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Welcome to FordPinto.com, The home of the PCCA => General Help- Ask the Experts... => Topic started by: AndrewG on August 11, 2014, 11:50:02 AM
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My shifter bushing recently went bad and it was impossible to remove the nylon dome to replace the bushing. (Seems that someone a while back glued it in place making it impossible to remove). I figured I would remove the trans so it could be worked on properly.
Can someone help me identify the trans based on the tag information. I'm hoping to find parts for the trans and would like to know what I've got.
Here is the tag info
80 ET CA
FOG 9J O5G
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It's a FOG. I "think" that stands for Ford of Germany. It's the same trans for 74-80 Pintos according to the link below. 70-73 have a different rebuild kit.
It came with other Fords of that era that had 4 cyl engines.
This site has a little bit of info on it, there might be better ones.
http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog/manual_transmission_overhaul_kits/ford_fog_rwd.html (http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog/manual_transmission_overhaul_kits/ford_fog_rwd.html)
HTH,
Russ
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It's a FOG. I "think" that stands for Ford of Germany. It's the same trans for 74-80 Pintos according to the link below. 70-73 have a different rebuild kit.
It came with other Fords of that era that had 4 cyl engines.
This site has a little bit of info on it, there might be better ones.
http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog/manual_transmission_overhaul_kits/ford_fog_rwd.html (http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog/manual_transmission_overhaul_kits/ford_fog_rwd.html)
HTH,
Russ
Hi Russ,
Thanks for the info. I checked their site. Good information.
I'm hoping I can get the shifter bushing and nylon dome above the bushing.
BTW - I have the 2.3 l engine.
Andrew
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BTW - I have the 2.3 l engine.
Andrew
All V6 Pintos were automatic unless someone put the MII V6 trans in a Pinto.
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All V6 Pintos were automatic unless someone put the MII V6 trans in a Pinto.
That's useful information. Thanks.
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That's useful information. Thanks.
Anytime ;) Ford feared the V6/4-speed Pinto would have been as fast as the MII/V8 at the time so they saddled them with power robbing automatics.
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The 80 ET may well describe it too, some listings used that and the 80 is for the year model, others for same like 79 ET for '79 model, 76 ET for '76, etc. Same trans otherwise.
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Have any of you here worked on this transmission?
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Andrew
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I had one apart long enough to pronounce it a tinkertoy. Watch for where the tailshaft stub enters the input shaft back end, the bearing register there can be torn up if lube ran low in trans, as can countershaft bearings.
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I had one apart long enough to pronounce it a tinkertoy. Watch for where the tailshaft stub enters the input shaft back end, the bearing register there can be torn up if lube ran low in trans, as can countershaft bearings.
It is quite simple, but gets the job done. (The car is only 1800 lbs.).
The shifter bushing was torn up, and I'm having a hard time removing the nylon dome above the shifter. Seems that someone in the past glued it down. Is there another trans that would be a good replacement for this one? (I keep hearing about T5's, but I'm not sure if that is appropriate for this car).
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I finally got the shifter out by cutting the nylon dome off. Once I got the shifter out I was able to see what the problem was......broke n fork on the shifter.
Now I need to find a replacement.
Any ideas on where to find a shifter for a 1980 pinto RAD 4 spd tranny?
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It's not a RAD tranie! It's a FOG tranie. NO PARTS will interchange.
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It's not a RAD tranie! It's a FOG tranie. NO PARTS will interchange.
Thanks for the reply. Yes, I know it's a FOG (Ford of Germany), but I was told by a buddy of mine who has the same car out west, that I should be asking around for a 1980 Pinto RAD 4 spd, due to the style of shifter. We have the one with the nylon dome that holds the shifter, not the three bolt type.
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Nylon dome is a FOG tranie.
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Nylon dome is a FOG tranie.
OK. And where can I get parts for the shifter?
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I may have a spare shifter. I will try to dig into my parts tomorrow and see.
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I may have a spare shifter. I will try to dig into my parts tomorrow and see.
Thank you
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Definitely not RAD or RAN or RUG or RAIL trans, where do they get all these weird names???
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Is the "rail" the SROD?
