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Offline russosborne

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using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« on: September 16, 2017, 01:05:29 AM »
I have searched, but didn't find an answer to my questions below. But then I am an idiot, so I may have missed it.  :o

On a 74, so same as MII.

I came across this on the Mustang  II Tech site, but couldn't find any other information on using the Granada calipers. And yes, I am stealing this quote from there.  ;D I can't find my old user id to post there, plus I am not sure how active that place is anymore. And this post was several years old.

"If you are interested in the 5 lug wheels, you can upgrade to Granada brakes, and get 5 lugs at the same time. I did this on my 1976 coupe, that I had before the Cobra. You need the Granada discs with bearings , from a wrecking yard, and the brake mounting brackets. Your Mustang calipers will fit the brackets, or you can use the Granada calipers. You will need larger wheels, but that is the point of the 5 lug upgrade, to go bigger than the 13 inch wheel. I might do this on the Cobra, I have seen a Monarch in the pick-a part yard. It should have the Granada type brakes. You will need to use the Granada brake pads."

Question I have is has anyone done this using all the Granada parts? I've seen several posts where it mentions using an aftermarket mounting bracket and a metric GM caliper, not wanting to do that if I don't have to. The Speedway kit I have planned on getting does use the GM metric calipers. Obviously the author of the post I am quoting didn't mention if he had to make any changes to use the Granada mounts.

Current plan is to get the Speedway motors kit, but if I can do this using all Granada parts that would be more fun. And cheaper most likely. Also easier to remember what to get when replacement time comes around.

Somehow I am doubting this is that easy, or else why are the adapters being sold to use the GM calipers?

Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

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Offline Wittsend

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2017, 11:10:50 AM »
I think part of the problem is that the last Granada manufactured was 38 model years ago in 1980 (the 81-82 Granada's are Fox body).  And they only had a 5 year run. The whole Granada disc brake upgrade was actually big with the Falcon/Comet/Mustang people who wanted discs and 5 bolts.  The past 20 years or so there was hardly a Granada found (and I hardly found a Granada) at a self serve yard that didn't have the pieces already taken.  So, mix together a short 5 year run, with 38-43 year old models and a high desire for the parts and I believe the word is (near) "Unobtanium."  Also at that age the rotors might be too far gone to turn, the bearings shot and calipers corroded.

I just went to Row 52 which searches 103 yards and 110,000+ vehicles. There was not one Granada listed within 500 miles of Phoenix. So, there is your answer right there.  Of course one has to actually have a running car for the brakes to be of any real use.  But it is better to know now (the limited availability of Granada parts) than to expect to find them later.

Offline russosborne

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2017, 01:33:40 AM »
You're probably right. I am so used to seeing Granada's everywhere, but around here at least they are still being driven.

My main interest would be if using the Granada caliper mounting brackets would work. I'd be using new for everything else.

This sounds just like my big brake dilemma for my 72 Ranchero. Easy swap is to use 72 ONLY Ford Thunderbird 12 inch rotors and caliper mounting brackets, the Ranchero calipers are kept. However, finding the mounting brackets is impossible now, and even the rotors are very scarce and extremely expensive ($150 - 200 each, at least) new. One year only stuff. I could change my spindles to the 73-up Torino/Ranchero ones and then there are other options, but I didn't/don't want to do that.
The ideal thing with the 72 Tbird swap is that year is still the 5x4.5 lug pattern. Most other options require going to the 5x5 lug pattern, and I won't do that.

I tend to find out about/want to do these things when it is too late.  :(

For the Ranchero I will most likely just look into better pads while still hoping to find the Tbird stuff at some point. The Pinto is probably going to end up with the Speedway kit, I've been pricing it out individually on different sites and it just makes more sense to buy the complete kit with the hoses included. Not too much more than the individual components and I'd still have to come up with the hoses. With the plan being a 351C engine, I NEED better brakes.  ;D

I just really like to keep things all Ford, but it isn't always possible.

Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

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Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2017, 06:56:13 PM »
My main interest would be if using the Granada caliper mounting brackets would work. I'd be using new for everything else.

I just held one of my GM caliper brackets up to a Granada spindle and they're pretty far away from fitting. They mount in similar ways, but the Granada stuff is all a lot bigger. Maybe the Granada caliper fits in an MII caliper bracket? I don't know.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
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Offline russosborne

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2017, 09:53:10 PM »
I really don't know.
The OP in the thread from the MII site that said he did that only posted 3 times, and all over 3 years ago. He never followed up with how he did it, so I can't be sure if he was correct.
It was the MII spindle with the Granada caliper and bracket in his post.

Sounds like it will just be easier to buy a kit. Twenty years ago it might have been a different story.

Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

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Offline Rawdawg510

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2017, 09:24:29 AM »
I have a question, will the spindle from a Granada fit?? If so can't we just use the entire setup? If not why can't we use the spindle??
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2017, 01:01:48 PM »
I have a question, will the spindle from a Granada fit?? If so can't we just use the entire setup? If not why can't we use the spindle??

You might be able to answer that yourself. I note that you have a '65 Falcon.  My understanding was that the Granada set up was a bolt in for the Mustang/Falcon etc.  So, if you notice a strong similarity between the Falcon and the Pinto spindle (height, ball joints etc.) the possibility increases.  My guess is, "No." It has not come up in the 10 years that I've been here.

From what I see of the Speedway kit being around $250 and you get new "everything" it seems pretty reasonable. And I say that being notorious for being CHEAP.  Too bad there doesn't seem to be 4 X 4.25 kit.  Strange because that is the native bolt pattern for the system it is built off of.

Offline russosborne

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2017, 08:50:03 PM »
Yeah, life would be too simple if the vintage Mustang disk brakes (or even drums) worked on our cars. But I imagine if they did we'd all have heard about it before now. The Granada spindles on the Mustang does require a special adapter for the tie rods unless you use the larger Granada tie rods. (I miss my old 69 Coupe project car  :'(  )

I'm sure the reason there isn't any 4 lug patterns for kits for our cars is that the MII kits are really meant for the street rodders. The fact that they fit our cars (if you have a 74-up) is just a bonus for us.

I was hoping the Granada calipers would work so I didn't have to remember a bunch of different cars when I need new parts. Easier if I could just say "78 Granada" and have the front brakes covered. At my age I will need to keep a list of all the donor cars and what parts they donated.  :o  I intend to have everything replaceable from the local auto store. Biggest reason (other than cost) that the Wilwood and other kits don't interest me. Summit Racing is not a 40 mile trip anymore.  ;D

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2017, 10:34:27 PM »
I don't know about elsewhere, but no parts store here stocks Granada-specific parts. GM calipers, OTOH, were on the shelf at my local O'Relly's. That same store used to stock plenty of nothing until they ran out. I still ordered it all from Rock Auto, though. Cost 70% less and came in two days.

I really, really wanted to keep it all Ford. The steep uphill battle required to do that made me realize that there are very practical reasons for not.

I'll be tackling my front brakes this weekend, so I'll probably have something to report regarding how it went.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
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Offline Rawdawg510

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2017, 12:34:47 AM »
I just looked at speedway website and found these 5 lug rotors that are a direct fit to the stock 74 -80 mustang 2/ pinto spindle. Could it be this simple.

Of course in my case I would have to buy everything separately since I have the 71.(74 spindle,calipers,brake pads,caliper brackets,and hose? And of course the rotors in the link below). Too bad they don't have a direct fit stock size rotor for my car. I already have disc up front but there is no wheel selection for 4 lug. Hope this helps. It's getting kind of late I will look more into pricing and availability for the 74 stuff tomorrow.


https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Mustang-II-Disc-Brake-Rotor-5-on-4-1-2-Inch,1964.html
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2017, 11:29:48 AM »
Given that I have two sets of Pinto/Mustang II Rallye wheels, a set of classic Cosmic wheels, a set of Mustang SSP lookalike wheels and lastly a set of 90's alloy wheels - all in the 4 X 4.25 bolt, the 5 bolt offerings don't interest me.  The fact that all these wheels match the bolt pattern of my Sunbeam Tiger... makes the 5 bolt even less so.

I wonder if Speedway will do a special drilled set for not too much more?  My understanding is that the 108mm bolt pattern is very close.  Maybe there is something in that size that works for those desiring to retain the 4 X 4.25 pattern.  I believe there is a rear disc conversion for the Tiger that used Fiat discs.

Offline dick1172762

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2017, 05:22:06 PM »
American wheels has a 15 X 7 sloted mag in the 4 x 41/4 bolt pattern. Very nice wheels. They also make the same wheel in the 5 X 41/2 bolt pattern.
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Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2017, 11:00:55 AM »
A Pinto/MII/Granada rotor with a 5 x 4.25" circle (if they exist, haven't looked) might have the possibility of being redrilled. That will leave about 0.150-0.165" between two close holes.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2017, 11:21:53 AM »
All the 5 stud rotors that I have seen are 4.5 (ford) and 4.75 (Chevrolet). Those bolt patterns fit 99% of the street rod cars.
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2017, 04:52:31 PM »
Given that I have two sets of Pinto/Mustang II Rallye wheels, a set of classic Cosmic wheels, a set of Mustang SSP lookalike wheels and lastly a set of 90's alloy wheels - all in the 4 X 4.25 bolt, the 5 bolt offerings don't interest me.  The fact that all these wheels match the bolt pattern of my Sunbeam Tiger... makes the 5 bolt even less so.

