I just bought a 1972 4-speed Sedan exactly one week ago. The owner told me it drove ok and had no major problems. I however do not know how to drive manual, but I was willing to learn. I bought the car and had a friend drive it home for me. It was having major trouble going up any hill and the engine would die constantly, so I didn't get a chance to practice driving once the car got home. As soon as my friend that drove it home was available again, he drove it to the shop for me. I had a Tune up done, and they said my problem was the carburetor. We took it to a carburetor shop to have the carb rebuilt, and the guy said it had valve problems. He didn't recommend that I get it fixed, but said that I should try to get my money back since the seller lied to me about the mechanical condition of the car. I really like the car itself, but I am not mechanically inclined myself, so I have to pay to have mechanics do the work.
He tested the compression and it was showing:
Cylinder #1 145
Cylinder #2 25 - Very Low
Cylinder #3 70 - Low
Cylinder #4 55 - Very Low
Will this cost more than the car is worth to fix? Should I try to return the car?
Been a really stressful day.
these car were designed to run on leaded gas so u ether put in substitute or have the head gone though its about 3-400$. it is much easier to just have the harden seats and valve done than it is to stayed stocked up on lead substitute, and as u are there now. its just the price u pay to play.
IT all depends on YOUR goals.
If the car is STRAIT and SOLID, an engine job is cheaper to work with. Might be worth putting the money into (DEPENDING ON YOUR GOALS) but without seeing the car in person....
If the car sat for a long time, it might be ok after it runs for a while. Yamaha marie sells a good additive to free stuck rings. The stuff works great.
You can also learn as you go.
Where are you located?
Bill
Quote from: apintonut on August 07, 2008, 07:12:03 PM
these car were designed to run on leaded gas so u ether put in substitute or have the head gone though its about 3-400$. it is much easier to just have the harden seats and valve done than it is to stayed stocked up on lead substitute, and as u are there now. its just the price u pay to play.
Sorry, I'm a newbie so I don't understand. Are you saying that the car is running poorly because I am using normal unleaded gasoline?
Also, getting the valves fixed would only be $300-$400?
You need to find out IF it is the valves or the rings.
Did they put a little oil in each to see if it brought up the numbers?
You also need to understand that IF it IS the valves and you have the head re-done, there is a good chance (50-50) that the rings will start to leak at least a little.
Again, it all depends on your goals for the car, and the OVERALL condition of it.
Bill
Quote from: Kid Colt II on August 07, 2008, 07:18:08 PM
Sorry, I'm a newbie so I don't understand. Are you saying that the car is running poorly because I am using normal unleaded gasoline?
Also, getting the valves fixed would only be $300-$400?
sorry, but the valves went bad because of the "newer" gas 3-400$ if u pull the head and take to a shop then but it back on.
yes u have said that your not much of a mechanic. so the best way to learn is do it. and when ur done its that much better of a feeling of accomplishment.
we all have ur back to help
and u can still get books
if u do decide to fix. take ur time when taking it apart . label every thing.
Way back in the pre early 70s, cars ran on gas thatr had lead as an additive. Lead was nasty and made toxic exhaust. However, lead also helped cushion the impact of the valve faces on the cylinder head when the valves closed. When lead was removed from gas in the early 70s, to compensate for the loss of this cushioning effect car manufactures "hardened" the seats of the valves in the cylinder heads. Otherwise, the valves would eventually pit or crack and you would lose sompression in the cylinder.
Cylinder heads that were designed to run on unleaded gas then either had to have a lead substitute added or have "hardened" valve seats installed.
Low compression is typically caused by one of four things:
(1) worn cylinder bores or piston rings
(2) a blown head gasket
(3) a cracked or pitted valve
(4) valves out of adjustment
If you have worn rings or cylinder bores, you need a whole engine rebuild
If you have a blown head gasket you need a new head gasket (not too bad)
Ifyou have cracked or pitted valves, you need a cylinder head rebuild (not a bad idea anyway since you can have the hardened valve seats installed)
If your valves are out of adjustment you need to adjust them
If I were in your shoes, I would get ahold of a shop manual and adjust the valves. This may solve your problem.
If adjusting the valves doesn't solve the problem then you need to pull the cylinder head to determine exactly what is wrong. No matter if it is a worn out motor, a blown head gasket, or a cracked valve, you will need to pull the head to diagnose it.
I suspect that you most likely just need to rebuild the cylinder head and get some valves replaced. This should run about $500 if you have them install hardened seats.