I have a Transtar here in Boise, ID that gets me parts for my FOG, the only thing they cannot get me is new synchros, which is a contributing factor to why I plan to go T5 or T9. Thinking more along the lines of T5, so that when the V8 time comes along, I will just need a bell and fork to make things work.
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I have a Transtar here in Boise, ID that gets me parts for my FOG,
What is Transtar?
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http://www.transtar1.com/ (http://www.transtar1.com/)
Transmission parts place.
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http://www.transtar1.com/ (http://www.transtar1.com/)
Transmission parts place.
Thanks for the info.
Looks like we have one close by in Edison NJ.
How's the experience with the ordering process and parts availability for older cars?
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I've never used them, just did a quick Google search and found them.
Hopefully Dave will chime in since he has.
Russ
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Here's a photo of the elusive shifter parts that I need.
1st photo shows shifter, plastic dome and tabbed lock nut.
2nd photo shows plastic shifter bushing.
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Transtar here in Dallas is great, they serve walk-in public just like the business clients and parts are much cheaper since they supply all the trans repair shops. I made a killing buying ATX stuff there.
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Here are a couple threads on sourcing the bushing shown in the last photo.
http://www.fordpinto.com/parts-resources-here-is-where-you-can-find-this-or-that/manual-shifter-bushing-(saddle)/msg137343/#msg137343
http://www.fordpinto.com/general-help/4-speed-shifter-21725/msg132857/#msg132857
As for the shifter, the craiglist ad below shows a shifter in one of the photos. Your shifter shown at the start of this thread seems longer than any Pinto shifter that I have seen (maybe a custom).
http://fortmyers.craigslist.org/lee/pts/4606213721.html
In addition to a want ad here, you might check ebay, craiglist in your area, and the mini stock site: http://www.4m.net/forumdisplay.php?35-Mini-Stocks
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Thanks everyone for the advice and links.
I will most likely get the bushing from Burton Power, so thanks for that recommendation .
Called the local junkyard yesterday and they did a search on 1980 Pinto trans. Found 2 yards in MA that have one. One junkyard said the trans was on the shelf, but the shifter parts were missing. The other place told me they would need to go out to the yard to see if it had the needed parts, and would call me back in a few days. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
Thanks again for all the help. I'll keep you all posted.
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I got myself a shop manual which has been helpful in working on the trans.
Can someone help me understand the directions (see attached). I was able to drive the roll pin through the selector lever arm, and remove the shift rail, so I'm up to step #11.
I'm having trouble understanding steps #12 through #17, (still can't separate the gearbox from the tail housing.)
Thank you
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Ok, just to clarify I have never worked on a FOG trans, and it has been many years since I worked on any. But the following is pretty much basic shop class stuff. I have no clue how mechanically inclined you are, so I am going with the basics, no offense meant if you know this stuff already.
For step 11, make sure you have removed all the bolts and everything from the previous steps. I don't have a clue how many bolts there are, so I can't help you there. Sometimes you may find one that is hidden under grease. Believe me, this happens. At least to me.
Once you are sure they are all removed, tap the housing with a plastic or rubber mallet. You may need to get physical with it, if it hasn't been apart for almost 40 years it will act like it is glued together. Just do not use anything metal to hit with. Even though you are going to want to. And try to hit on the more solid areas (where there is the most meat). This is really one of those easier to show you than to explain things. Best bet is to tap around the mating surface, going around and tapping until you hear/feel it pop loose. Don't use anything to try to pry it apart. You don't want to risk marring the mating surfaces.
That should enable you to rotate the housing as per step 12. Again, I don't have a clue just how far the manual wants you to rotate it. I am hoping there are pictures with it.
Step 13 wants you to use a piece of steel rod with just a slightly smaller diameter than the counter shaft. Believe me, you do not want those needle rollers getting loose. They roll any and everywhere. We had to rebuild 3 speed manual trans in auto shop when I took it in '76(gee, I am really old) and those stupid things were a royal pain.
If you get this far maybe the rest will be a bit more obvious. If not then let us know. Remember, Ford wrote those manuals for mechanics in their dealer shops, not for us hobbyists. So what they think may have been perfectly obvious to the mechanics is not to us.
