Author Topic: Water Injection? (Read 4082 times)

2point3turbo · « **on:** November 26, 2006, 01:23:20 PM »

I have put on a water injection kit on my car and was wondering if the intercooler was even needed anymore? So far I have not had a chance to get dyno tested yet but will soon so I can relay the gains. It has made a HUGE difference. I went for my first test run and it was amazing! The car felt like NOS was being injected!!! WOW! My research on this pretty much renders the intercooler useless. If the air temp drops to much... not good. If its not cool enough... not good. My question would be that if I can lose the weight of the intercooler and pipes and with the water doing a better job, why have the intercooler?

Pintony · « **Reply #1 on:** November 26, 2006, 04:12:46 PM »

Hello 2point3turbo,
I think you are thinkingon the right track W/un-installing the intercooler. MAYBE?
If the intercooler remains you have it all the time.
The water will eventually run-out and have to refill.
From Pintony

P.S. are you running 100% water or a ethanol MIX???

turbopinto72 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 26, 2006, 10:12:48 PM »

I know that a good water injector is well worth the effort. I also hear that windshied washer fluid works great in a water injection unit.

turbopinto72 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 26, 2006, 10:36:17 PM »

Hey guys, check this site out for your water injection. ( washer fluid)
http://www.enginerunup.com/can-i-use-washer-fluid-/info_22.php

oldkayaker · « **Reply #4 on:** November 27, 2006, 09:13:04 AM »

Although not Pinto, this is a 2.3L Ford. This link has some interesting test data on a home designed water injection system. Some of the other site links here are interesting also.
http://www.key-ideas.com/2ndWaterInjection.htm

This vendor advertises high end generic water injection systems. Some of the controllers have interesting ideas.
http://www.snowperformance.net/products.asp?id=1

Gaslight · « **Reply #5 on:** November 27, 2006, 03:29:25 PM »

Water injection is used to control detonation. It really did not work that well for that. All your doing is cooling the charge under boost and water does not burn in droplet form so what you are really doing is taking away from the power in the gasoline by replacing it with something that removes heat. Leave the intercooler because if it is getting good clean air from outside the car then its doing more than water injection ever could. If you are trying to control detention then get device (there are a number of them on the market) that retards your timing based on boost psi in the intake manifold. You will make more power and it is a much more precise method to control detention.

Jake

2point3turbo · « **Reply #6 on:** November 27, 2006, 05:01:30 PM »

I have decided to go without the intercooler to try and speed up spool and pressure response time. It will also lighten my car up a bit and that always helps. I plan on running 50/50. What is the device that retards timing under pressure? Also water is free and so far the research is ponting towards water allowing higher octane fuels to be used without detination. I hope this all works out and will keep posting my results. If the intercooler makes a difference thats noticable then I will keep it but so far it hasnt been all that impressive. Loss of psi due to its size means loss of hp. It just makes sence to switch and get better response with the boost not having to pressurize the intercooler then lose 3-5 psi then go into intake. Maybe I just went to big on the intercooler??

Gaslight · « **Reply #7 on:** November 27, 2006, 07:10:13 PM »

The thing here to ask yourself is why do all newer performance vehicles use intercoolers? Even Ford added intercoolers to the 2.3 to get more power. If you are having a lag problem since adding the intercooler than yes I would say you added an intercooler not sized correctly to what you are doing. Also you could have a leak somewhere in the system. Pressurizing it and seeing if you have a pressure drop would be a good test. Just like a compression test on an engine. An intercooler properly sized and if it is getting good clean air should help bring the air temp back closer to ambient after the turbo heated it up. If your intercooler is sized correctly and is not losing pressure another good thing to do is to use a turbo from an intercooled car. They do have a slightly different compressor and exhaust profile. The device I was talking about is like an HKS EGC (electrical governor control). MSD makes a like device and so does Jacobs. IF you go to there websites or give them a call they should be able to point you to the right setup. These devices just need to be referenced to the pressure in the surge tank (anywhere between the throttle body and the lower manifold). They allow the ability to retard the timing based on the amount of boost pressure the engine is seeing. This is much more accurate way of dealing with detonation. Its the same thing that is built into the newer ECU's. They use the knock sensor as the trigger. Also with one of these units you can run more timing at the lower RPM's to help get the turbo to spool faster.

