Hi all:
Not sure this is the right part of the forum to ask, but I will. How many of you guys are running the stock 2.3 motor with special equipment for horsepower gains (modified heads, exhaust, intake, carbueration, etc)? I am NOT going to race my car ('76 wagon), but I would really like to add reasonable HP gains normally aspirated rather than going the V8 or turbo route. 88 stock HP just doesn't cut it. If I could DOUBLE my HP at a minimum, I'd be happier.
Any suggestions for getting there? Where would one start? I know the heads on the stock motors flow poorly....thanks for the inputs.
Chris
Chris,
Are you concerned about Smog check legality? In CA that pre- 1976 classic car exemption is key to your decision. If you can put up with the grief, just swapping intake systems, and Exhaust ( headers) can give you a option if you can't pass visual equipment inspection every other year. But if these "cash for clunker" laws keep coming it will be smogged every year.
I used to swap my complete intake on my stock 2.0L every other year just for the test. Then switch back after the test. (Later, I did the complete engine swap- got it down to 3 hours per change :surprised:)
If you put a better intake manifold with a bigger carb, and header you'll be well over 120HP with a good exhaust. It will get a wagon moving pretty good.
It's all about beating the system..
Pintosopher
Pintosopher:
I am in Texas, so I am exempt - for now. Smog laws only cover cars that are 25 years old or newer, so I safely make "the cut". Again - "for now".
Chris
Dang - you used to do a whole engine swap to keep it legal? Man, that's VERY ambitious - and impressive!
Read my post in the projects section about cam timing. Cheap and easy to do. My wife's 2.0 automatic went from slow and sluggish take off to barking the tires take off.
It really comes down to how much modifying you want to do and how much money you want to spend. There are "stock" upgrades you can do, and as pintosopher said, there are lots of go-fast goodies available.
What do you mean by "stock" upgrades? I probably sound very "green" asking, but there's quite a bit I don't know - especially once you get INSIDE the motor. I had a '79 wagon back in the early 80's, and again (same car) in the early 90's - the only mods I did to it were better tires, exhaust header, supertrapp muffler, and bigger carb.
Chris
Chris,
The term "stock upgrade" implies that the Engine internals are not modified, only the Peripherals are "changed" for improved performance. A Stock Pinto 2.3L intake manifold flows terribly, so it's the first thing to change,along with improved carburetion. How far you can go depends on your wallet ,and your tolerance for complexity.
Adding a Set of properly sized side or downdraft Weber carburetors will wake up the Fuel side of the equation. It won't totally kill your mileage if you can keep your foot out of it ( Hard to do! Love that aural symphony of 4 stacks at 5K + RPM) But these are complex and require patience and a bit of education to get them right and keep them tuned in balance. Costly to obtain, and can try your sanity if you don't learn the "drill".
Back track to what you did with your 79 and you'll be reasonably satisfied with the results.
Beyond this and you'll need to swap heads and cams on to the Ultimate Esslinger heads , BIG $$$$
Pintosopher
Oh and Yes Chris..
Back then the minimum charge for the KD Hoist was 4 hours and I didn't want to pay the daily rental charge. It's all about laying out the pieces in advance and having the right place to do it.
In case you hadn't noticed, I tend to be a "focused" individual :hypno:
And I despise governmental interference in my fun :mad:
Now where's that Horse tranq...
Pintosopher
Keep up the good inputs, Pintosopher, you are a gentleman and a scholar.
Big $$$$ don't scare me - because I don't have them. "Honey, I'm gonna spend $2000 on a Pinto head, OK"?
THWACK...... :nocool:
Chris
And the horse said..
Ehhhsssslinnger Ehhsslinnger, Wwalshh Waalllshh, Neighh Neighh Snort! :o
Out to pasture,
Pintosopher
Years ago I raced on dirt in a "stock class" which ment no aftermarket performance parts. I did my homework and assembled the best factory parts and went on to win a pile of races and track championships. Here are a few things I did:
1. Milled the head. Higher compression = horsepower. At that time I milled it .125" Just remember, higher compression means you need better fuel. For a street driven car on pump gas you need to be careful here. On this engine the c/r was 12:1 and ran on 108 octane racing fuel. On my 2.0 street engine the head was milled .060" and ran fine on high test.
2. Adjustable cam pulley. I used a multi-index type pulley that looked stock enough to pass tech. If you mill the head, you MUST reset the cam timing. Even if you dont, the cam timing may be retarded, and advancing it as little as 2 degrees past TDC will improve low end power.(BTW, while looking for a shifter for Carolina Boy I found the pulley and may consider parting with it)
3. Stock, FoMoCo TURBO cam. Had the factory markings to pass tech but has much better duration. Also used anti pump-up lifters.(High performance but look just like stock) Turned 7000 RPM.
3.Stock cast exhaust manifold from a '80's Mustang.(85 or 86, may be on other years as well) Looks like a shorty header but it is CAST, do not use the Ranger tube header, they don't flow.