HTH some,
Russ
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Russ, thanks so much for the explanation. You're right about wanting to hit or pry it loose with something metal. I might have been a bit tough with this thing and done just that. At this point I would looks to drop kick it across the driveway.
Well, I got the housing loose and it moves about 1/2 " away from the gearbox. I can spin it around but that's it. (I didn't see any other bolts hidden under greese. That was a good point, thanks). I am mechanical, but unfortunately there are few photos in the manual so it's hard since I never worked on a trans before.
AJ
PS - you're not old because I'm the same age as you.
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I think i figured out step #12, it says to "rotate the extension housing until the end of the countershaft is opposite the cutaway in the extension housing flange".
From the front of the gearbox I can see a circular space below the input shaft that seems to be the front end of the countershaft rod. I think I am supposed to hit it from the front so that the shaft exits out the back near the housing. The housing should be turned to allow this shaft to exit. In order to keep the needle rollers in place, the rod used to remove the countershaft should be left in place so that it holds these rollers. (Thanks for the warning on the needle rollers).
Can you guys let me know if I'm on the right track. I don't want to hit anything until I know for sure that I'm supposed to.
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That was is. The trans are now apart. The needle rollers were difficult to keep intake, but I know how they go back so it's no big deal. I still need to find a plastic dome and tabbed lock nut somewhere, but at least I'm making progress.
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Glad you got it apart, hopefully you can find the parts you need.
Russ
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Glad you got it apart, hopefully you can find the parts you need.
Russ
Thanks for your support. I'll keep you up to date on my progress.
Hopefully I'll find the parts soon.
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You have done all the hard stuff.
This is from the "been there-done that" department.
Do not reassemble the trans without purchasing NEW needle bearings & a NEW countershaft.
Do not reassemble the trans without NEW brass syncro rings & the wire 'springs that go with them.
DO replace all the input shaft & mainshaft bearings.
I don't know the intended use of the car BUT; the 2nd gear sychro brass & the 2nd gear countershaft gear are a definite weakpoint with these transmissions of used hard.
The countershaft & needles are weak also.
DO use a NEW input shaft bearing & take a close look at the input shaft itself (where it enters the pilot bearing @ the crank)
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Thank you for that advice.
Input shaft is good, but that brass syncro looked bad and one of it's springs had broken. One of the dogs was at the bottom of the case.
The car was used very little and had few miles on it. I don't intend to put many more miles on it.
Thanks for the post. I will replace the parts you recommended.
Any ideas regarding where to get those parts?
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Sorry I disappeared there, last week was crazy for work.
Shifter fork bushing is the same as the Merkur T9 one. Here is a source:
http://merkurmidwest.com/catalog/i551.html
Like amc49, I haven't had any issues with Transtar and they get parts in pretty quickly. They have a list of suppliers that can get harder to find and or good spec used parts as well.
I will email you back about that shifter today as well, if you are still interested in trying something out without the dome.
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Hi Dave,
Thanks for the link.
Yes, still interested. (A photo would help).
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http://www.transtar1.com/ (http://www.transtar1.com/)
Transmission parts place.
I contacted Transtar regarding availability of parts for this transmission.
Here was their response:
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"We did a clean out about 3 years ago and tossed a bunch of old stuff.
I hate throwing things away but I always run out of room".
Dave Hritsko
Transtar Industries
Technical Service Manager
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Guess I'm out of luck with that option.
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I contacted Transtar regarding availability of parts for this transmission.
Here was their response:
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"We did a clean out about 3 years ago and tossed a bunch of old stuff.
I hate throwing things away but I always run out of room".
Dave Hritsko
Transtar Industries
Technical Service Manager
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Guess I'm out of luck with that option.
Bummer! :(
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Yeah, that isn't good.
Was it all the shops, or just the one local to you that did that?
Do you know of any really good machinists? Maybe you could have somebody make you the parts you need. Costly, but it is an option. Maybe you could have enough made to sell them and get some of your money back.
Maybe you will have to upgrade after all? Or even go with an automatic trans? Definitely not as fun to drive, and with the Pinto engine not as much off the line power, but you would be able to drive the car. And that might be the most important thing.
