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Author Topic: Turbo Pinto, 5 years..., Finally running right!!!  (Read 4499 times)

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Offline Wittsend

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Turbo Pinto, 5 years..., Finally running right!!!
« on: August 24, 2013, 11:30:48 PM »
It was back in November of 2007 when I bought my Pinto wagon.  I had an '88 Turbo Coupe (5 - Speed) that had been sitting for four years and my wife wanted it gone.  I wanted to swap the drivetrain into something (Pinto, Capri, ??? ). Thus, the reason for my purchase.

I spent the Summer of 2008 doing the swap. Though I got it running, there were issues in getting it to run right. It idled rough and ran really bad at 2,500 RPM. Pulling the Spout helped, but not enough. I spent the next two years utterly frustrated trying to sort the problem out.  I used the resources of the PCCA, Turbo Pinto, Turbo Ford, NATO and the Ranger Station to no avail.  I replaced EVERY sensor and relevant parts (VAM, Distributor, TFI, PIP, Fuel Pump, Computer, etc, etc). I checked out the complete fuel system, chased down the wiring... .

I finally gave up in 2010 and started on a '64 Studebaker Daytona project (350 Chevy/700R4).  The Pinto basically sat, and was rarely driven for three years.  It was always in the back of my mind though.  This Summer I ventured back to hopefully sort the Pinto out.  I repeated the testing I had previously done and after a number of full days was ready to give up again.

One of the last things I was going to try was swapping the coil (even though I had done that before). As I looked over the Schematic I took notice of the wire to the coil that received 12 volts +.  With nothing to lose I jumpered the positive side of the battery to the coil + simply because it only took a few seconds.

  WHOA... The idle smoothed out.  A test drive showed the car was running significantly better!!!  The only difference I found was the coil was getting 13.6 volts un-jumped and 13.8 volts jumped.  Whatever..., I was just thrilled after a five year wait to get the Turbo Pinto to run correctly. There was only one issue.  With the jumper wire the car kept running when the key was turned off.  I remedied that with a relay spliced in the jumper and activated by a switched feed.

I still don't know what caused the problem, but I do know a reasonable  work-around.  I still have things to work out on the Pinto, but maybe I can make Knotts 2014.  Anyway, I just wanted to report my long waited joy and hopefully encourage others struggling with their projects.

Tom

Offline oldkayaker

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Re: Turbo Pinto, 5 years..., Finally running right!!!
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2013, 04:07:10 AM »
Congratulation s on your success and amazing persistence.  Just wondering if some of the Pinto resistance wire got in there.  I never liked Ford's use of resistance wire instead of one of those white ceramic resistors that I can see (a pet peeve).
Jerry J - Jupiter, Florida

Offline dga57

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Re: Turbo Pinto, 5 years..., Finally running right!!!
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2013, 08:22:48 AM »
Congratulation s, Tom!!!  Way to go!
 
Dwayne :)
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Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Turbo Pinto, 5 years..., Finally running right!!!
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2013, 08:33:53 AM »
Congrats, glad to hear you found the problem.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Offline Wittsend

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Re: Turbo Pinto, 5 years..., Finally running right!!!
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2013, 11:53:45 PM »
You know Old Kayaker, it is interesting because I used the harness, fuse box and steering column from the Turbo Coupe.  Thus, engine wise all the wiring was common to the donor engine.  The only thing I recall was that I HAD to cut the resistance wire to remove the column.  As I recall it was even printed on the wire "Do Not cut," but I had no choice.  I never changed its length and soldered the cut point.  Could that make so much of a difference???

Thanks guys for the Con-Grats.

Tom

Offline oldkayaker

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Re: Turbo Pinto, 5 years..., Finally running right!!!
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2013, 04:45:12 AM »
Looking at 87TC wiring diagrams, it does not use a resistance wire between the ignition switch and the coil/TFI for the positive 12V feed (verified on my 87TC harness with a ohm meter).  There is a resistor between the TFI/coil negative terminal and the computer for the IDM feed.  This negative circuit resistor is physical one about 2" long and encapsulated in a black plastic material.
 
Not having 88TC diagrams or harness, I can not determine what you have.  Just amazed that Ford changed the design.  I do have diagrams for a 88 Mustang 2.3 and it is like my 87TC (no coil positive resistance wire).  If it means anything, I plugged a 88TC computer into my 87TC and it worked fine.
 
My guess now is that your direct battery connection is cleaner with less electrical noise (battery acts like a large capacitor to kill noise).  Have fun driving it with your ingenious solution.
Jerry J - Jupiter, Florida

Offline Wittsend

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Re: Turbo Pinto, 5 years..., Finally running right!!!
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2013, 04:45:18 PM »
Frankly I don't know exactly where the resistance wire runs, I only recall noticing it when I adapted the Turbo Coupe steering column. But, I did assume it was somehow ignition related.  As you must know that 87-88 harness (I had ride control too) is a real nightmare to dissect.  Regardless I wanted all the gauge wiring, alternator hook-up, fan/fuel pump relays, cruise control etc., in addition the steering column functions, so that is why I persisted with it.

