstrip the one it solves. There are many different pans to choose from. The engine set-back IS a killer performance mod, getting the weight closer to the middle ov the car is always a good thing, but keep in mind in this particular case it is not needed. The all aluminum 4.6 Cobra engine apparently weighs only a little more than the strangely (ridiculously) heavy little 2.3L. A 96-2001 Cobra engine is about 425lbs give or take.
But yes... it is WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE... Wider than a 460. But it is also short (length) and not very tall. A small hoodscoop would necessitate a FG hood, which is another nice weight savings.
The manifolds is another issue i dont see a big problem with. Half the draw with a DOHC mod is THE SOUND... so there no way i'd go through all that trouble and not use some nice custom headers with tuned length primaries, possibly a tri-Y set-up, and tuned merge-collectors. I build exhaust, so this is not an issue. The routing might be an issue, narrow frame and all... but i've since seen pictures ov a neat idea; pointing the manifolds/headers forward... and running the pipes under the K-member. If nothing else works (which i'm hoping is not the case) that is always an option. Someone here has done it with a 302. Still, i like the idea ov a very short exhaust, so i'd do my best to make the rearward headers work first.
I have a welder and a very good guy to do it for me. Really, the scariest part is trying to make the electronics work, that sounds like a nightmare. Distributors and carbs are NOT an option for this build... thats the type ov shite i'm trying to get away from. But the electronics is something i would definitely have to pay someone else to do. That and trying to stuff that big engine inside that tiny engine compartment.
There is a engineless 4spd pinto ov the same year as mine at the local yard, and finding a broken Lincoln Mark VIII with a DOHC 4.6 for a few bucks shouldn't be hard. So i might get the two entities together and see what fits and what doesn't one ov these days. My pinto already has the 8".
Granted these engine's are not that heavy. It's mainly the shear size of the things. They are tall trust me on that! Which does put the center of gravity a little higher than a normal engine setup. A batwing style pan might be the best bet those are from a Mark VIII I believe, and they kick out on the sides. You can flip the manifolds around so the exit to the front, but keep in mind you wont be able to use a P/S or A/C compressor if you were thinking about that, I think it will hit. A set of custom headers would probably be needed. I would set the engine that far back. Even those this is a short wheel based vehicle their is more weight hanging over and past the front wheels than the rear.
The electronics are not that hard. You will need the PCM, PCM harness, and engine harness. Good thing about this stuff is that you really cant screw-up plugging stuff in because all the connectors are specific to where they are going. I wouldn't use a Mark VIII PCM, there are several guys having alot of trouble getting there engines to run and various other problems. You can use a SOHC 4.6 Mustang GT PCM. They just have to be tuned. The computer doesnt know wether the engine has 2 or 4 valves. You can also have the PATS, EGR, O2 sensors all removed from the PCM which is what IM going to do. In my Maverick IM running the full harness front to rear from a Cobra. But Im using the gauge cluster, A/C, sound system, fuel system etc. If I do this to the Pinto I won't run the A/C comp, or P/S, and I would only use the bare necessities to run the engine. If you need any help let me know, I'm eyeball deep in this stuff right now.
If your really thinking about this the BIGGEST suggestion I can make here is to tell you to find a COMPLETE donor car! Perferably a wrecked Cobra. I can't stress that enough. I didn't do that the first time and ended up needing alot of hard to find little things, that will hold you up and piss you off. These things will nickle and dime you to death as well.
Please keep us uptodate on this. I find it very interesting especially when you combine it with Grumpy's 8.8 independent rear.
Quote from: PintoMaverick on September 10, 2009, 10:51:33 AM
Granted these engine's are not that heavy. It's mainly the shear size of the things. They are tall trust me on that! Which does put the center of gravity a little higher than a normal engine setup. A batwing style pan might be the best bet those are from a Mark VIII I believe, and they kick out on the sides. You can flip the manifolds around so the exit to the front, but keep in mind you wont be able to use a P/S or A/C compressor if you were thinking about that, I think it will hit. A set of custom headers would probably be needed. I would set the engine that far back. Even those this is a short wheel based vehicle their is more weight hanging over and past the front wheels than the rear.
