PINTO CAR CLUB of AMERICA
Welcome to FordPinto.com, The home of the PCCA => General Help- Ask the Experts... => Topic started by: poomwah on April 03, 2014, 11:21:37 AM
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Ok, my 78 has what as near as I can figure are the original vaccum lines . Obviously they are sh*t.
I'm trying to come up with the money to replace the intake and carb. But this needs immediate attention. I'd rather not go out and buy a roll of vacuum line just to pull most of them off and throw them away as soon as I change the intake/carb.
So.... it's been a LONG time since I've been under the hood of a 2.3. What can I get rid of and what do I HAVE to keep. There's no emissions testing in Ohio, so I'm not worried about that, just worried about the carb working right.
Obviously I need vaccum for the advance, PVC, what else do I NEED.
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I would think with no emissions testing, the PCV and vacuum advance would be all you need. Also too, IF you still have your charcoal canister, I would retain it. They can actually net you a few more MPG by returning fuel vapor to the tank where it condenses back into liquid gasoline.
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thanks Rob, I didn't know that about the charcoal canister, mine is hooked up now. The lines going to it were the first broken ones I found, I did the quick fix and cut an inch off the ends of them an plugged them back in.
So, no goofy solenoids or anything on the carb that are vacuum controlled?
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If no smog you can get rid of everything, like Rob says PCV and vacuum advance is all you need, that's all I have left on mine and I hooked up the vacuum advance to full manifold vacuum, that increased mileage and idles a 100% better and no shake.
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awesome,
I had been reading on here about someone with a 2.3 that had the emissions stuff pulled off and it killed his gas mileage due to the way the vacuum lines control the mixture on the carbs
I like the idea of removing everything.
Funny thing, I can't find my vacuum caps, I need to go but some more :P
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Some of the devices can be beneficial. Not sure if the Pinto had the temp sensitive air bleeds in the air cleaner, but they generally help to compensate for air temp., and should be benign once the car is moving.
EGR has the potential to be tricky. Can you run more advance because the combustion temps are lower with EGR??? Or, does a non diluted mixture with EGR removed provide more power??? The good news is that it is easy to test.
I've heard (but have no experience) that advancing the cam helps. It seems not only the Pinto, but just about every car of that era. There is the $50-ish cam sprocket, but there are probably offset keys that can be bought for about $5. 4 degrees (max) is the number I recall hearing. An easy task (just make sure you put the key in right).
Sorry for the "generalize" comments, but I'm not familiar with the carburated Pinto.
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Advancing the cam increases bottom end, retarding the cam increases top end, don't matter if injected or carbureted.
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Advancing the cam increases bottom end, retarding the cam increases top end, don't matter if injected or carbureted.
Yes, sorry for the confusion. You are correct (injected or carbuteted) cam timing is all the same. I was more stating I was unsure of all the vacuum hoses on the Pinto. I went from a 2.0 to a 2.3 turbo in short time. Sometimes I complete a thought a paragraph or two later (it comes with getting older). :-(
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where can you get the 50ish cam sprocket? the ones I'm finding are 100 or more
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$100+ gets you an incrementally adjustable sprocket
$50+ gets you a specifically adjustable sprocket (like the link below) Knowing you were into saving cash, it was the one I was thinking of.
And, WOW $15 for (one) offset cam key? I must be living under a rock. I bought one for a Mercedes once and it was only $7.
In the end if you know what you want (what has worked for others) the end result is all the same.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-2-3-Ford-Adjustable-Cam-Timing-Sprocket-Stock-Look-Anodized-Billet-Aluminum-/131144352234?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e88d001ea&vxp=mtr
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I would never in a million years move the camshaft timing without knowing where it is first. Without that knowledge, you have no idea where it will end up. Degree wheel kits are pretty cheap. Get one, learn to use it and you can recoup the money spent on it degreeing cams for friends. It is simple grammar school math. There's nothing to it after you walk through it a time or two. Moving camshaft timing without a degree wheel is just something I would never do. In fact, I use a degree wheel coupled with a compression gauge to make sure I maximize cylinder pressure for a given engine combination... ..but perhaps that's getting a little deep for now. Without the degree wheel, you have no idea where camshaft timing is. Rest assured, Ford didn't degree it from the factory. I have seen them bad as 8 degrees off from the factory. Just food for thought.
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thanks guys, I will definitely look into the degree wheel.
Wittsend, thanks for trying to save me a few bucks :]
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"you have no idea where it will end up."