"My guess now is that your direct battery connection is cleaner with less electrical noise (battery acts like a large capacitor to kill noise).  Have fun driving it with your ingenious solution."

 - I absolutely agree with that.  Though, when I scoped my VAM and TPS I also looked at the alternator output.  I wasn't sure what level of A/C I should see (if any), but compared to the total DC voltage it didn't seem much at all.   I am wondering if the alternator is at issue???

  It is the  Red//light green wire that goes to the coil.  As best I could  trace that wire it came off the alternator (in a larger wire gauge) then stepped down to a smaller wire and went to the Coil, TFI and ride control (maybe elsewhere too).  The other oddity is that with the Spout removed the car idled decent, but was still a bit wiggy - mostly around 2,500 RPM.

If you have the full schematic could I trouble you to let me know where the Red/light green wire goes.  The diagram I have shows most areas around the computer (Coil, TFI etc.), but  then the Red/light green wire goes to  a "H" fusible and I have no idea where it goes after that.

Thanks, Tom

Offline oldkayaker

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Re: Turbo Pinto, 5 years..., Finally running right!!!
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2013, 04:44:11 AM »
The following is based on the 87TC EVTM.  The coil positive post R/LG goes to: TFI, integrated control module, alternator integral regulator I via LG/R, fuse panel #18 10A fuse, fuse link 20 gauge blue F or K (EVTM typo?).  This fuse link is fed by the ignition switch start via BR/PK and run via R/LG. See jpg below.
 
With the SPOUT plug removed, the ignition timing reverts to TFI control (no computer control).  Although not shown in the EVTM, the three TFI wires (PIP DB, ign gnd BK/O, & SPOUT Y/LG) are grouped together and shielded all the way to the computer with the shield grounded at the computer.  If the shield or ground did not survive the extraction from the TC, those signals would be more susceptible to electrical noise.  So removing the SPOUT plug would eliminate this noise from the ignition timing (another guess).

I spent 2 to 3 months of spare time dewiring my 87TC and documenting it in a exel file, then discovered the factory Electrical Vacuum Trouble-shooting Manuals on eBay.  These EVTM's save a whole lot of frustration and time.  There is the occasional typo but they are great.  There is one on eBay presently, search on: 1988 EVTM Thunderbird.
Jerry J - Jupiter, Florida

Offline Wittsend

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Re: Turbo Pinto, 5 years..., Finally running right!!!
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2013, 12:23:53 PM »
Old Kayaker,

I greatly appreciate all your input. I think until someone has "been there, done that," - especially with an '87-'88 harness it is hard to comprehend the difficulty.

Is it possibly you could email/personal message the image you posted in a higher resolution?  Try as I may, I'm having difficulty reading it under the posting size limitations of the Forum.

Thanks, Tom  (Wittsend)

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Turbo Pinto, 5 years..., Finally running right!!!
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2013, 12:55:00 PM »
If you open the pic then save it to your desktop you can enlarge it and read it easy.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Offline Wittsend

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Re: Turbo Pinto, 5 years..., Finally running right!!!
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2013, 01:07:54 PM »
Yes, thank you.  I have enlarged the image, but the resolution is not high enough that the enlargement is legible  (at least for my eyes). The letters become too blocky when enlarged.  Even "Sharpening" it in Photoshop does not provide the detail I need to read the schematic.

Tom

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Turbo Pinto, 5 years..., Finally running right!!!
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2013, 01:26:03 PM »
I changed the resolution to 1166x900 then enlarge it, it's still blocky but it's readable.
Art
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Offline oldkayaker

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Re: Turbo Pinto, 5 years..., Finally running right!!!
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2013, 08:30:12 PM »
Wittsend, I scanned that page and few others in higher resolution and emailed them to you.  Have fun.
Jerry J - Jupiter, Florida

Offline pintoguy76

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Re: Turbo Pinto, 5 years..., Finally running right!!!
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2013, 08:37:46 PM »
Remove the resistor wire completely. I did on my 74 and never had any issues once i installed my EFI engine. It started right up the very first time I tried and ran like it should have.
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: Turbo Pinto, 5 years..., Finally running right!!!
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2013, 02:05:19 PM »
The issue is that I used the 88 Turbo Coupe harness/fuse box and steering column (where the resistor wire is located).  Therefore everything is common to the stock Turbo Coupe setup.  So, the resistor wire should not be causing issues.

Had I used the Pinto column I could see the potential for problems.  The only thing I'm wondering is the resistor wire says "do not cut" right on it.  BUT, you can't get the wiring out of the 88 harness "twisted spaghetti" wiring without cutting it.  I soldered it and never removed any of its length.

Tom