4. Oval port head (which might already be what is on your car, can't remember the years for the different styles of heads) with a "D" port intake. Sounds screwy but they flow better in stock form because of the "waterfall effect" of the fuel dropping off of the flat bottom of the d-port.
5. Work on the carb. I used an early model carb because the later models had a smaller barrel on one side. I honed out the bores and used a dremel to clean up all of the casting flash and then bead blasted it to smooth it up. I even went as far as to cut the screws off that held the butterflies to the shaft because they stuck out into the airflow path. I really had to go up on the jet sizes because of the increased flow. I drilled my own because we were not allowed to change them to the holley jets. Stock, remember? ;D Of course, the easiest thing to do in your case is to use a Holley 350, but the other way is cheaper!
6. Try running your timing at 36 degrees total advance. With the improved breathing and fuel delivery you can crank up the timing.
Alright, now you are giving me some MEAT, many thanks for those inputs. I am going to "study up" on this stuff......!
Chris
CarlHarris (here on the forums), the one I met the other day while picking up some craigslist parts, has a modified 2.3 in his 76 Sedan.
He has a modified head involving the springs (NOS small block 289), cam (maybe the rods too), headman tube header, carburetor, and all the emissions stuff removed.
Sometimes I wish I lived in Nampa just to take emissions off mine, but there is no telling how long that will last out there, since that little city is growing fast.
He has a modified head involving the springs (NOS small block 289)
[/quote]
oops, forgot about the springs, you need good ones to turn 7000+ ;D
Chris,
I had no Idea that you weren't Vegan ;). Meat! Well, I have seen an article in an Old Hot Rod Magazine that used to be posted on this site ( Scott had to park the page until a future date) it had a bunch of 2.3L Liter advice and performance stuff with dyno results.
Since you're not into a spec class of racing, it's all about Tinkering or just getting a set of goals. Why reivent the wheel?
Induction it cried , give me induction or give me death! :rolleye:
Pintosopher
Was that the article where they had the "three levels" of cars that the aftermarket equipment was added to? It was like -Stage I, II, III? I did read that - again, just trying to get as much carne as possible.
Make mine medium rare..... ;)
Chris
Question On timing. How much initial and how much total?
Different distributors will give different advance curves. My 2.0 seemed to run best at 36 degrees total, I was using a Mallory Unilite that gave 24 degrees of advance so initial (base) timing was 12 degrees.
It also has a lot to do with fuel quality and compression ratio, (and in your case Jim, boost). I ran high test and my head was milled .060". I have run as much as 40 degrees on long rod race engines. (108 octane racing fuel)
You can also use the old time tuner method; start at 36, use the grade of fuel you intend to run all the time, drive up a long hill that will put a load on the engine and listen for "pinging" (spark knock) at WOT. If you hear it, lower the timing by 2 degrees and try again until it goes away. :)
So basically what you are saying is to check the total and work backwards from there. For example if my total was 32 and i checked my initial and it was 8 then I need to push my inital up to 12 so i would end up with 36 total.
Hi guys:
Hoping "71PintoRacer" will chime in here after giving me some highlights on what to do. I have located a 1984 2.3L motor/tranny out of a Mustang for $150. The guy describes the motor as such:
"block casting # is E5010015 4A which indicates it is a 1985 motor. this is the one with the D port head. supposed to be the good head. exhaust manifold # is E47E 9430 indicates it is an 84. it is cracked, but you will want to use a ford ranger header"
Now, for clarification, 71Pintoracer said NOT to use the Ford ranger header, so I would have to find another exhaust manifold (or get this one repaired). Also, he says it is a D-port head, but it was suggested that I get an oval port head.
Comments, please. I would like to know if this would be a good base for building a better motor.
Chris
I think I understand why he said not to use the ranger header as at the attachment point it reduces down to 1.75". I saw that and what I did was cut of the ball at the flange and low and behold I had a 2.5" collector. I made up a flange to fit and went to napa to get a gasket and now I have a 2.5" exhaust system. I am sure there are better headers out there for the Pinto but for the money and i had the header i will stick with this one.
jim
Once again, it all depends on one thing: stock or modified. The D-port head is the head of choice if you are going to port and polish and use an aftermarket cam, intake and headers. The oval port with the D-port intake flow better in stock form.
As far as the Ranger header, the tubes are small and they have kinks in them. Good idea Jim about cutting the end off to open up that part.
There is a great 4cyl site called 4m.net, loads of go fast info from mainly round track racers. I was a member back when I raced,I learned a lot from there.
Thanks much for the response. It's a tough choice - stock or modified - I suppose it really depends on the coin involved. Do you think $150 for that 2.3 core is reasonable?
Chris
Quote from: hellfirejim on March 27, 2009, 12:29:52 PM
So basically what you are saying is to check the total and work backwards from there. For example if my total was 32 and i checked my initial and it was 8 then I need to push my inital up to 12 so i would end up with 36 total.
I always set the total to what I want and don't worry about what the base timing is, other than just for a reference point. But yes,it works out the same either way. 8)