I wonder if Speedway will do a special drilled set for not too much more?  My understanding is that the 108mm bolt pattern is very close.  Maybe there is something in that size that works for those desiring to retain the 4 X 4.25 pattern.  I believe there is a rear disc conversion for the Tiger that used Fiat discs.
   Wheels and rotors are not the problem anymore! Tires or the lack of 13" tires are the big problem now days. I bought the last set of 205/60/13 tires I could find in the US of A. I have read that 13" tires are still made in Mexico and England but getting them here is an high $$$$ problem. Any body out there have an answer?
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2017, 05:19:11 PM »
Try  http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/library/library.htm   look at ( various wheel bolt patterns.) It's old but still shows what to look far in the late 80's before all went to FWD.
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Offline Pintosopher

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2017, 05:30:42 PM »
   Wheels and rotors are not the problem anymore! Tires or the lack of 13" tires are the big problem now days. I bought the last set of 205/60/13 tires I could find in the US of A. I have read that 13" tires are still made in Mexico and England but getting them here is an high $$$$ problem. Any body out there have an answer?
I have a used set of  vintage 205/60 -13 Yokohama 001R that I bought in 1988, some miles of Solo 2 . I took em off to run slicks in E/Prepared. I'm sure they are Waaaay hard now. Bagged since summer '88, but was going to use for street car.. Ahh!!!  good intentions and the road to Hell You know ;D
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Offline russosborne

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2017, 01:23:10 AM »
I just looked at speedway website and found these 5 lug rotors that are a direct fit to the stock 74 -80 mustang 2/ pinto spindle. Could it be this simple.

Of course in my case I would have to buy everything separately since I have the 71.(74 spindle,calipers,brake pads,caliper brackets,and hose? And of course the rotors in the link below). Too bad they don't have a direct fit stock size rotor for my car. I already have disc up front but there is no wheel selection for 4 lug. Hope this helps. It's getting kind of late I will look more into pricing and availability for the 74 stuff tomorrow.


https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Mustang-II-Disc-Brake-Rotor-5-on-4-1-2-Inch,1964.html

Nope, not that simple for you, unfortunately. Early Pinto (71-73) and the Mustang II/later Pinto front suspension is not a bolt on swap. There have been several  posts on here about it. Simplest way is to swap the crossmembers so you can use the MII stuff, but even then I've heard there are issues. There has been some mention of modifying the newer spindles, but it just isn't an easy thing to do. One way to do it is to buy a 74 Pinto and convert the sheet metal over to the earlier stuff, but you still end up having to do a ton of work.

those speedway motor rotors are good for those of us with the 74 and up cars. I was planning on using them to just convert to the 5 lug as that is a stupid cheap and easy way to do it, but then I talked myself into needing larger brakes with my planned engine. Some people don't see the need, but I believe in overkill. Or better safe than sorry. 

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

Offline Rawdawg510

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2017, 07:27:31 PM »
I found this thread and Dick1172762 said that you can use the spindle/caliper/brackets with ball joint upgrades. can anyone please confirm this??

http://www.fordpinto.com/pinto-faq/front-disc-brakes-(4-5-lug)/
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2017, 09:00:56 AM »
What I should have also said was this was only on race cars and not cars driven on city streets. By using the entire spindle / caliper / rotor / assy /  you will end up with the upper control arm at an greater angle than stock and while ok on a race track, who knows if used on the street. Upper ball joint could make a clearance problem with the wheels or tires, maybe both. Sorry!
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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2017, 09:48:53 AM »
Recently we had an interesting discussion over on my Sunbeam Tiger side of life.  It regarded the upgrading of the stock Tiger brakes.  The argument stemmed around the fact that there are really two elements involved in braking. The brakes and the tires.  The point was presented that if the brakes could be made to lock up that the tires became the limiting factor in stopping the car. Hence, improving the brakes benefited nothing.  Where as repeated braking causes fade and thus an upgrade compensated for the generated heat in typical street applications it was not likely to be a problem.

If all that were true (I'm not taking either side, just presenting the points made) what the average driver really needs to better brake feel rather that overall braking capability. And that comes about with a proper cylinder diameter and booster.  I find it interesting that my daily driver (2000 Mazda Protege) seemingly has brakes no bigger than the Pinto and is likely in a similar weight category, if not heavier than the Pinto.  Yet it is the best stopping car I have ever owned. In that regard it is significantly better than my wife's 2010 Civic.

Question, were any of the early Pinto's fitted with boosted brakes?  I'll be the first to admit that my non-boosted '73 (disc front) brake seem very marginal. But, I'm wondering if the lack of a booster is the greater problem?

Offline dick1172762

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2017, 11:21:40 AM »
On 74 and up Pintos, power brakes were fitted to some Pintos / V8 Mustang II / and maybe 6 cylinder Pintos and Mustang II. I've hade 16 Pintos and not one of them had power brakes. Back in the 70's I always though that the power brakes were like lipstick on a pig. I raced 70's and 80's Pinto with no problems at all. The trick was getting the right pads. Once done, you had very good brakes. 74/80 Pintos had much better brakes than the 71/73 models. Trick was the right pads and good brake cooling on the track. Brake fluid was always Castrol LMA that never caused brake problems. Fluid was cheap at Auto Zone.
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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2017, 12:19:40 PM »
What I should have also said was this was only on race cars and not cars driven on city streets. By using the entire spindle / caliper / rotor / assy /  you will end up with the upper control arm at an greater angle than stock and while ok on a race track, who knows if used on the street. Upper ball joint could make a clearance problem with the wheels or tires, maybe both. Sorry!

I am planning on going with 17 inch wheels, im not sure if Ill run into this problem?
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2017, 05:35:23 PM »
I am planning on going with 17 inch wheels, im not sure if Ill run into this problem?

Fitment is all about clearances at the suspension and fender openings. You can have a tall 14", 75 series tire and have as much an issue as a 17" tire with a 40 (or less) series tire.  The problem that you will have with the latter is that Dick and I will groan about the wagon wheel sized rim with the forklift like aspect ratio tires.  LOL

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2017, 08:35:44 PM »
Fitment is all about clearances at the suspension and fender openings. You can have a tall 14", 75 series tire and have as much an issue as a 17" tire with a 40 (or less) series tire.  The problem that you will have with the latter is that Dick and I will groan about the wagon wheel sized rim with the forklift like aspect ratio tires.  LOL
Although I can see the relativity of the brake/lug pattern dilemma, I too will groan at anything over 15 inch.  :-[ When will the folks offer the 13" tires affordably from across the Pond?  A good friend even re-arched the front fenders on his Sunbeam Tiger to clear 13X8 3 piece Revolution wheels with chunky tires and to miss the tie rod knuckle for Solo 2 street prepared back in the 80's. The Back was going to 13X10's and a mild fender flare roll.
 Even my 72 has the inner fender liner seam rolled back to clear my tires that I used on the street...
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2017, 10:34:49 AM »
My Tiger came with a set of somewhat rare 13" Cosmic wheels.  There is but ONE Harrington Tiger (fastback) and that car is adorned with those wheels. So, I'd like to use them. A quick search brought up some 205-60-13" so they are still available. But they are Federal Formoza's and the like in the $45-$60 range (less shipping). Otherwise it is $150+ for autocross tires!


 I have an odd lot collection of 13" tires.  Sumitumo HTR 200's (2- 205-60-13", 3 - 175-70-13") and in the Federal Formoza (3- 205-60-13"). I've picked them up for right about $10 ea. but being used and a perishable item my keeping them out of the sun and slathering them liberally with Armour All only does so good.


The Pinto has a bit more of a generous wheel well to accommodate a larger tire but I agree on the 15" wheel.  Maybe it is just our generation but the too large wheel and the too short aspect ratio just doesn't look right on older cars.  It is why I don't like a lot of the Foose/Overhaul'n cars. As far as the Tiger's go I still think the 13" wheels look best. It is all about proportion.   There is a guy here with a red Pinto that has the Ford factory steel 15" SSP wheels. I really liked the look but those wheels are RARE. And I found out he had to run a lot of spacer to get them to look right.  I found a 14" look a like version but on the Pinto (215-60-14") the offset was terrible and I know now the reason for the spacers.  Good news is they fit the Tiger well. Like I said it is all about proportion.

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2017, 01:17:46 PM »
Best way to store old tires is inside a large black trash bag, tightly closed, in a cool basement, away from any kind of electric motor.
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2017, 01:44:15 PM »
Take a look at  http://www.hotrodhotline.com   several Sunbeam's for sale from $4895 to $116000. Enjoy!
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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2017, 03:48:03 PM »
Hummm..., I only found one Alpine and no Tigers.  And at $10K it was more than three times what I paid for the Tiger ($3,500) back in 2000. Could never afford one today. My near basket case would probable sell for $20K-$25K.  On jackstands for almost 18 years now. My mid-life crisis car has become my retirement car and at the speed it is going it way well be come my "you have cancer, what do you want to accomplish before you die car" (hopefully not anytime soon).

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Re: using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2017, 04:43:33 PM »
Look again. There is a chart down the page that list 99% of all makes. There is 3 tigers shown at $74000  / $90000 / $116000.
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