Jake

77turbopinto · « **Reply #8 on:** November 27, 2006, 08:46:16 PM »

Quote from: Gaslight on November 27, 2006, 07:10:13 PM

... you can run more timing at the lower RPM's to help get the turbo to spool faster...

Less timing will spool faster. Some drag racers have a SPOUT switch in the car to retard the timing.

Quote from: 2point3turbo on November 27, 2006, 05:01:30 PM

…try and speed up spool and pressure response time. …

What is the device that retards timing under pressure? …

If the intercooler makes a difference thats noticable then I will keep it but so far it hasnt been all that impressive. …..Loss of psi due to its size means loss of hp. It just makes sence to switch and get better response with the boost not having to pressurize the intercooler then lose 3-5 psi then go into intake. Maybe I just went to big on the intercooler??

1, Are you sure you have a “lag” issue/problem?

2, If you are running a Ford SVO or T/C set-up, the knock sensor does that. Not by pressure, but by what it's called. The only bad thing is they tend to pull timing when there is no "knock." Lots of people dissconnect them.

3, The I/C can be small or big but it’s the flow is the issue, some just do better than others. Yes, it needs to be matched to a degree, but airflow TO it and through it is critical to it’s performance.

I agree with Gas and Tony, keep the I/C. If you have an ECU made for a car with a factory I/C and you don’t run with it, you will need the water all the time or the ECU will pull the timing via the K/S.

Water injection changes the comp. ratio.

Yes, a turbo from an I/C-ed car COULD be different and help with spooling issues. Ford went with the IHI with the I/C-ed T/C’s, BUT there might be a trade off for you depending on what you do. The IHI does not do as well at higher boost levels.

What are your goals for this car? (drag race, road race, auto-x, D/D) There are trade-offs for each.

Bill

turbopinto72 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 27, 2006, 09:49:52 PM »

Jake, I'm not sure I totally agree with you. I have run both innercooler and water injection. Water injection does work really well for detonation. I think with a good boost retard and fuel management system you can get just as good results as an innercooler.

Gaslight · « **Reply #10 on:** November 28, 2006, 07:45:51 AM »

"Less timing will spool faster. Some drag racers have a SPOUT switch in the car to retard the timing."

Bill that is too much of a blanket statement. Off the line you want a little more timing to get the exhaust heat up and get the turbo spinning. As RPM as boost comes up you want it to start retarding.

Yes water injection does work. I don't mean to put it up that it does not. But it is older technology that does not work as well as some of the newer items out there. Water does not burn, water cools. That is the exact opposite of what you want to happen in the combustion chamber. Water injection was a great option on carb cars but with fuel injection and electronic ignition it makes more sense to exploit the options these give. Controlling the timing and referencing it to boost is something that has been used since the 80's on early turbo cars and is really gotten high tech in the last couple of years.

Jake

Pintony · « **Reply #11 on:** November 28, 2006, 09:16:21 AM »

JIM from Turbo Connection just pulled 680 HP out of a 06 GTO using 100% alcohol in a water injection unit.
His 06 also has a Supercharger.
From Pintony

Gaslight · « **Reply #12 on:** November 28, 2006, 09:31:15 AM »

Quote from: Pintony on November 28, 2006, 09:16:21 AM

JIM from Turbo Connection just pulled 680 HP out of a 06 GTO using 100% alcohol in a water injection unit.
His 06 also has a Supercharger.
From Pintony

Tiny,

Alchol is combustable. It really is not the same as injecting straight water. But the GTO has the exact same process I am taking about adding to an early turbo car. The car retards timing (among a lot of other things) to keep the engine right on the edge of detonation for improved performance when peddling.

Jake

Pintony · « **Reply #13 on:** November 28, 2006, 09:41:45 AM »

Quote from: Gaslight on November 28, 2006, 09:31:15 AM

Tony,

Alchol is combustable. It really is not the same as injecting straight water. But the GTO has the exact same process I am taking about adding to an early turbo car. The car retards timing (among a lot of other things) to keep the engine right on the edge of detonation for improved performance when peddling.

Jake

100% alcohol is handy when you can not get enough fuel the normal way.
On a carb. you can run smaller jets for normal street driving and the alcohol burns cooler and only come on when you have boost and need extra fuel.
From Pintonys

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2point3turbo

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turbopinto72

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