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Offline pinto_one

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Transmission Crossmember mesurements
« on: December 03, 2013, 01:47:12 PM »
Hi , I know someone out there that might be skinny enough after eating so much on turkey day could crawl under their pinto to get some mesurements so I can weld in a new transmission mount,  I have a V-6 pinto that a few years ago I pulled the engine to rebuild it, I cut out the brackets on the transmission because I am going to use the A4LD over drive transmission in it, only I lost all my data I had on the new mount when my old computer crashed, so now have to start over ,   the swap is not so bad as I thought it would be,  easyer if you already have the C-3 in it , dip stick , plug in for the neutral/back up lites are the same,  cut the drive shaft 4  1/2 inches and the same with the shifter rod,  the yoke fits also,  shifter just take a little filing for 1st and sec gear, trans lines hook up in same place ,  now only thing to do is to weld up the mount and I am done , Thanks   Blaine In Missisippi
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

Offline amc49

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Re: Transmission Crossmember mesurements
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2013, 07:41:07 PM »
Wish I'd picked up an A4LD myself instead of rebuiding a C3, at the time I did it I did not realize they were almost the same trans. Which one you got, the one with no electronic control except TCC?

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Transmission Crossmember mesurements
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2013, 09:54:50 PM »
I thought they were all electronic?????, I got a C-3 in mine now and was thinking about an overdrive but I don't want to deal with the electronic stuff, the TCC is no big deal just use a toggle switch..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Offline amc49

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Re: Transmission Crossmember mesurements
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2013, 05:52:30 AM »
Went looking for info once, pretty sure the first year one is not. There are no solenoids on the VB. There is electronic for TCC but that's not hard to work around.

Offline amc49

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Re: Transmission Crossmember mesurements
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2013, 06:11:50 AM »
http://sierraautomatico.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/a4ld_manualatsg.pdf

Look at page 85 and 86, early trans has only TCC solenoid, later one has 3-4 shift solenoid and TCC solenoid. The early one shifts 3-4 hydraulically like old school. Note years of trans on those two pages.

I'd save that manual pretty quick, things like that have a tendency to disappear pretty quick......... .............. .ATSG does not like to give away money......... ..

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Transmission Crossmember mesurements
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2013, 07:27:39 AM »
WOW thanks bunch, I saved that one for sure. Took a quick glance but the early one seems kinda like the 700R basics?, but I thought they were all like the 4L60E all electronic(computerized) but looks like just 3-4 is electronic with a solenoid like the TCC, that's pretty cool because you could just use a toggle switch to activate 3-4 when you wanted to go to overdrive not when it wants to just like the lockup, so two toggle switches on the shifter done deal. I'm gonna have to look into this.. Thanks again..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Offline pinto_one

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Re: Transmission Crossmember mesurements
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2013, 02:40:48 PM »
the one I have is electronic, but you can still use it with a switch, the early ones had just the one wire for converter lock up, but the later ones after 93 were the better ones , 6 pinion planet gear set instead of 3 that the org C-3 used , so if you want to upgrade your C-3 use the later A4LD back half guts , all the same , only much more stronger, you can also use the early VB in the newer (after 93 ) A4ld and use a relay and push button for lock up, like the GM 700R4,   works the same way , made up a Bellhousing to mate the 700R4 to my 2.8 V-6 but the headers hit the trans on the right side and did not have the room to move them out enough to clear, so in went the A4Ld , I also dropped in a 2.9 crank and machined the nose for the gear , rods are the same but you have to use the 2.9 pistons , if you use the 2.8s you will have over 10 to 1 compression , also using the 2.9 computer and a 3.8 TB , (see ranger station for that conversion )  reason for the mods is I pull a 2000 pound 16ft Scamp Camper , plus I want the MPG when I am not towing ,
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Transmission Crossmember mesurements
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2013, 04:28:23 PM »
Thanks for the info, looks like the A4ld is in the future and I assume it should bolt up to the C-3 bellhousing too, right.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Offline amc49

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Re: Transmission Crossmember mesurements
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2013, 07:42:20 PM »
Don't quote me on that one but thinking yes. Several converters used there as well, obviously you want the lock up one, could be different ones based on engine used.  I know way back in the day the tech guy at trans parts distributor was telling me to bring in converter, there were several of them. The upgrade to 6 pinions probably so they could use the trans on bigger sixes with more torque. While nice to have maybe not necessary on simple low HP fours.

FYI look CLOSE, don't know if front pump on A4LD is like the C3, but if it is, there is no centering pilot like most pumps have to center up pump front and back to each other. Meaning if you pull pump apart you must, I say MUST make provision to center the front back up on back to make both parts concentric with each other. If not converter then goes in and pump insides off center from snout bushing and can tear up trans in about 15 minutes like that. Ford uses a special tool to center up all to each other and tighten down then.



Offline pinto_one

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Re: Transmission Crossmember mesurements
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2013, 08:03:59 PM »
yes it will bolt up but then the lockup converter will not fit,  it is not like the C-4 , the front pump is built into the bellhousing , if you have a 2.3 use the one out of a ranger 2wd or mustang with the 2.3 , use flywheel also, some had bolts, some had studs and nuts, grab the dipstick also , if you do not you will have to use a spacer (one inch) because the housing is one inch longer because of the lock up converter, should give you some more get up and go because of the higher stall speed, even if you do not hook up the OD and lock up switchs it will act just like the C-3, same gear ratio, cooler line will work also if you org had the C-3 but you will have to bolt them to the trans and strech them forward the one inch before you tighten them, (that extra inch on the housing ) if you buy one make sure you get the plug for the OD/Lock up, the neutral switch is the same, just plug it in, as for using the stock C-3 converter with the A4LD , nope , as I said the bell is one inch longer , but you can bolt the C-3 bell on the A4LD , but you will not have Lock up, and the high stall will heat up the oil in no time if your in alote of stop and go traffic , I have the same trans in my 4-0 ranger and have a temp gauge one it , it cools down very quick when it goes to lock up,    but note this ,  never ever Tow in Over drive with this transmission, it will die very soon,  as me how I know  :P , later Blaine
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

Offline amc49

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Re: Transmission Crossmember mesurements
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2013, 08:07:01 PM »
Yep, just as I thought, look at pages 79-80 in that linked manual and step 63 of page 79, there is no register for the pump to center up on, only a flat surface. Steps 68 and 69 describe the centering up procedure using the tool I referred to. You'll play the dickens finding one.