If you like the car and the rest of the car si in good shape, a cylinder head rebuild isn't really that bad of a job. It isn't hard to get the head off and it isn't too expensive to pay a reputable shop to rebuild it. However, I strongly urge you to get a shop manual and do as much of the work as you can yourself.
it depends on your own dedication to your pinto, the goals you have set for yourself and the car. if you want to keep the car i would do as suggested and have the head work done, but you will also need to check your rings, as they might also be bad, With the compression as you showed it i would think it might be both. we are all here to help and will help anyway that we can, so please keep us updated as to your progress and what your plans are.
My own 2 cents. compression readings like that would make me think the rings probably arnt bad. Rings and cylinders usually wear pretty even across the board. In other words, whatever condition the rings in the cylinder with 145lbs,.. the rest are probably about the same.
I would suspect valve ajustment or valve seats hammered out and split valves. You have some pretty low readings, it takes a good sized escape route for compression to be as low as 25 lbs. I agree with everyone that you should get a decent maual if your going to try it yourself. And if you have a friend whos mechanicaly inclined,.. (someone who can actually put something back together and make it run) see if they will help you with your project.
Another simple test you can do to determine if the problem is cylinder (ring) related, or head related is to start the car and look for smoke in two places.
1. The tail pipe,.. if the rings are shot, oil from the crankcase will enter the combustion chamber and burn,.. making smoke out the tail pipe. that is not a sure fire test, but it will tell you if oil is entering the combustion chamber. it can also enter by leaking past the valve.
2. Pull the oil filler cap and see if there is light smoke "puffing" out. If there is this is a definate sign of exaust gasses entering the crankcase, either by sloppy rings or a burnt piston. This condition is called "blow by"
If your engine passes the blow by test,.. you should only have to do some head work.
Dont let the project or all the terms your hearing spook ya. Did you ever put a model car together? In some ways the real thing is even easier,.. the parts are bigger and heavier but easier to put together.
If you decide to tackle the problem yourself, dont be overwhelmed. take the project one step at a time. In other words break it down into smaller goals. Like maybe the first step will be to clean the engine so you dont get dirt and crud inside when you open it up.
this could take a couple evenings if you've never done it. Then maybe the goal for the third evening would be to remove the battery from the car, drain the oil from the engine the coolant from the radiator and remove the radiator. Its not nessesary to remove the radiator for this task, but a good Idea so it doesnt get damaged. Stuff happens sometimes. Try to find something to protect the fenders from scratches while your working, and dont lean to hard on the fenders, they will pop back out if they dent,.. but it will leave marks. Another good habit to get into when doing a project in small seperate stages is to put all the bolts and fasteners that came out for that sub assembly together in one area. Example would be put the radiator somwhere it wont get kicked around, and put the bolts and hoses in a little box with it.
Maybe you could take on removing the intake and exhaust manifolds the next evening. take your time, and become familiar with using tools correctly. If at all possible allways try to use "box end" wrenches or 6 point sockets when removing bolts, this will help ensure less chance of damage to fasteners. If you are unsure what these tools are,.. go to an auto parts store and have someone there show them to you. You might even find someone that can give you a little help on how to do things.
Once you have the intake and exhaust out of the way your ready to remove the timming belt and take off the cylinder head.
And remember,.. BEFORE you take anything apart, do the test I described above for smoke.
Once the cylinder head is off, with out experience it will be difficult for you to determine if the rings are bad.
Good luck!
Ironman
I re-read my post and realized it wasn't a moel of clarity.
I believe that the low compression is most likely caused by valves that need adjustment. I strongly recommend adjusting them before you do anything more drastic. This should only set you back the cost of a valve covere gasket, a set of feeler guages, and a set of wrenches. Not more than $50. A valve adjustment on a four cylinder shouldn't take more than a few hours, (more likeless than one) even if you are a newbie.
Maybe someone can scan the instructions for a valve adjustment and post them?
Reed has a very good point, and I failed to emphasize it as well.
Ironman
Thank you all very much for the info and support. Sadly, I am mechanically inept. I live in the city in an apartment, and don't even have a garage to work in even if I wanted to tackle it myself.
The man at the carburetor shop wrote "Engine has low compression and is burning oil".
Does the "burning oil" part make this situation worse? ???
I suppose I'll take it to another shop tomorrow. I really like the car, I just wish it liked me a bit more. :P
Quote from: Pintony on August 08, 2008, 12:07:33 AM
Hello Kid Colt II,
The 2.0 is really bad for having broken valve stem seals.
