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Nothin wrong with V8s in pintos,..
Lack of planning and failure to understand the scope of a project is what usualy kills cars.
When I was about 18 I saw a 64 GTO stripped down to bare metal and rusting in a junk yard.
hey pintony want be to check on this one too? sac area about 1.5 hrs away. i wonder how much of the firewall got cut? and is it too far gone to put a 4 back in? chris in ca.
My background is in Mopars and slant sixes. It always made me sad to see a beautiful slant six car get hacked up by some idiot swapping in a v-8. More cars get trashed that way than any other...
I think that if you put some effort into a well planed V8 pinto they come out great. I have done one car and it worked out well. If the car is allready pretty much beat and you have the parts why not?
How exciting it would be going to the Knottsberry car show and seeing 39 bone stock Pintos all lined up. Ho Hum. This hobby has room for all Pintos including the likes of the Disco Pinto. My V8 Pinto is fun and draws incredible amounts of attention at car shows that I attend. This is bad for PCCA.??? Joe in Morgan Hill- proud owner of a V8 Pinto.
Yes, Joe's Pinto is Pretty Nice................... ;D
Sure, but swapping to a larger motor correctly involves quite a bit of work. upgrading suspension, cooling, brakes, rerouting wiring, fuel line, exhaust etc... It is far more work than the average car fan realizes. Done right, a v-8 swap is fine. I have done it myself. However, most people either don't do it right and end up with a hacked together car, or lose interest 1/3 or halfway through when they realize what a daunting task it is. When I swapped from a 6 to an 8, i had two car sitting side by side and swapped all necessary parts. What make me sad is when someone who doesn't know what they are doing start cutting and ripping and removing parts willy-nilly, then scraps the car because they don't know how to fix it.
Besides, I have always enjoyed seeing how people get more power and efficiency out of smaller engines than just skipping straight to a v-8. I am far more interested in a custom built four or six cylinder than I am in yet another v-8. How exciting is a Chevy 350?
Did you know that there are guys running 10 and 11 second 1/4 miles times in street driven and naturally aspirated Mopars powered by slant sixes? That is the kind of stuff that impresses me.
What is the fastest/most powerful naturally aspirated Pinto out there with four cylinders?
lol,..
Its why popsicles come in more than one flavor!
What taste good to one person makes another gag,.. thats the way it is.
V8 pintos are very cool,..4 banger pintos are cool,.. bone stock smoking pintos are cool.
In my eyes most any car can be cool.
Cars are destroyed by a miriad of ways, unfinished v8 conversions are just one of them.
I've scrapped 50 times more project cars that were simpler modifications. "I want to put in a 5 speed", "I want big disc brakes", "I want fuel injection", I'm going to rebuild the engine mtself",..I've seen cars go to the crusher because a guy couldnt figure out how to put his carbuerator back together. On and on the list goes. And 90% of those that wind up in the grinder the owner never made a concentrated effort to sell the project, they just lose interest, and cut their loses. I can say without a doubt, the VAST majority of all projects that get recycled are not V8 conversions.
I'll bet anything more pintos have died because people didnt know how to work on them.
I'm in the scrap industry, I see it every day. You want to stop Pintos from going to the crusher? Get on a notify list from all local wrecking yards,.. offer them scrap market value for every Pinto they get. they would be more than happy since they wouldnt have to proccess the car, and there are no disposal fees attached.
In no time you'd have a couple acres of rusted junk, a few thousand good parts, and maybe a couple dozen cream puffs that would have been shredded without anyone ever knowing about it.
In some areas where the car market is good,.. like the Seattle Tacoma area, the would be crusher recipients are "picked out" because the Wrecker either knows someone looking,.. or he knows there is a market for the car. If a clean fairly solid pinto showed up at the local proccesser tommorow, it would most likely be put aside. It would become a V8 project for one of their friends, and you would never know about it.
Quote from: Reed on August 08, 2008, 04:25:32 PM
Did you know that there are guys running 10 and 11 second 1/4 miles times in street driven and naturally aspirated Mopars powered by slant sixes? That is the kind of stuff that impresses me.
What is the fastest/most powerful naturally aspirated Pinto out there with four cylinders?