There is a product out there for the T5 shifters that moves them back, but it is billet and not cheap. I don't know if I have the site bookmarked or not, but I will check and see.
http://www.autoworksparts.com/billet_shifter_relocation_kit.htm (http://www.autoworksparts.com/billet_shifter_relocation_kit.htm)
Another option with the T5 is the camaro/S10 tailshaft swap. But it comes with other issues to solve.
Or maybe you can find a whole Pinto trans with a decent shifter. Advertise here would probably be the best place. Although that might only be a stop gap until that shifter has problems. We are dealing with almost 40 year old parts here.
How about putting a 302 and trans into that car? ::) Joke, I know you probably wouldn't want to do that even if it would fit.
I am glad now that my car didn't have the Pinto trans with it. Makes the decision to go T5 much easier for me. More costly up front, but better in the long run. Since it is a Mustang trans the odds of having parts available for the rest of my lifetime are pretty good.
Russ
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For FOG parts go to http://www.drivetrain.com They have them or so they say.
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How about putting a 302 and trans into that car? ::) Joke, I know you probably wouldn't want to do that even if it would fit.
But of you could squeeze it in there, you'd have the ultimate sleeper!!! :o
Dwayne ;D
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For FOG parts go to http://www.drivetrain.com They have them or so they say.
I checked on them. They just have rebuild kits, no shifter parts.
Thanks.
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Maybe you will have to upgrade after all? Or even go with an automatic trans.
Russ
OK, here's the latest. Went back to the Ford dealer I visited a few weeks ago. The parts manager was very nice and did a nationwide search of all Ford parts inventory. Came up with NOTHING AVAILABLE.
So now I'm thinking maybe I have to go with an upgrade, possibly with the C3 trans since these cars also came with those. Question is, would that eliminate the need to hunt around for a new bell housing? Can I use the existing bell housing and just eliminate the clutch assembly?
You guys need to answer that for me.
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The answer is no. You will need the c-3 or c-4 flex plate, converter, tranie with bell housing, shifter, tranie oil cooler, and most likely a new drive shaft. Sorry.
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The answer is no. You will need the c-3 or c-4 flex plate, converter, tranie with bell housing, shifter, tranie oil cooler, and most likely a new drive shaft. Sorry.
Thanks. Guess that kills that idea.
So, the last option, and probably the most cost effective, is to find someone who can fabricate the parts I need. Where do I start? Who does that?
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The parts to convert over to an auto really aren't hard to find. this is probably the best option. Maybe a couple hundred bucks plus shipping? I would imagine this would be a lot cheaper than having custom parts made. Use an aftermarket trans cooler so you don't have to change radiators, assuming yours does not have the auto trans cooler built in.
Post an ad here and you will probably get everything you need in one shot.
As far as finding a machinist, you can ask around any clubs you are in, friends, co workers, etc. Or get out the old phone book and start calling shops. Finding someone willing and able to do it might be the hard part. And they will most likely want a deposit up front to show you are serious.
It really will depend on what all it will take for them to do it, and that is something only a machinist type will know. If you could find a retired type who has a CNC type mill, or other equipment and does it for fun, that would be your best shot.
Russ
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The parts to convert over to an auto really aren't hard to find. this is probably the best option. Maybe a couple hundred bucks plus shipping? I would imagine this would be a lot cheaper than having custom parts made. Use an aftermarket trans cooler so you don't have to change radiators, assuming yours does not have the auto trans cooler built in.
Russ
Thanks for the advice. The previois post had me thinking that it would be an expensive and complicated option.
I just installed a new radiator and it has an auto trans cooler built in, so I guess I'm covered there. Glad I went for that option on the radiator. At the time I purchased I figured it couldn't hurt to have it.
What about a T5. I'm hearing a lot of good things about that trans as there are many and the parts are easy to find. Is that an option?
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Yes, a T5 is definitely an option. The T5 is definitely more expensive than converting to an automatic. That may be what you were thinking of.
It really comes down to how much you are willing and able to spend. That is something you'll have to decide. Then we can help out more
Russ
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Yes, a T5 is definitely an option. The T5 is definitely more expensive than converting to an automatic. That may be what you were thinking of.
It really comes down to how much you are willing and able to spend. That is something you'll have to decide. Then we can help out more
Russ
I would like to keep it under a couple hundred dollars. Not sure if that will get me anywhere. Do you have some advice given that spending limit?
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I'd see if I could find the shifter stuff, like I saw you are doing in the wanted forum. ;D
You could probably get most if not all of the C3 conversion stuff for that I would think, but I at least would want to have the trans rebuilt for peace of mind, and that will run the cost up quite a bit.
The T5 conversion would likely run close to $1000, unless you got really lucky and found a Mustang with a 2.3 and a T5 being sold very cheaply that you could buy whole and take everything you needed from, and there would still be some other expense most likely for little stuff. but the other side to that is you could probably make more money parting out the leftovers and end up either breaking even or coming out ahead. If you have a place and tools to do that.
The T5 trans alone here (Phoenix) are running several hundred by themselves. And it does have to be a 2.3 engine T5, unless you want to spend even more on the conversion. The V8 T5 isn't a bolt in for the 2.3 T5. Dang it all. :(
Try Craigslist in your area as well. I forget all the other cars that used the same 4 speed trans, they would all use the same shifter. And junk yards. Somewhere here there is a list of cars that used the FOG trans. It does give you more options than just looking for a "Pinto" part.
If anyone else has any ideas please let Andrew know them. I am not an expert in all of this by any stretch of the imagination.
Russ
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The T5 conversion would likely run close to $1000, unless you got really lucky and found a Mustang with a 2.3 and a T5 being sold very cheaply that you could buy whole and take everything you needed from, and there would still be some other expense most likely for little stuff. but the other side to that is you could probably make more money parting out the leftovers and end up either breaking even or coming out ahead. If you have a place and tools to do that.
Russ
I don't have the time, nor the facilities to be able to go through the process of finding an old Mustang, strippinng it for needed items, and then parting it out. Wish I did as this sounds lime a cost effective option.
When you say the T5 conversion would run close to $1000, are we talking a new trans. In my research about these trans, I've seen videos about T5 upgrades and they look new. Is this correct?
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One last thought before you get into a conversion... have you checked with Green Sales? They specialize in obsolete Ford parts and might possibly have what you need. Worth a shot anyway!
Dwayne :)
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One last thought before you get into a conversion... have you checked with Green Sales? They specialize in obsolete Ford parts and might possibly have what you need. Worth a shot anyway!
Dwayne :)
Thanks Dwayne, I give them a try.
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Just did a search for the part on Green Sales site. No good, but I did send them an email? Let's see how they respond.
Thanks again for that tip.
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Racer Walsh use to sell a short throw shifter. You might try him and see if they have any in stock.
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When you say the T5 conversion would run close to $1000, are we talking a new trans. In my research about these trans, I've seen videos about T5 upgrades and they look new. Is this correct?
The video may be showing a new or rebuilt trans. But new is way out of your budget. New you are talking well over $1000 just for the trans itself. Used here they run from $300 up. And that usually is just the trans, no bellhousing or other stuff. When you can find a 2.3 version. With no real guarantee that they are good other than the seller's word for it.
Junkyard trans cost a bit more than say a craigslist one, but they do come with a short warranty.
Really, given your budget, finding a new shifter seems the best way, with converting to an auto trans second.
What do other people who have those cars do for parts?
Russ
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Another place you might want to try is www.obsoletereliableparts.com (http://www.obsoletereliableparts.com). I saw their ad in the current Hemming Motor News and they say they specialize in 1949 - 1989 Ford parts.
Dwayne :)
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Thank you for that advice.
I found out through trial & error (40 years ago) !!! I had a couple of sources but they are not in business any longer.
Thanks for the post. I will replace the parts you recommended.
Any ideas regarding where to get those parts?
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A C3 comes with the bellhousing or the trans is worthless, the bell holds the front pump.
The MTX driveshaft fits fine with a C3, mine has that from a FOG and a '80 model wagon.
C3 flexplate can still be found. Trans needs a certain trans mount. Shifters from other models may well work, I used a Mustang II shifter.
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........... Shifters from other models may well work, I used a Mustang II shifter.
When you say other shifters may work well, are you talking about on my manual, or the C3?