This is most likely causing the oil burn
They are easy enough to change W/O removing the head.
Does you Pinto happen to be yellow?
From Pintony
Greetings, yes, my pinto indeed happens to be yellow.
*Looks over his shoulder, then under the computer desk*
Where ya' hidin' at? :P
Quote from: Pintony on August 08, 2008, 12:20:13 AM
Hello Kid Col tII,
Did your friend drive your new Pinto from palmdale?
You saying Lemon clued me in!!!!
I'll even bet your mom or sister has said it!!!
From Pinto
Yeah.....
It was driven home from Palmdale....
Eek. :o
I know how you feel kid colt, mine isnt being to Friendly with me either, but im not mechanically Inept as you put it. I can work on my car just dont have alot of time between working 2 Jobs to put food on the table as well as clothing and other nessesities. but i would if i were you go to a local Auto parts store Invest teh 15$ for the book, and spend a bit on An SAE/metric set of tools to have handy for when you decide to learn to do the work yourself, I've looked to the board here for advice and gotten alot of it, and i look to my father and his best friend who both have worked on cars for a combined total over 100 years,
Its being the way it is now due to the lack of respect givin to the car when the previous owners had it. mine looks Shabby but she Still runs and was Babied for the most part by my father. =) I wish you the best of luck with the car though
anything you need Ask here on the board you'll get answers from some of the finest people i've met. I will help anyway i can,(i'm not as car Savvy as most of the people on here but im great at finding parts)
Quote from: Pintony on August 08, 2008, 12:35:46 AM
You guys out in California still have Pinto books at the parts store????
Kid Colt don't need no stinking BOOK!! SAVE the 15 bucks!!!
He has got the PCCA for parts and info.
Problem is!! The book was writen by an author NOT a Pinto guy..
Damn I'm alot smarter than any Chiltons book!!!
From Pintony
lol this is true. and i dont live in California anymore tony, havent since the late 90's when i left basic training rofl
When I got my Pinto I had about 60 pounds in one cylinder and one or two more were below the highest. I adjusted the valves and the 60 went up to 132. The engine had 86,000 miles on it and probably never had the valves adjusted. There was ZERO lash on virtually every exhaust valve.
Your car is 36 years old. You can't expect it to be trouble free (regardless of what some seller stated). Look at this as a learning experience. I sorry to be so blunt, but owning a car like this and knowing how to fix it (they are rather simple as cars go) go hand in hand. Otherwise you will pay dearly for someone to tinker with your car and quite frequently I would suspect. Start by learning how to adjust the valves. See if that makes a difference. I wish you all the best.
Tom
Here are pics of the car. Sorry, it's dark out here in California this hour, and I haven't had time to wash/wax her yet. So here she is, as I bought her. Those white specs you see all over the hood is just moisture.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/ResOGlas/P1.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/ResOGlas/P2.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/ResOGlas/P3.jpg)
wow, thats nice even though its dark it looks to be a nice ride, regardless of the mechanical flaws id fix it up
I paid a mere $700 for her. I thought that was a great deal because the body seemed clean, original paint, and no rust. Only problem is that to be honest, I'm quite frankly...poor. So not in good driving condition scares the *** out of me. :lost:
This was my last older car I owned. She was pretty nice, but I couldn't afford the standard maintenance on her. She was just a tad more than $700 though. ;)
I lost my fortune investing in the Puppy dog, candy, and fireworks factory.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/ResOGlas/Bentley004.jpg)
Wow :o That's a really decent looking car - with a body like that, the engine is definitely worth fixing. I wish my '72 looked that good, then there'd be nothing much to do it at all. Fortunately, mine runs great and the valves were adjusted by the seller the day before I picked it up. Drove it home 165 miles on the Interstate!
I had hoped to do all the cosmetic stuff this summer but family health problems have interfered with that plan. I have accumulated pretty much everything I need parts-wise to re-do it... now just having problems finding the time to work on it. Worst case scenario, it may have to wait until Spring although I still have hopes of getting it done before winter. We'll see!
