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Author Topic: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing  (Read 12275 times)

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Offline fh4ever

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Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« on: April 06, 2014, 09:02:29 AM »
hi all,
I am fairly new here to this site.  I am looking for some help on the T9 conversion to get rid of the Pinto 2.3liter 4 speed. I searched thru the forums here and found some info on the type 9 transmission mated to the 2.0 bellhousing where as the input is too long and either a spacer is made or the shaft is cut off some.  I have a 2.3 engine and bellhousing and wonder if the t-9 is too long for it. Is the 2.0 bellhousing shorter than the 2.3?  Also I found some information elsewhere that the scorpio  T-9 has longer input shaft than the sierra T9. Can anyone confirm?  I also have seen on the site where all stock pinto clutch parts are used except the throwout bearing...cant seem to find this in the forum again...can this be confirmed.  Does the T9 use the pinto driveshaft yoke?   not worried about cutting driveshafts right now, just need to know if the yoke spline is the same.   And there was something mentioned about drilling a hole in the bellhousing to clear something on the T9 transmission.. .anyone know what this could be?
 Am I missing anything else required?
thanks all

Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2014, 09:21:03 AM »
I can say for sure that 2.0 & 2.3 bellhousings are the same depth & the 4 speeds interchange. The only difference is the upper 2 bolts on the bellhousing.
 
I don't know the details either but I do remember reading that the input shaft needs shortened a bit on a T9 which is simple to do with a cut off wheel.
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Offline 71HANTO

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2014, 09:47:26 AM »
I assume you don't have the T-9 yet? There are different ones for different cars as you mentioned. Some with hydraulic clutch bells that won't work with the Pinto front cross member without undesirable mods. The Merkur XR4TI trans came behind the 2.3 (turbo) and has the correct input shaft length for your application but the ones I've seen have the hydraulic bell. Some of the T-9s (like the one I own) have a locating protrusion so it won't directly mate up to a Pinto 2.3 cable clutch bell without cutting a large chunk out of the back of the bell making for a weak structure. Most on this forum go with the stronger T-5 which is much easier to find. I did this with my street Pinto with a Camaro tail end so I don't need to cut the trans tunnel but you will need to mod the trans mounting and the speedo is an issue but solvable.

71HANTO
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Offline 71HANTO

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2014, 02:20:20 PM »
I did want to add that unless you have a modified engine (turbo, hot cam and header, etc.) or plan one, a 5 speed will do you little good. To take advantage of one you need at least 3.40 gears or better in the back. A stock 2.3 with stock gears in back (2.79 or 3.00) will not be able to pull 5th gear unless it is on dead flat ground with a strong tail wind. If you are looking for better gas mileage then just add taller tires in the back of what you have. If your 4 speed is sloppy like having trouble finding the gears and/or it goes into reverse without you having to push the stick down and over, there are easy (and cheap) fixes without even taking the trans out.

71HANTO
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Offline fh4ever

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2014, 02:51:26 PM »
thanks for the feedback....I did fail to mention this is not going into a pinto....I have a little English ford with a 2.3 "stuffed" in it....and being the car is so narrow,the T9 is a better choice for this car...the transmission tunnel is already cut out and the new tunnel (not made yet) already pushes the gas pedal towards the brake pedal...a T5 is so much wider that the gas pedal would have to go to the left even more intruding in the brake pedal path.  So since the T9 is the exact same size, it will work with out much better and not require more tunnel cutting.  The crossmember is not an issue and nor is the driveshaft.  but I do want to keep the cable clutch.   You are correct I do not have a T9 yet but I have started looking. 
the rear axle is the English axle and has 4.1 ratio...this is why I want the overdrive.
I did see the shifter rail shaft on the pinto 4 speed that requires a hole in the back of the bellhousing... does the T9 have this same set up ?
with this new information, any more feedback? 
thanks guys....I am still fond of the pintos even though this is not going into one !!!

Offline 71HANTO

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2014, 03:19:18 PM »
Now I get the picture. I assume you are putting it into an Anglia or a Popular. The T-9 is basically a Pinto (FOG) transmission with a 5th gear added off the back so the shifter rail does goes through a hole in front like the 4 speed. The irony is that my race pinto has an English Ford engine (Lotus Cortina) in it. I mated a T-9 (1988 Ford of Germany) to a 2.0 bell (1971 Ford of American) to a 1558cc engine (1966 Ford of England) and had to modify much more than hopefully you will need to do to make it work. The 3.90 or 4.11 gears you have in the back should work good with the 5 speed especially in a light car.

This should help:

http://www.merkurmidwest.com/catalog/i771.html

71HANTO
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Offline fh4ever

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2014, 04:47:23 PM »
not an Anglia but a thames.  but just about the same thing.  I may need to contact the people at the link you sent..since they are the experts, but take a look at this link....
http://www.scimitarweb.co.uk/sgwrs/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17647
the last drawing #IND-277-E has the exact same shaft measurements as my pinto 4 speed...it should be a direct bolt in...no sawing ,  the title block in the drawing says it is sierra based.   I thought the merkur was sierra based....right or wrong? 