I've
seen 9 second six bangers. and I think I once saw a video of a 4 cylinder euro car doing high 8's
This car looks like a good chance for someone in the market for a V8 to pick up a decent looking car to start with, rather than cutting up another nice driver. You all have to understand, Pintony is in love with the 2.0!! I know exactly how he feels, my brother and I have owned and raced 2.0's in dirt modifieds and on the drag strips since 1971. I loved nothing more than to blow a GT 'Stang or Camaro into the weeds with my little 2.0! I loved the wow factor when I popped the hood! The only downside was that in order to do that, the engine needed to be highly modified and nitrous injected. That made it such a pain to drive on the street that more and more I left it parked. The wild cam sounded cool but it was a bit** to drive in traffic. Anything under 2000 RPM and it's bucking and jumping. Then there was the higher and higher cost of racing fuel that needed to be mixed with high test. When the last wild 2.0 swallowed two pistons before it ever made it to the track, I had to weigh the pros and cons. I still hated to give up on the 2.0 but I am very happy with the V8. I have been driving the heck out of my Pinto again!! ;D On 87 octane!! ;D 275 HP!! ;D
However, I have to agree with Ironman and Reed. This is NOT a weekend swap. My brother and I worked most nights and every weekend for 2 1/2 months on my swap. You need a well equipped shop to cut, weld, grind and fabricate. The amount time and effort you put forth dictates what you end up with. As I stated in my swap post, I spent 3 hours making the throttle bracket! When I started the swap, I told my brother, "I want it to look like it came with a V8". I think we accomplished that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Proud Owner of a V8 Pinto<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Quote from: Ironman on August 08, 2008, 05:05:52 PM
lol,..
Its why popsicles come in more than one flavor!
What taste good to one person makes another gag,.. thats the way it is.
V8 pintos are very cool,..4 banger pintos are cool,.. bone stock smoking pintos are cool.
In my eyes most any car can be cool.
Cars are destroyed by a miriad of ways, unfinished v8 conversions are just one of them.
I've scrapped 50 times more project cars that were simpler modifications. "I want to put in a 5 speed", "I want big disc brakes", "I want fuel injection", I'm going to rebuild the engine mtself",..I've seen cars go to the crusher because a guy couldnt figure out how to put his carbuerator back together. On and on the list goes. And 90% of those that wind up in the grinder the owner never made a concentrated effort to sell the project, they just lose interest, and cut their loses. I can say without a doubt, the VAST majority of all projects that get recycled are not V8 conversions.
I'll bet anything more pintos have died because people didnt know how to work on them.
I'm in the scrap industry, I see it every day. You want to stop Pintos from going to the crusher? Get on a notify list from all local wrecking yards,.. offer them scrap market value for every Pinto they get. they would be more than happy since they wouldnt have to proccess the car, and there are no disposal fees attached.
In no time you'd have a couple acres of rusted junk, a few thousand good parts, and maybe a couple dozen cream puffs that would have been shredded without anyone ever knowing about it.
In some areas where the car market is good,.. like the Seattle Tacoma area, the would be crusher recipients are "picked out" because the Wrecker either knows someone looking,.. or he knows there is a market for the car. If a clean fairly solid pinto showed up at the local proccesser tommorow, it would most likely be put aside. It would become a V8 project for one of their friends, and you would never know about it.
Looks like Ironman gets the point too........... ;)
Even if it`s a mess the parts are still worth money to everyone here in the group
Here's some recent listings of "Pintos gone bad" - these will most likely end up at the scrapper, too. Tears me up:
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/784811716.html
http://houston.craigslist.org/cto/790893030.html
What a mess. ???
Chris
you have any documentation to back up those numbers? or are we bench racing again? I hope you understand where I'm coming from. I can post a time slip from my race car and tell people its my stock 2.3L....
FrankBoss
i happen to like bench racing. its good way to spend the time not racing.
Wow, this thread took an obtuse turn...... :hypno:
Chris
Quote from: bigbellybob on August 11, 2008, 04:33:38 PM
im not saying my car is the fastest but it has ran mid 13's and has about 300hp naturally aspirated 2.3L.
At 300hp your car should be in the low 12s. But, lets talk about a N/A 300 hp 2.3 motor. HA !!!!!! I say. No way, sorry but I want to see a dyno sheet. Esslinger is putting out about 320ish HP with their Midget motors and they are as follows:
Displacement: 161 cubic inches
Weight: 220 lbs.
Block: All Aluminum Esslinger with fully integrated girdle and Ductile sleeves
Head: Reverse cooling S.O.H.C. five-tower aluminum Esslinger
Oil Pan: Cast Aluminum (not fabricated) with 2 oil pickups
Oiling System: Four stage Barnes Hi-Vac dry sump rotor pump
Fuel/Power Steering: KSE combo pump
Water Pump: Two piece cast Aluminum Esslinger with oil pump drive
Ignition: MSD DIS2 programmable
Crank: Knife edge A.D.I. Esslinger
Rods: Titanium
Pistons: Forged J.E.