True, but with a history of retarded cam timing in the 70's, chain (or belt) stretch, low compression (often from pistons TDC being down in the hole) I seriously doubt you will wind up with valves hitting pistons or too high a cylinder pressure if you advanced say..., 4 degrees (as a max). You are probable just putting the cam back to some prior, less stringent smog year (and new belt) degree setting. I seriously doubt it will go out of the range of acceptable.
And in the end the setting will be "what works." That is the whole point of the adjustable sprocket. It is because you desire to deviate from the manufacture setting. That part is done by testing, not math. I wouldn't argue at all if you are building a race motor with tight piston to valve clearance, compression ratios that push the limit of cylinder pressure etc.. Though I'd bet that regardless of where an engine was set when built, not too shortly after it is run the timing set stretch and initial cam wear have it off anyway.
But here (on a stock 70's era 2.3), you loosen the bolts, you rotate the sprocket, you test drive. When it is to your liking (if it even gets there) then curiosity might factor into seeing what the number really is.
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I agree. I guess it's just the mechanic coming out in me. Been doing it since 1974, so sometimes I take for granted not everybody has tools they forgot they had. Nonetheless, 4* difference will make a world of difference in how that little pup runs, degree wheel or no.
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well, I just found so many scans of degree wheels that I can just print one and glue it to a piece of plastic or sheet metal and have a freebie degree wheel :]
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Harbor Freight has dial indicators pretty cheap. Well..., they use to. I got mine back in '05 for $7 and now, even on sale, it is $15. Come to think of it I paid about $7 for the magnetic base too. But look around. I got a Swiss made Interapid indicator at a swapmeet for $3. My machinist son drooled, and then by chance he got the exact same for next to nothing too. List was something on the order of $175.
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FYI, the only way yanking vacuum hoses can affect carb is if it is a feedback electronically controlled one. Other than that when yanking hoses you could leave one open instead of plugging it, that would tend to mess up the idle and off idle.
The early feedback carb on these was a 5200 with a modified power valve that instead of instant full on or off was a metering device that modified the main jet flow by adding or subtracting from it. Vacuum controlled it.
If you yank EGR the engine depending on age may ping, simply back the timing off a bit. You need to pay attention to idle ignition timing if switching from spark port to constant vacuum, the constant will increase idle timing and you compensate by moving timing back. That however can have you at lower power when the all-in full advance at rpm is too low. Gotta watch aftermarket vacuum dashpots for advance as well, there were like 50 different ones, by no means are they all the same. Some have more advance than others.
Like the guy says, you really have no idea of what you are doing until you have tuned in dead accurate TDC, you think you know where you are but often you are lost. There is no sense in even quoting this or that number until you have a standard to adjust to.
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ok, so degree wheel and adjustable cam gear are definitely on the list.
so, the only feedback issues on the carb are going to be electric? I have decided I want to use the stock carb and the stock intake IF I can get it to look good. I'm on a mission to make the engine compartment as clean and tidy as possible.
Right side should be easy, Ranger tubular header, and some work with the heater hoses. Left side on the other hand :P
What do you guys recommend for air cleaner? open element or just polish the buhjeezus out of the one thats on it?
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LOL, there is nothing that looks good about a stock 2.3 intake........ .......
You don't have feedback carb in that year unless a California car. Feedback carb has a vacuum hose running to the top cover at the power valve location, don't confuse it with an electrically controlled vent. They look similar. You CAN defeat the electric carb vent on front top of carb (if equipped) but you must provide for proper carb venting doing so. IIRC, when wires cut the vent closes and no venting then, someone correct me. I took mine and vented the hose to carbon canister. You can plug it even if you still have carb vent to inside air cleaner, Been a while since I looked at one. Carb really only needs the internal vent to air cleaner to work right.
There is a setup on some to retard spark advance in distributor that I had to leave on mine when removing it made engine ping hard while cold. Once hot it quits. FYI..........
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I totally agree on the looks of the intake. Any suggestions on a cleaner looking intake that won't require any adpater to be fabricated?
thanks for the carb advice too :]
and to go off topic, tell me about your username?
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Our family thought outside of the box by racing American Motors AMX cars back in the '70s, we were quite reviled for it. 454 Camaro drivers get pretty upset when they get beat by 390 AMX drivers, we did it all the time. Nobody recognized it but the V-8 in a Pinto, or Vega, was already done in the AMX, and a BIG V-8 at that, you gotta look close. Gremlins even better except they don't launch as well.
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I am a huge AMC fan. What a lot of people don't realize about the 390 is, much the same as the Chrysler 340, Buick 430 and Oldsmobile 403, the 390 only came one way. HOT. They were all HP engines from the factory, so I could sure see where a bigger engine could get whooped by a 390. They were all kinda badassary.