The drawing at the top #IND-280 seems to be the T9 with the long shaft that everyone uses... and it is scorpio based.   
If you look at the drawing IND -227-E at the dimension 142.9 (from end of spline to face of gearbox), this is the same as the pinto, but if you look at the first drawing IND-280, this distance is 154.5...a difference of 11.6 longer.  This means the splines pass further thru the disk by 11.6mm farther towards the engine than  the pinto 4 speed does.  I think there is enough space between the disk hub and the pilot bearing.   
So, is anyone using the Sierra based T9 shown in the drawing IND-277-E ? or is this t9 not in states? The guys at merkurmidwest may know but lets see if any readers have an idea. 
thanks everyone

Offline fh4ever

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2014, 12:13:21 PM »
hey 71hanto...or anyone else...
my junkyard is telling me the input splines are way different on the T9 compared to the pinto 4 speed, about half as many.  Did you run into this ?  I thought we could use the pinto clutch disk in this T9 conversion. 

Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2014, 01:03:26 PM »
If it needs a 10 spline disc try one for an 87 Mustang 2.3 non-turbo
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Offline 71HANTO

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2014, 02:54:10 PM »
hey 71hanto...or anyone else...
my junkyard is telling me the input splines are way different on the T9 compared to the pinto 4 speed, about half as many.  Did you run into this ?  I thought we could use the pinto clutch disk in this T9 conversion.


The T-9s have the 1"X 23 spline input shaft, same as the 2.0 and 2.3 Pinto 4 speeds. The 1.6L Pinto 4 speed uses a 20 spline. Your junkyard guy must be confusing the T-9 with the T-5 that uses the 10 spline. I have both transmissions. Check out the link above to the T-9s listed for sale. Both pictured are 23 spine. In the smallest of chances that the T-9 at the junk yard IS a 10 spine (it won't be), discs are dirt cheap anyway.


71HANTO
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Offline PintoMan1

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2014, 05:29:03 PM »
I have to ask one question.  will the screw in type shifter from the pinto trans work in the t-9 trans or will one have to use the t-9 type shifter? thanks!
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Offline 71HANTO

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2014, 07:17:47 PM »
I have to ask one question.  will the screw in type shifter from the pinto trans work in the t-9 trans or will one have to use the t-9 type shifter? thanks!

Pintoman1,

You will need to use the T-9 3 bolt shifter.

71HANTO

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Offline 82expghost

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2014, 11:39:36 PM »
the bell housings are different depth, use the bell housing that comes with t9 (xr4ti), the pintos bell housing is slightly deeper by 1/2 inch, you will have to modify the pinto bell housing to work on t9, where the shift rod pokes out in the front will need to be drilled slightly bigger  and a quarter inch taken out of the input shaft, or you will get a horendis squeeling from the input bearing, clutches are identical, luk part numbers interchange from 77 pinto to 86 merkur, and they use the same rear tail seals and output shafts, and a certain year volvo left motor mount threds into bottom of tailshaft for a trans mount.
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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2014, 06:49:31 AM »
71hanto, thank you for the info. I have a chance to get a t-9 and was hoping I could use the hurst shifter I have for the pinto. and the trans I seen does not have a shifter.
may have to scratch that idea.
1973 pinto runabout

Offline PintoMan1

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2014, 09:19:00 PM »
i have another question guys. is it possible to use the tail shaft from the pinto trans on the t-9 gear box? or is this to much trouble?   thanks for any input!!
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Offline 82expghost

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2014, 04:37:35 AM »
wont work, internals are different for that 5 gear addition
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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2014, 07:12:13 PM »
that's what I was afraid of. was really hoping to add a 5th gear!
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Offline 82expghost

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2014, 11:55:50 PM »
if you have the t9 with the t9 bellhousing, the swap is a swap, only thing i had to buy was the volvo left motor mount for the trans mount, and weld the throw out bearing arm where the cable goes and redrill to make smaller, and grind off the tip of the input shaft till its flush with the bell housing, and bend the shifter so that it points to the driver
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Offline fh4ever

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2014, 08:12:28 PM »
hi, I just got my type 9 bolted to the '74 pinto 2.3.  Here are the details...I used an '86 Merkur T9 and it does not have the external bearing under the input shaft (I am told the 85 and 86 do not while the 87-on do have the external bearing.  The input shaft is about 1/2 inch longer in all places..the sleeve, the spline and the pilot.  Not sure which one bottomed out with the pinto bellhousing, but it did.  The merkur bellhousing is 1/2 longer than the pinto which compensated for the longer input shaft.   No shaft shortening required. It worked perfectly.  The Merkur bellhousing I used has the cut out for the external bearing although not needed for the 86 tranny.  The length of the t9 tranny is also about 1/2 inch longer measured from the front of the gearbox to the end of the tailhousing.  The throwout lever from the Type 9 had to be used as well as the T9 throwout bearing.  The slot for the cable on the t9 throwout arm had to welded up and recut for the pinto cable.  The t9 pivot ball was shorter and a washer under it fixed that.   I was able to re-use the Pinto flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate.  The pinto 2.3 has extra pair of bolt holes above the pinto bellhousing  and these were used on the merkur bellhousing as it is taller. 
Keep in mind this did not go into a Pinto, it is an Thames (Anglia) with the 2.3 pinto.  One more thing..the pinto tranny mount bolts right to the t9 but it is located further back.  It wasn't an issue because I had to make a tranny crossmember anyway.
Now, if i knew how to post pics....
hope this helps someone

Offline 82expghost

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2014, 10:26:28 PM »
it might be an engine tranny year difference, i used the merkur bell and the input was still a 1/4 to long, my motor was a 77 tho, hmmm somthing to look into with 2.3 cranks pilots. probibly sombody on here might know the reasons for this
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Offline fh4ever

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2014, 07:46:20 AM »
interesting... there are differences in the T9 input shaft length --see http://www.scimitarweb.co.uk/sgwrs/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17647  but I was told only one length was used in the Merkur XR4TI in the USA. ....maybe not quite true?
I do have a bad bearing...know of sources in the US for parts for the T9? Anyone here had a T9 apart?  any special tools ?  any special clearances? 

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2014, 04:40:16 PM »
quafe still makes all the parts for the t9 trannys, and depending how deep your pocket goes, 1500 shipped from Europe you can get a new t9 with the updated parts to make it more bullet proof. go to ebay.co.uk and type in type 9 gearbox, they even make full aluminum cases for them too. the hard part is figuring what you want your gear ratio to be
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Offline fh4ever

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2014, 05:58:46 PM »
a little more info on the type 9....I got this from Vintage Performance Developments website...they say:
Three different input shaft lengths are available
Short  input = 177 mm = 6.97 inches
Merkur input = 194mm = 7.625
Scorpio input = 208mm = 8.19

Offline 80_2.3_ESS

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2014, 11:14:15 AM »
Maybe I am missing something, but why not go with a T5 from a 2.3l Mustang? Just curious
Nick in CT

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Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2014, 11:51:00 AM »
Because a T9 doesn't require cutting the tunnel, modifying the middle crossmember to clear a clutch cable, or shortening the driveshaft.

I'm not positive a T5 requires shortening the driveshaft, but I have read reports that it doesn't and that it does.

A Camaro T5 rear section puts the shifter back in the stock Pinto location, but presents a number of other hurdles.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Offline 80_2.3_ESS

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2014, 12:02:42 PM »
Because a T9 doesn't require cutting the tunnel, modifying the middle crossmember to clear a clutch cable, or shortening the driveshaft.

I'm not positive a T5 requires shortening the driveshaft, but I have read reports that it doesn't and that it does.

A Camaro T5 rear section puts the shifter back in the stock Pinto location, but presents a number of other hurdles.

Gotcha. Yes, on my T5 swap, I had to cut the tunnel to fit the shifter. Clutch Cable was re-routed over the cross-member with a simple bracket, so I did not have to modify the cross-member.

I used a bell-housing and T5 from a 4-cylinder mustang. This DID require a shorter drive-shaft. I replaced the drive-shaft with a Ford Racing aluminum drive-shaft (see link below). I had to replace the rear u-joint / plate for the 8.8 with an adapter u-joint to fit the 8" Ford yoke.

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=1170
Nick in CT

1980 2.3L Pinto ESS

Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2014, 06:53:53 PM »
The numbers for driveshaft length I have been seeing are 45.5" for T5 swaps vs. 47" for stock. That seems to be supported by your using a 45.5" Ford Racing one. (On a side note, does anyone remember when those driveshafts were ~$180?)

Pintos have smaller 1310 u-joints stock, right? I have 1310/1330 hybrid u-joints in my Mustang, so nothing unfamiliar there.
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Offline fh4ever

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2014, 01:43:38 PM »
latest update... I had a bad bearing in my T9 so I decided to have it rebuilt.  One shop did not want to touch it .  Another shop that I had dealt with before was familiar with the T9s  and was willing to rebuild it.  He said parts were a little difficult to get but were still available.   I got the rebuilt T9 back in the Anglia and took it out for a spin.  It is working great and it gives me a few more mph's.  The shop said only the turbo Merkurs had troubles with the T9 but a normally aspirated 2.3 should do just fine.   

Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: Type 9 on a 2.3 bellhousing
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2014, 08:44:09 PM »
Even the Merks didn't really have trouble with the T9, it just isn't as strong as a T5 and everyone thinks they are inferior because of it. Kind of like hotrodders thinking the 8" rear is weak and undesirable.

A T9 will tolerate more power in a lighter chassis too, especially with steeper gears and/or shorter tires.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.