My car doesn't have a single power or luxury option, and its staying that way. Among other pluses, it makes swaps much easier. Custom headers are a must for me, even if the manifolds fit right in. Its gotta SOUND amazing...
I would love to have a 4.6 in there set back that far... but now we're talking a whole new firewall, tunnel or transmission mods, brake mods, possible steering mods, and a thousand other things i wouldn't otherwise have to mess with. We're almost looking at a full custom race car at that point. Bloody fast? yes. But i dont have the patience, tools or space to attack that.
QuoteThe electronics are not that hard. You will need the PCM, PCM harness, and engine harness. Good thing about this stuff is that you really cant screw-up plugging stuff in because all the connectors are specific to where they are going. I wouldn't use a Mark VIII PCM, there are several guys having alot of trouble getting there engines to run and various other problems. You can use a SOHC 4.6 Mustang GT PCM. They just have to be tuned. The computer doesnt know wether the engine has 2 or 4 valves.
Actually, if you use the 96-up GT harness/computer apparently they dont even have to be tuned. The computer figures it out after a short time. There are several guys who've swapped 5.4DOHC's into GT's and didn't have to touch a thing, electronically.
QuoteYou can also have the PATS, EGR, O2 sensors all removed from the PCM which is what IM going to do. In my Maverick IM running the full harness front to rear from a Cobra. But Im using the gauge cluster, A/C, sound system, fuel system etc. If I do this to the Pinto I won't run the A/C comp, or P/S, and I would only use the bare necessities to run the engine. If you need any help let me know, I'm eyeball deep in this stuff right now.
Hah! i might just take you up on that. I've been itching to jam a DOHC mod into this old Dodge hotrod i have. Space... is NOT an issue. The electronics ARE.
QuoteIf your really thinking about this the BIGGEST suggestion I can make here is to tell you to find a COMPLETE donor car! Perferably a wrecked Cobra. I can't stress that enough. I didn't do that the first time and ended up needing alot of hard to find little things, that will hold you up and piss you off. These things will nickle and dime you to death as well.
Thats always the best way to go. Too bad Cobras are worth too much here. If i lived in the States i could pick up a donor for half the cost. I might look into a GT instead, has all the wiring and some other parts depending on how its optioned, but the Cobra would give me bigger brakes to play with, and possibly better trans and diff. Its all in the planning stages right now (talking about the hotrod, the 4.6 Pinto is but a dream), dumping a 440 in there would still be SOOOOOO much easier. Too bad i'd have to listen to it, get 7mpg and put oil in it every third day...
Quote from: PintoMaverick on September 10, 2009, 10:51:33 AM
You can also have the PATS, EGR, O2 sensors all removed from the PCM which is what IM going to do.
you cant get rid of the front 2 o2s. they are a big factor in making efi work correctly. although the rear 2 can be deleted.
bob
Well mine might have to wait or never be. I really need a truck so Im thinking of trading my Pinto for an older Ford truck. We'll see I guess.
But yes... it is WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE... Wider than a 460. But it is also short (length) and not very tall. A small hoodscoop would necessitate a FG hood, which is another nice weight savings.
http://www.southernperformancesystems.com/a-dim-cobrasc.html (http://www.southernperformancesystems.com/a-dim-cobrasc.html)
Damn, SRT... thats one helluva helpful link. With enough measurin' in the Pinto (or my Dodge), that would pretty much tell me everything i need to know. Too bad it isn't an NA 4.6, but i'll just subtract a couple inches for the blower. Good stuff!
here's a thought......... ;) ;D :hypno: :tgif:
http://image.hotrod.com/f/9031814/hrdp_0706_12_z+10_historic_hot_rod_engines+flathead_ford.jpg (http://image.hotrod.com/f/9031814/hrdp_0706_12_z+10_historic_hot_rod_engines+flathead_ford.jpg)