Valves: Titanium
Retainers: Titanium
Keepers: Titanium
Rocker Cover: Ceramic coated cast aluminum
Exhaust System:
Dirt - Three step equal length merged collector
and Coast Fabrication muffler
Pavement - Five step equal length 4 into 2 into 1 collector
and Coast Fabrication muffler
So, You got one of those????????
not to mention this 73 is a automatic car...... makes me wonder
FrankBoss
Quote from: bigbellybob on August 11, 2008, 10:59:23 PM
turbopinto72 hp is not directly related to ET's if my car made any torque it would run faster. hp is directly related to RPM's and i should make peck hp around 9,000rpm. i use should and about because i have never had the car on a dyno. Esslinger gave me the ruff numbers and help with a lot of decisions. siting in the car you would know its pulling very hard 6000-9000. you told me nothing about that motor. so i don't have as much titanium and risk braking the stock crank. show me some specs. manufacturers and materials are worthless info. i believe the car to have about 300hp.
FCANON if it had a 5speed and a 9 inch stuffed with 600 gears dragging bumper would it be cool?
OK, so lets do some math. Lets say your car weighs in at 2500 lbs and you say you run mid 13s technically you should be able to do that with 201 Hp. Now, you claim your car has * About 300 hp * so factor that in and you get 11.8 @ 115 mph. I don't know how light your car is so lets give it the benefit of a doubt and say that its super light, * About * 2100 lbs , that will get you an 11.1 @ 122 mph. Or, maybe your car is really heavy, say 2900 lbs, with 300 hp that should run a 12.4 @ 109. Notice all the *should's* and *Abouts* here ?
So, a stock N/A 2.3 engine has * About * 105 hp ( note, there are several hp ratings but I chose the higher one). Now, if you start adding up all the manufactures claims for bolt on items you could get all kinds of results. Lets make a short list.
Cold air intake
Free flowing exhaust
Electric fan
Programed Chip ( not known if the car is EFI or carburetor )
Long tube header
Adjustable timing gear
Cam shaft
Ok, so we get any where from 20 to 30 hp here. How about a big valve head, maybe another 25-30, how about a shot of NOS ( stock rods and pistons ) 50 shot max. Lets see where we are . 105+30+30+50= 215. Ok and thats at the flywheel so deduct for the auto trans etc. maybe 10% and you got 194 rear wheel HP.
By the way, do you have a tach in that car? are you sure you are spinning it at 6-9k ? reason I ask is that the stock stuff does not last long at 6k let alone 9k AND you should be getting your peak torque at * about * 5500 rpm. Just for grins I am attaching Bo's ( from Boport.com ) dyno notes from his stock 93 N/A 2.3 mustang LX. Its pretty interesting.
Dyno 1 (baseline) netted 79whp. Thats right, 79whp at a blistering 4400rpm. Torque was an incredible stump pulling 116ft# at 2700rpm
Second pull was with the air filter assembly removed (I know, like this monster needs more power..) netted 82.7whp Incredible horspower production.
Quote from: bigbellybob on August 11, 2008, 10:59:23 PM
....hp is directly related to RPM's and i should make peck hp around 9,000rpm. i use should and about because i have never had the car on a dyno......
"Should" and "Does" are a world apart.
HP is a fictitious number based on RPM and torque.
A N/A 2.3 with over 150HP does not like to be used as a 'd/driver'. In basically stock form, a 2.3 can run to about 7K safely, but getting to 9K ain't easy ('Pinto' 2.3s tend to be a little more durable than the later 2.3s).
Even with all the mod.s I have made to my car I am no-where near 300HP.
I agree with Brad, those claims are way out there; be carefull WHO gives you information and WHY.
Bill
I would say that the engine in this video has a few more ponies than your motor. Check out the dyno runs, look at the max rpm and Hp ratings. Take a look at when the max Hp is VS the rpm. BTW it looks like this motor puts out 189 HP on an engine dyno. Not to shabby I would say.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8bmb3JqnqE
I'm still not buying the numbers alledged in the 73 2.3L Automatic Pinto built on a 3500 budget.....Brad when the last you talked to Dan maybe he can educate us on these Numbers from Esslinger ... I've spent many hours on a flow bench with oval 2.3L heads and to be honest I don't think it possible for a Cheater head to flow enough to support that HP with out Boost.