By the way, I'm pretty mechanically inept too, although I do fairly well with bodywork, paint, and interior restoration. My advice is to make friends with someone who has a little mechanical knowledge. Then you can either learn by watching/helping or, at the very least, have a source to turn to when you encounter problems. Choosing a 36 year old car is a committment, moreso than buying a new one. The rewards, however, are legion. For instance, no one gives me a thumbs up when I go down the road in my $35,000 2008 Chrysler Sebring convertible... whereas I get honks, cheers, thumbs up, and high fives every time I drive my little Pinto ;D, even in it's sad cosmetic state.
Another word of inspiration... Pintos, generally speaking, are not all that expensive to work on. My classic car interests over the years also include Lincolns and Rolls Royces. The paint job alone on one of my Lincolns cost double what I'll have invested in my Pinto to bring up to where I want it. And we don't even want to talk about RR parts! Fix your car, maintain it, and ENJOY!
Dwayne :smile:
Quote from: dga57 on August 08, 2008, 01:23:33 AM
And we don't even want to talk about RR parts! Fix your car, maintain it, and ENJOY!
Dwayne :smile:
That's why I sold my 1967 Bentley T. I loved her dearly, but even with a convenient Rolls Royce-specific junkyard in LA by Beverly Hills, it still was too much for parts and repairs for me.
I posted my last message to you before you posted the Silver Shadow photo! If you truly owned that, then you're well acquainted with the maintenance costs... let alone repairs! I had an 85 Silver Spirit that was close to that color but two-toned with a darker claret on the bottom. Had the tan hides with red piping. Sweet ride but decided to sell it in favor of a 1989 Silver Spur about two years ago. Due to financial restrictions, I had to sell the Spirit prior to locating a Spur. Sold it and then, while searching for just the right replacement, my 46-year-old wife suddenly suffered a debilitating stroke. That ended her career and, even though she draws disability, reduced our annual income by approximately $20,000. As a result, I am currently Rolls-less and probably will be for a while. A friend of mine has a nice 80K 1988 Silver Spur for sale at the moment and I'd love to have it but one promise I made myself years ago is that I would never borrow money to feed my car hobby. So far I've made good on that vow and my intention is to let his Rolls pass :'( no matter how much I'd like to do otherwise. :(
Dwayne :smile:
Well, duh... my bad :embarassed: After a second look, I see that your car was, in fact a Bentley! I had just made the other post when I saw the picture and set down and typed another whole response which I posted, then saw your reply referring to it as a Bentley. Went back and took a second look. Mea culpa! You know, living here in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia, seeing a Rolls is an event. There might be a half a dozen within a 100 mile radius. You seldom see more than one or two even at British car shows. As far as Bentleys, I've never actually seen one except in photos. Essentially, however, the cars are identical when it comes to working on them.
Dwayne :smile:
Quote from: dga57 on August 08, 2008, 01:37:47 AM
I posted my last message to you before you posted the Silver Shadow photo! If you truly owned that, then you're well acquainted with the maintenance costs... let alone repairs!
Never thought I'd meet another RR/Bentley owner here on the Pinto Forums. Heh, yes, I truly did own her. So much fun to drive, so little fun to see the repair bill.
Got to agree with you there... I've met a few Lincoln afficionados here but wasn't expecting to meet up with a Rolls guy. Just curious... I see in your profile that you're twenty-five. Seldom see guys that age who've gone the Rolls/Bentley route. There's bound to be a story there! As for me, I acquired my first (a 1965 Silver Cloud III) as an inheritance from my grandfather. I was eighteen at the time. I also owned a 1974 Ford Pinto Runabout that I had purchased new two years earlier. Comparatively, the Rolls was w-a-y more car than I was used to handling and, after driving it for about six months) I opted for selling. Wish I had it back now... the value has gone crazy on those things! Anyway, going from that back to the Pinto was a culture shock too. I then compromised by trading my Pinto and using the money I got out of the Cloud to buy a Lincoln Town Car. It was a much more modern configuration than the Rolls I'd had and once I got used to driving it, I felt quite comfortable with the larger car. Since then, I've owned ten other Lincolns (still have a '79 Collector's Series Continental and a '79 Mark V) and the Silver Spirit I mentioned earlier which was a much more driveable car than the Cloud. My main purpose in deciding to move up to a Silver Spur was that I have a fifteen-year-old son whose feet have gotten so large, I thought the additional rear footroom would be appreciated, plus he was always sad that our Spirit didn't have the rear trays since that's where he rode most of the time. If I had known what was going to happen, I would have kept what I had!
I bought my Pinto in January of this year. Just had a longing to have another one after all these years! ::)
Dwayne :smile:
Kid Colt II where in Califonia are you located? At least the city (specific) would help those near you for input you need.