IIRC I left out the pump seal so as to make some working room and bought 3 drill bits of exact same size and measured them to be sure within .001" of each other, picked size wise to take up most of the distance in the airgap there. I took 3 $5 Autozone feeler gauge sets apart by simply unscrewing the screw to free up feeler gauge pieces of all sizes. I picked drill bit to use with a like .001"-010" feeler in a range to make up the rest of thickness, a drill bit plus feeler of correct thickness equaled just tight in the gap there, arrange all three drill+ feeler in a triangle pattern and keep switching out feelers bigger and bigger until gap taken up. When you are there tighten the pump up. If carefully done you will be within .002" there and it'll run forever. You need drill bits sized so that the feelers are thin so they can curve to conform to the curve of your inner bore there. If feelers too thick you will make big errors there. Quick check when done? Once pump bolted up tight mount it on converter snout and slowly rotate it, if free all the way round you're good to go. Banzai........ ........

I've got like 5 sets of AZ feeler gauges, I've managed to use them with other parts in different ways to not need the sometimes $250 special toolsets for some ATX that you cannot 'do without', like CD4E.

Offline amc49

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Re: Transmission Crossmember mesurements
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2013, 08:14:43 PM »
Not 100% sure but the OEM would've put that trans behind a 2.3; there HAS to be a converter bellhousing that simply bolts right up using all A4LD parts and converter. Now as to whether the crank changed for converter snout? You never know.......... .....

And I agree that trans is too light duty even with the 6 pinions to be towing with. It was meant for lightweight cars and little power. Should get good mileage though with lighter parts in it.

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Re: Transmission Crossmember mesurements
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2013, 08:32:55 PM »
my shortcut on the pump was just slip it on the converter and tighten up the pump, the remove the converter and bolt the housing on the trans, also did you do the oil drain back mod to the pump seal area , and always use the new style front pump seal from ford , Better and take more heat, A4Ld takes the same pump seal as the C-3, also more info, if your going to put this in your V-6 pinto like I am use the 4.0 A4LD  and use the 2.9 converter , 4.0 is low stall ,  2.9 high stall,   if you buy one it will only come a few ways ,OEM, 2.3 A4Ld Ranger .mustang and some Turbo T-Birds,       2.8 2.9 and 4.0 have the same bolt patern,  3.0 is all by it self ,  they are other versions of the trans , but you need a computor to make them work,  as for the first one I cooked was in a 86 ranger 2.3 , towed in overdrive, after that bigger coolers and toed in drive and even have manual lock up switch, truck has 250K no problems wifes bronco II trans craped out at almost 400K, it a good transmission if you know what you can and should not do with it, one is change oil in it every 15K, works for me,
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Transmission Crossmember mesurements
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2013, 09:02:01 PM »
Well, I doubt I'd be towing with a Pinto,LOL, as far as alignment goes that shouldn't be an issue that tool shouldn't be hard to make it's just a centering device. So the Ranger and Mustang with 2.3 unit will fit the Pinto and can use the lockup then, move crossmember and make up cooling lines and wire up the lockup and OD and it should be good to go, and I'm sure the drive shaft will have to shortened also, I assume the yoke is the same as the C-3?..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Offline pinto_one

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Re: Transmission Crossmember mesurements
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2013, 09:18:32 PM »
yes it has the same yoke , if your pinto has the C-3 it will be better ,cooler lines are the same, so you do not have to make up those, shifter arm will have to be removed and put into The A4LD , you do not have to remove the VB, drive shaft will have to shorten 4.5 inch,s  and the same for the shifter rod, the shifter will almost have the same travel, just have to file a little on top of the park side and a tad on the low side , so looking at the car you will never know if it had overdrive , nice to get rid of the buzzing at hwy speeds , and get some MPG to boot,
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

Offline amc49

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Re: Transmission Crossmember mesurements
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2013, 12:50:17 AM »
Yes I did do the C3 pump mods as well. Also a Transgo shift kit to stop the shuttle shifting, that thing used to drive me crazy. Downshifted WAY too easy and early. Kit pretty much took care of that. There was some sort of reverse pressure mod in there as well-I had to drop that one, trans not worn enough to need it. Going into reverse jerked super hard and too much there.

I switched from MTX to ATX at the time, and shortened driveshaft enough to allow for 1 inch further forward movement left as the car sat at ride height.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Transmission Crossmember mesurements
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2013, 06:46:22 AM »
yes it has the same yoke , if your pinto has the C-3 it will be better ,cooler lines are the same, so you do not have to make up those, shifter arm will have to be removed and put into The A4LD , you do not have to remove the VB, drive shaft will have to shorten 4.5 inch,s  and the same for the shifter rod, the shifter will almost have the same travel, just have to file a little on top of the park side and a tad on the low side , so looking at the car you will never know if it had overdrive , nice to get rid of the buzzing at hwy speeds , and get some MPG to boot,
Thanks, yep it has a C-3 in it now so looks like a simple swap then and everything looks stock, cool. Yes, sure will be nice to get better mileage and get rid of that buzzing going down the road.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.