FrankBoss
Quote from: Pintony on August 12, 2008, 06:44:28 PM
What does this have to do with V8 projects gone bad???
:wow:
I motion to have the thread changed to " 4 cyl bragging rights gone bad"
I'm not taking sides here but my n/a 2.3 stock rod (but heavily massaged) combo sat at 7k rpm without a whimper in water burnouts and who knows where it was shifted out of the hole, I just counted to 2 with 5:13 gears then bang to 2nd... never did run a full pass in that thing without something else breaking...sorry, reminiscing again
Here's another...
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/car/769020895.html
OK all you V8 wanna-be's-take note!! Here are a couple of cast offs for a cheap price to do your swap. So buy them and save them from the crusher instead of cutting up another driver.
As far as the other side of this post, my old 2.0 ran mid 13's with a 75 shot of juice. My G-meter put the HP at 215. This is with 3:55 gears and a 4 speed shifted @ 7800.
In my racing experence with the 2.3's, I woild turn stock bottom ends 8K all the time. The heavy flywheel is what seems to break the crank if you go higher. The bottom ends on both of these engines are super strong even in stock form. The 2.0 racer was spun 9K all the time.
:lol: I don't under stand the anti V8 Pinto movement...and as far as I'm concerned the only Pintos worth V8ing is 71-73 I really preffer 71-72 but thats just me....
I have to pull my motor and refresh the paint under the motor this fall and winter so I will do a FAQ page on trimming the firewall, Cutting out the innerfenders and moving the firewall back. Maybe that will keep peoples good intentions from going bad when starting a V8 project.
FrankBoss
That's very helpful Frank. Unfortunately, most of the guys who start these conversions probably aren't involved in the PCCA - they are more interested in throwing something together than preserving Pintos. Your information will still go a long way towards the members here, though.
Chris
I stand by all my information in this post. Apparently bigbellybob thinks I don't know what I am talking about ( this was in a private email ). Thats fine, I am not convincing anyone to do anything, just pointing out some facts. I still say 300 Hp in a N/A motor is about max and to get that your talking about all aluminum motor on Alky. Which you would spend much more that $ 3,000 on.
71Pintoracer has the experience and parts to run what he says. He probably spent a few dollars on parts to make his engines last.( even though he gets then at a good price :)
A V8 Pinto is addictive. I understand saving the daily drivers from the boneheads that start what they cannot finish can be a futile effort. But mine sure puts asmile on my face, my boys faces and everyone she cruizes past. AMC understood this when they puit a v8 in a Pacer, that is when putting a V8 in a Pinto became important. Someone had to show them how its done. Pintos are cute little cars, they are fun little cars, but when changed they become mean little cars. :devil:
I've seen quite a few Gremlins with V8s but never a factory Pacer(not that I never thought about it)...I gotta see this I'm off to google.
FrankBoss
Sorry Gremlin, Pacer, what's the difference.
All right lets hear it.
no...you are right..and very cool I must admit. The pacer did come with a V8 but it didn't sale well with it...they even changed the hood so the motor would fit...Honestly if you didn't mention it I would have never known..thanks
FrankBoss
Hey, what happened to B-B-B's post about his 9K-rpm 300HP $3k N/A 2.3 motor??
I would like to hear more about it, not less; its a good way to find out WHO knows what they are talking about.
Bill
I don't think anyones a bad person for destroying a car by not finishing it, If I wanted to put a v8 in a Toyota Corolla and didn't finish it, I'm sure there's a croud out there somewhere that would hate me for that. I don't really care about those cars and it would mean nothing to me just as is doesn't to the guys doing the Pinto swaps. You have to remember theses cars are still the butt of many jokes. I overheard a guy at the Knotts meat last year commenting "this guy has more money in his engine then the entire car" refering to the gorgeous Black v8 Pinto. Kinda pissed me off but I'm too quiet of a guy to say anything. I love v8's, They sound awesome, My 4 banger doesn't run as smooth but I love it too, hell put anything in one just to be unique.
As that Knuckle head Jesse James would say (not exact quote)" It just makes the other ones just that much more valuable" as he tore into a perfectly good SS Chevy (El Camino I believe) and destroyed it.
Quote from: FCANON on August 13, 2008, 01:35:35 PM
:lol: I don't under stand the anti V8 Pinto movement...and as far as I'm concerned the only Pintos worth V8ing is 71-73 I really preffer 71-72 but thats just me....
I have to pull my motor and refresh the paint under the motor this fall and winter so I will do a FAQ page on trimming the firewall, Cutting out the innerfenders and moving the firewall back. Maybe that will keep peoples good intentions from going bad when starting a V8 project.