Tom
Quote from: Wittsend on August 08, 2008, 09:01:28 AM
Kid Colt II where in Califonia are you located? At least the city (specific) would help those near you for input you need.
Tom
Redondo Beach, CA :)
Hey there, just caught this thread.
Id be willing to lend a helping hand trouble is i cant go anywhere. Youd have to come here. Im in Sunland, Ca. straight up the 405 and make a right down the 118 to the 210. About an hour in light traffic.
http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Redondo+Beach,+CA&geocode=&dirflg=&daddr=sunland&f=d&sll=33.84447,-118.38795&sspn=0.104934,0.220585&ie=UTF8&ll=34.223726,-118.406181&spn=0.208932,0.44117&t=h&z=12
Yahh i remember the valve adjustmant routine on my ol 2.0 engine. Put about 200,000 on her over 2 rebuilds and 13 years.
Im afraid that you will have to get some basic tools, and some dirt under the fingernails when you own ANY car thats 36 years old my friend. I also live in an apartment and have to work on the vehicles that i own to save money , and for my now project car of 5 years. The only way i can do it is to be discreete for light stuff and pick later hours for major manitinence. :hypno: Ive had more than my fair share of 3:00 to 4:00am nights because of that. However having said that i dont live in the big buks Redondo beach area.Im sure that they (managers) monitor more closely out there.
That said if i could help and you wanted to spend a few hours down here. Buy me some Mcdonalds lunch and ill see if we cant get something figured out up here.
Robert
I just read both pages of this post.
After almost 50 years of automotive repair (as a gas station owner) I have to agree with some of the replies. Theres no reason why you couldn't do the work your self. And purchasing a book is a good idea. If nothing else it (the manual) will give you a better understanding of the engine and etc. If you don't try it, how do you know that you cant do it !
On another subject,,,,,, Damage done to an engine, because of the lack of lead ? And adding a lead substitute ?
Both are subjects that will bring on all kind of arguments, so I think I will through my two cents worth in.
First of all, some of you are old enough to remember the "flying red horse" and the fact that this company sold gasoline WITHOUT LEAD ADDED, or "lead free". And advertised it. "our gas contains no lead"
Wouldn't you question how the cars that ran on this gas didn't have any valve problems ?
One thing that I can tell you is.......... back in the days (50's, 60's, 70's) we never expected to get a car (engine) to run smooth when it had 80,000 or more miles on it. It needed a valve job at this point, because of wear.
Surprise, surprise, they were designed that way. Also. metal wasn't hardened back in the "old days"
The oil companies added the lead because it was THE CHEEPEST WAY to boost the octane, then told (sold) you that it was to do wondrous things (like cushion the valves)
Remember they also sold you on how much better it was when they removed it, AND CHARGED YOU EXTRA for the unleaded or low leaded gas. Ah, those were the days ! ! !
As to a lead additive, why don't you get some input from those scientist, engineer guys. Gees. I hate them, you ask them what time it is and they build you a watch.
In my opinion (remember I'm just a mechanic, I only fix the things) anything you add to the gasoline, goes out the tailpipe. Doesn't do anything for the engine on the way.
Bottom line,,,, you don't need lead,,,,,,,,never did,,,,, never will,,,,,,,
There I said it, opened the can of worms, now I'm ready for the abuse.
The best one I gotten so far was,,,,,,,,,, I drove truck for over twenty years, hauling gasoline, so I know.
Couldn't argue with that logic, so I quit.
Hope you got a better argument then that,,,,,,,,best to ya,Jim at jimspinto
Nope, I was just repeating what I have heard. I do know that many "leaded" engines have run fine for deades on "unleaded" gas with no cracked valves or heads.
Quote from: Reed on August 09, 2008, 09:51:59 AM
Nope, I was just repeating what I have heard. I do know that many "leaded" engines have run fine for deades on "unleaded" gas with no cracked valves or heads.
Re, "nope, I was just repeating what I heard"
Did I miss something, I don't quite understand what you meant !
Then again maybe your post wasn't directed to me, and or my post on the use of "lead"
I went back and reread you (only) post. Re. alot of engines ran fine on unleaded, until...... Is that what your referring to ?
Maybe you could explain, you know us country bumkins don't always get it the first time
Thanks Jim at jimspinto
Got my 72' back on the road today, had a fun time. :)
Sounds great. Enjoy!
Dwayne :smile: