PINTO CAR CLUB of AMERICA
Welcome to FordPinto.com, The home of the PCCA => General Help- Ask the Experts... => Topic started by: bob hess on August 20, 2014, 09:26:20 AM
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Hey Guys ,
Any & all help would be greatly appreciated.
I've been a Ford Guy all my life . ( Shelby , mustangs mostly ) . And recently fell in love with what I've seen other guys do with V-8 pintos .
So my question is , I read to beware of " junk " V-8 swaps . How can one tell what is a good swap ?
I'm very busy , so I'm considering having a exp. shop ( Phily, NJ area ) do most of the drive train install for me . I'm shopping for a 79 / 80 runabout now . Any idea of the cost for Labor . ( I know the sky's the limit when it comes to HiPo parts.
Many Thanks ,
Bob
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What are your plans for the car ?
Street / strip ?
Or ?
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What are your plans for the car ?
Street / strip ?
Or ?
For the most part a HOT street car. But one that can be driven , too & from the track. I'll compromise low e t's for good cornering.
Wish list : 351 W 300 - 375 HP . ?? Street Blower on Pumped (Prem.) gas .
Something my Mustangs friends will take seriously .
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V-8 Pinto's corner like a drunk sailor. Most of that heavy V-8 is in front of the cross member. Just keep it going in a straight line and you'll be ok.
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So you are saying , a V-8 pinto can't handle at least as well as a 64-68 V-8 mustang ????
Tons of V-8 swaps in history . Cobra, Tigers , MBG-gt's . Or should I be better off looking in to a HOT V-6. Or is that still TOO heavy ?
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No way a V-8 Pinto will handle as well as a 64 to 70 Mustang. Those cars were killer Trans-Am race cars. Repeat after me (V-8 Pintos will not handle). Sorry but that's the truth.
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Hey Guys , is a V-8 swap really THAT bad an idea ( I'd like it to handle as well as a 64-68 / sorry friends 69-72 Must. DO NOT HANDLE, TOO HEAVY . I had a 69 Mach 1 .)
ANY input on a V-6 swap ( would it handle ? ) Trans -Am tricks ( wider tiers , Fat F & R Sway Bars , lowering ) . Or do I have to go back to my old Mustang Club ?
Any handling tricks you guys have done that made a Big difference , that would help a V-6 , or V-8 swap ????
Sorry , I'm just NOT a fan of 4 bangers !!
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The 72 I built in the early 70s - 302w - would handle a corner as fast as I wanted to take it.
I had up-graded the front springs & had air shocks in the back & 9".
Handled the corners nearly as good as bro's 69 Mach 1 428 SCJ.
He drove my car & says the same.
This 72 I'm working on now has M ll with A/C front springs. Cut down to 3 & 3/4" less coils than 6 full coils though. Stiff. I want to keep the headers off the ground....so not lowered. BOSS 302.
I do not expect this one to corner well.
Diff is a narrowed 9". I can fit 29 x 18.50 x 15s completely under the fender wells: it's a straight line car.
Having said all that....if you want something that will corner, do a real hot V6. Keeps the weight back enough that with suspension mods it will out corner a V8 by a long shot.
No one will build a V8 & expect it to corner well.
Why a blower or a 351w for such low HP ?
A 302w can far exceed that with simple mods ?
My B2 will have about 550 HP (if he ever gets it done).
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Old bigblock Mustangs don't handle worth a darn either.
Ironically, the 2.3T engine weighs only slightly less than a 302. If you want a compact and lightweight V8 that can make a lot of power, you are probably limited to an all-aluminum 302 ($$$) or a GM 4.8-5.3L V8. A 351W weighs at least 50lbs more than a 302.
A small Japanese aluminum V6 might be an option. I like the Toyota 5VZ-FE, but it's an iron block and not that small as V6s go. (DOHC makes the heads very big)
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Bob,
It's all a matter of what you want the car to do, how much time and money you are willing to spend and then following through on it.
Does my Blown V-8 Pinto handle corners well? No because it was not built to corner. It was built to go fast and streight.
This Pavement Pounding Pinto is now retired from drag racing and is street legal for cruise nights and car shows.
Build time, 2 1/2 years
Did it cost a lot of money, yep.
Is it fast, plenty.
Does it stop well, sure.
Is it reliable, yep
Does it get instant attention, yes.
Good gas milage, no.
Lots of maintenance, yes
Long road trips, on the trailer.
So make a list of what you want the car to do, and then you can make decisions was to how to build and so on.
Dick
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Thanks guys , for your feedback . So from what I count , 75-25% say the best I can expect from a ( affordable ) V8 swap , is a car that will handle as poorly as a big block mustang . Being new to the Pinto club ( but life long Ford man ) it is still hard to understand way the ( small V8 swap ) pinto handles sooooo poorly when the Must. II ( factory V8 ) seems to handle fine. They just don't look that much different when you look at them side by side . Or dose the Must. II have handling problems too ?
Or is it all a matter of how far forward the V8 sits in the Pinto Vs. the Must. II ?
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Mustang II is a much heavier car by several hundred pounds. Never seen one at an autocross or road race in the past 40 years.
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MII road racers were heavily modded. Stock ones handled like dog poo.
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MII road racers were heavily modded. Stock ones handled like dog poo.
That's for sure!
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Part of the problem is that a V8 puts a larger portion of the car's weigh on the front tires. A V8 wagon would probably handle a little better than a V8 hatch/sedan.
I hate to say this, but GM's modern all-aluminum pushrod V8s are the lightest and smallest you're going to find short of an old Buick 215 or Rover.
I can tell you this, my '72 is noticeably more nose-heavy with just a 2.3T swap (over the 2.0) and I haven't even driven it yet. Word around the campfire is that a 2.3T is only 10-20lbs lighter than a 5.0 of the same vintage.
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Is that the truth ? that a 2.3 L is only 20 pounds less then a 302 ?
And didn't the 2.3 L come in the 79-80 Pintos ?
SOOOOOOOOOOOOO O , why would a (302) V-8 swap NOT WORK in a 79 - 80 Pinto ?
You can move the battery to the trunk , and there is most of your extra 20 pounds .
Sorry guys . But I'm still not seeing why the v-8 swap would kill the handling so .
That's assuming the 2.3L / 302 , 20 pound thing is true .
PLEASE HELP BEFORE I NEED TO GO BACK THE MY OLD MUSTANG CLUB .
I really do love the little Pinto ( Had one about 10 yrs. ago ). But just can't do the 4 banger thing.
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GOOD HANDLING OR BAD HANDLING WHAT DOES IT MATTER YOU WANT A V8 PINTO BUILD IT.
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He said that a 2.3 TURBO weighs close to a 302, not a n/a 2.3, Pintos never came with a turbo 2.3
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It would take some meticulous weighing on every part of a V8 swap to prove it but my guess is that a 302 with aluminum heads & intake, headers instead of manifolds & a lightweight flywheel could probably come within 50 pounds of a stock 2.3 turbo with steel flywheel, T3/stock manifold & stock intercooler but a stock 2.3 is a lot lighter than the 2.3T.
A little weight would be farther forward but eliminating the battery & a heavy bumper could counteract that. That said, I doubt it could handle as well as an N/A 2.0 or 2.3 would because those are still easily 100 pounds lighter. 100 pounds doesn't sound like much on a 4000 pound car but a Pinto weighs 2400 so that weight combined with it's placement can definitely affect handling.
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VERY GOOD MATH.
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He said that a 2.3 TURBO weighs close to a 302, not a n/a 2.3, Pintos never came with a turbo 2.3
My point was that a 2.3T makes the car a lot more nose-heavy and a 302 weighs more than a 2.3T, therefore _____.
I've seen mention that a 2.3NA is in the 315lb range, but I find that hard to believe. All the iron and steel hung on the exhaust side of a 2.3T does not amount to 135lbs+. Ergo, either a 2.3T is a lot lighter than everyone thinks or a 2.3NA is a lot heavier than 315.
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I can lift & move a 2.3 shortblock myself & carry the head easily. Even dressed I'd be amazed if it's 315 pounds. I'd believe 260-ish
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On April 4 2014, Chopchop weighed his 2.3 complete less power steering pump, clutch disk and pressure plate but with flywheel. It weighed 386 lbs. Look up Chopchop posting to see more.
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If we plug in the above weights . ( non turbo ) 2.3 L engine as a factory weight of very near 400 - 420 lbs. Vs. a 289-302 of 460 lbs. Some are saying the 40 - 60 lbs . is making a big difference in the handling of a 2400 lb. Pinto.
So ,one moves the battery , replaces with alum. : intake , heads , oil pan , all pulleys , light weight flywheel (and if one can find it ) an alum water pump . Now the pricey part :Finding a pro drag racing fiberglass tilt front end .
Any flaw in this ??
Other then the fiberglass front end & the aluminum heads , it should be within a fair budget .
SOOOOOOOOOOOO , unless I missed a big item . Why are so many saying the 302 swap is such a bad idea for a part time drag car that can " handle " the rest of the time . From the # of readers I see , there is a lot of interest in a small V-8 Pinto that can handle .So why hasn't anyone out lined this in print ? As a do able swap ?
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An assumption is being made that a stock Pinto with a 2.3L actually handles well. They don't. My 95 Neon 4 door work car can turn circles around any of my Pintos
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Have to remember the weight of a V8 moves it forward. Everything is. Even the rad goes in front of the rad support.
As far as an aluminum water pump, lots made. If you look in my topic on the white car, you will find the numbers for a short one, that gives an extra 1.5" of clearance.
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I have a V-8 in my 71 and it is brutally fast. I agree with the handling part. It can be downright scary. Now if I had it to do over again, here is what I would do. Find a 305 hp 3.7 v6 from a 2011 or new Mustang and put it in the Pinto. Im not sure of the dimensions but I dont have fenderwells, just tubing to deal with. My 13stang with the v6 and a tune with 4.10 gears rips most 2010 and older stangs.
Randy
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Have to remember the weight of a V8 moves it forward. Everything is. Even the rad goes in front of the rad support.
As far as an aluminum water pump, lots made. If you look in my topic on the white car, you will find the numbers for a short one, that gives an extra 1.5" of clearance.
Can you get us a little closer on that white car water pump post.
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Can you get us a little closer on that white car water pump post.
I think this is the one:
http://www.fordracingpartsdirect.com/STREET_ROD_SHORT_V_BELT_WATER_PUMP_p/m-8501-e351s.htm
Very minimum you have to change the crank pulley as well. I changed all & got them from here:
http://www.cvfracing.com/ford-small-block-pulleys-s/165.htm
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Thanks Reeves1. Do you have a link to the Volvo water pump conversion for a small block Ford engine? Someone posted it on this site several years ago. It gave you even more clearance. Thanks again.
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This post caught my eye on the V-8 swaps, and my reply I have done a few over the years , I have seen some too, a few that were well done and too many that were just a shame for the car they just wasted trying to do so , poor pick of parts used and extreme cutting up the car to make things fit, not the right way , most people complane that the car does not handle well with a V-8 , well not on the wimpy stock front tires you wont , and the front springs too have to be changed , back in 71 when I done my first one the only wheels you could find were wider 13 inch rims and wider tires , it was fair but not great , next one was a 74 wagon, mustang II V8 front springs and 8 inch rear, large sway bars front and back, machined front and rear hubs for five lug pattern so I could use 14 inch mag wheels , looked much better in those large fenders the pinto has , now could hang with corvettes in the corners , now years later I have a V6 pinto , TBI injection and a A4LD installed (looking for gas mileage now) and does very well , they are two light weight bolt in engines that would be light and fill the bill , first would be the cosworth ford 2.9 , to replace the stock 2.8 , 200hp stock, next would be the 4.0 , yes it will all bolt up, have to mod the 2.8 oil pan on one side to make it work, just my two cents , my only remake is don't cut up the car and waste it, do it very neatly , make it look like it can from the factory with a V8 , later guys
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Thanks Reeves1. Do you have a link to the Volvo water pump conversion for a small block Ford engine? Someone posted it on this site several years ago. It gave you even more clearance. Thanks again.
News to me. Never heard about that.
I also looked into electric water pumps. All the ones I found were taller/longer than the short one I posted.
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next one was a 74 wagon, mustang II V8 front springs and 8 inch rear, large sway bars front and back, machined front and rear hubs for five lug pattern so I could use 14 inch mag wheels
Could you give some more details on the front sway bar? I have gotten the impression that most think the V8 swap means you have to remove the sway bar in front.
I have a 74 wagon that I am doing the swap in.
Thanks,
Russ
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no you do not have to remove the sway bar, you have to make a one inch thick spacer out of aluminum for the sway bar clamps to bolt on, it will drop just a tad below the oil pan , which is good to protect the pan from parking lot bumper stops and other low things , use the mustang two bar , it is thicker and from memory almost a inch think , and if you find one see if it has the rear sway bar also, I know some with the 5.0 had them , I do not know if racer walch still has them in stock anymore , if you have a 74 to 76 pinto use the 77 to 78 front and rear bumpers , they will save you some weight , hope this helps
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I think the MII front sway bar needs heating & bending to fit.
My 79 V8 car just had the bar spaced with a stack of washers on longer bolts. I didn't do it but it worked fine
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The Mustang II (V-8) front sway bar is already bent to clear the oil pan with no mods necessary. The bar really hangs down right in front of the oil pan. 2.3 Mustang II don't have this mod and will not clear a V-8 oil pan. There was an export 1" V-8 sway bar sold over the counter. So now all you need is a V-8 Mustang II sway bar. I'm pretty sure ADCO makes one for the V-8 cars.
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ADDCO, jic somebody does a search........ .............. ...
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The water pump is a Snow White, made from an Opel.
It moves the water outlet to the other side
Link
http://www.snowwhiteltd.com/products.html
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Snow-White-Small-Block-Ford-Shorty-Water-Pump-2-Groove-Pulley,58832.html
The two cars I built, I ground the tit down on the water pump to about 1/8 inch.
I used thin head bolts on the pulley with NO lock washers. I use red locktite.
I used V6 pinto radiators in the stock location ans did not cut the core support.
I used an electric pusher fan in front after trimming the rubber bumper piece.
This gave me 3/8 inch clearance between the pulley bolt and the rad.
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Well I got the part of the world right. Opel instead of Volvo. Thanks for the post Hairball.