FrankBoss
ACK!! Cutting up 71's? I need to rephrase my earlier post,.. v8 pintos are cool! but cutting up 71's is very very bad! Once again V8s = cool!,.. cutting 71's= EVIL. Go find a 72 or 73, but leave the 71's alone!
I'm at a little bit of a loss as to this whole HP from the 4 banger thing. It sounds like you guys have gone the distance with these engines, and 200 hp is a very expensive trip.
Do you believe the Duratec will actually produce the HP claimed over the net with the minor modifications they describe?
Looks like there have been some posts deleted in this thred.....................................
Quote from: Pintony on August 13, 2008, 08:46:17 PM
Hello rear ended,
BUT you did not do the swap your self!!!!
That is what I am talking about!!!
Find a Pinto that has been prepaired for a V8 or one that already has a V8 like you did. Not cut up a low milage driver and then loose your storage at your friends house that your wife did not know about anyway!!!
Thank you for doing the right thing!!!
I do not have a problem with the V8 installed in a Pinto in any way.
Only the ones that are someones PIPE-DREAM and never finish them
Actually I may have one myself one day. Fact is I already do!!!
From Pintony
PIntony,
I am a little lost on the message,
" BUT you did not do the swap your self!!!! "
Sounds a little like I couldn't have done the swap. I accept the challenge? I found a new daily driver I am going to destroy and leave engine less on your lawn, but don't tell my wife. :lol:
I thought I was agreeing with you. I was saying that it $ux to see boneheads that do not complete what they start. I am sorry your freind left a cut up Pinto at your place and didn't tell his wife. It is obvious that has you're pissed, and you should be, it was a waste of a good Pinto.
No problem,
I was just razzing, I know you didn't mean anything by it. :cheesy_p:
If all the Pintos were on your lawn, they would be running.
I, just like everyone else need more money, I got my eye on a 410 HP V8, mine just isn't big enough. But then I would have to fix the suspension, connect the front and rear frame rails, change the rear end, install a bigger gas tank, etc. ON second thought, what were you saying "Just say no to V8 Pintos" You may be onto something.
Quote from: Ironman on August 13, 2008, 10:32:10 PM
ACK!! Cutting up 71's? I need to rephrase my earlier post,.. v8 pintos are cool! but cutting up 71's is very very bad! Once again V8s = cool!,.. cutting 71's= EVIL. Go find a 72 or 73, but leave the 71's alone!
I'm at a little bit of a loss as to this whole HP from the 4 banger thing. It sounds like you guys have gone the distance with these engines, and 200 hp is a very expensive trip.
Do you believe the Duratec will actually produce the HP claimed over the net with the minor modifications they describe?
So sorry Ironman that you think I am EVIL for putting a V8 in my '71 :(. But ya know what? It's my damn car!!! Some of us are not satisfied putting around with a whimpy 75 HP 4 banger!
And as far as cutting up the car? I don't understand the whole cutting up thing. I cut a section out of my firewall and boxed it in. With the engine in you can't even see it. If you could see it, 99% of the people wouldn't even know that it wasn't made that way. My entire radiator support is still there, it is just notched for the cap and also boxed in and looks like it came that way. Thats it-thats all of the "cutting" that was done!
Second of all, I have EVERY stock part that came off this car from the entire drivetrain down to the factory muffler and dog dish hub caps boxed up, labeled and in dry storage. I can put this car back to factory original any time I want to, and that includes putting the firewall and support back the way they were (read: doner car, cut, trim, weld, fill, sand, paint. Presto!)
I like my car, I like going fast, I like racing. I like having the first model year made, I like having 275 HP that runs smooth, idles smooth, and runs on 87 octane. So far I haven't found anything I don't like about my "evil swap". :devil:
Quote from: 71pintoracer on August 15, 2008, 09:17:46 PM
lol,
Just my sense of humor.
Man I dont care what anyone does to their car,.. you could cut the firewall out and put in a Rolls Merlin, chop the top and redo the interior with velcro and cover the car with smiley face stickers . :smile:
My cars originality is going to be destroyed by the conversion I'm doing and its a
71!.
tub it....cut out the firewall....10pt cage.....strut frt suspension....700" mountain motor
as long as it's a PINTO
Quote from: Pintony on August 16, 2008, 08:57:23 AM
AND you have the time a resource to finish the job!!!!
Maybe we could have the thread name changed to,.. "If your gonna start something,... FINNISH IT!" At least as far as I can tell thats what the point is,... right?