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I used to be an amc freak. amc superfreak as some of the guys put it.
I never raced , just street fun.
I had a 76 gremlin x that was my low budget "show car" amazing how many trophy's that thing got and how many people got pissed.
had several eagles, a concord wagon. three javelins and my favorite was a 74 hornet that originally had a 232 but I swapped that out for a 360 out of a 71 javelin sst. I REALLY miss that car
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"Gremlins even better except they don't launch as well. "
Which is probably why Wally Booth eventually ran a Hornet in Pro Stock. The Hornet wheel base might also have factored the car better (weight wise) like it did for the Gapp & Roush 4Dr. Maverick "Taxi." Interesting days in Pro Stock when wheel base was a consideration for weight breaks.
AMC49 do you Remember a Green Gremlin (I think BB Chevy powered) that ran twin turbos and was named the "Sassy Gremlin?" I'm not sure what class it ran in (if it even met class rules) with the twin turbos. It was a California based car in the late 70's. The owner Paul Pittman was the father in law of my best friend from high school.
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I remember that car very well, don't remember it being turboed though???..
(http://www.planethoustonamx.com/Photo_Gallery_Nascar/paul_pittman_sassy_gremlin.JPG)
(http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/c3/60/d7/c360d7d9cf2942d1362d2852c3a0e9ab.jpg)
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I looked for a picture, but couldn't find one with a turbo in the Sassy Gremlin. But, I found this below (see bold). I also talked to Paul Pittman after his daughter married my friend and he talked bout the shear power when the boost came on. So, at some point it had turbos. I remember the car running at Irwindale. Quiet for a drag car, somewhat slow off the line and gathered speed like a missile.
"There were probably others, but if there were they didn't have the success and get the press of the Mallicoats.
They did well enough with turbos that they ran them on their Barracuda gasser too (around 67 or 68)
Larry T
OK, I looked it up. Mallicoat Barracuda around 1971. Montgomery Mustang-1972. And Paul Pittman (Gremlin) and Panella/Minor (Opel GT) were also mentioned as turboed cars.
It's in the Don Montgomery (Rockerhead here on the HAMB) Supercharged Gas Coupes book."
Link: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-660203.html (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-660203.html)
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Nice to see someone interested in cam timing. I did a post a few years ago on how to do it easy & cheap. Maybe someone with more computer skills than me can find it and post a link.
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I wish this was in the budget
http://www.ebay.com/itm/161270003783?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
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Pretty much what I'll be doing except for the carb, probably have $125 in the whole thing.
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I looked for a picture, but couldn't find one with a turbo in the Sassy Gremlin. But, I found this below (see bold). I also talked to Paul Pittman after his daughter married my friend and he talked bout the shear power when the boost came on. So, at some point it had turbos. I remember the car running at Irwindale. Quiet for a drag car, somewhat slow off the line and gathered speed like a missile.
"There were probably others, but if there were they didn't have the success and get the press of the Mallicoats.
They did well enough with turbos that they ran them on their Barracuda gasser too (around 67 or 68)
Larry T
OK, I looked it up. Mallicoat Barracuda around 1971. Montgomery Mustang-1972. And Paul Pittman (Gremlin) and Panella/Minor (Opel GT) were also mentioned as turboed cars.
It's in the Don Montgomery (Rockerhead here on the HAMB) Supercharged Gas Coupes book."
Link: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-660203.html (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-660203.html)
Guess I just never seen it with a turbo, with turbos you have built in mufflers,lol, they are a little slow on the bottom until the spools up then they haul azz like gang busters, car left hard with the injectors though..
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'Which is probably why Wally Booth eventually ran a Hornet in Pro Stock.'
That, and the Hornet was much more slippery in high speed air........... ......we actually ended up with a Booth-Arons engine in the home race car at one time. A 356 inch engine that came out of one of the Hornets. At the time 780 hp. @ 9000 rpm. Man those ports were freakin' huge and heads were half glue and brass. Pop went to Detroit a coupla times around '74 to meet Wally and tour the shop. After he came back he was a changed man, the head work then became MUCH more radical and why the cars suddenly went much faster. We were head grinding fools back then, Sears was warrantying Craftsman tool and die grinders for us at the rate of one like every 27 minutes back then. I still have 3 or 4 of them laying around that I subconsciously reach for when I see a bare unmolested head, it seems to be a mental disease I now have had for some 40 years. I keep hearing Oscar Goldman say 'we can make him (it) BETTER than he was before!'..........LOL.
390 AMC HOT?? I don't think so. They barely cracked 320 hp. The BIG key that everyone else missed was the TORQUE output (425 ft.lbs. for a 390), look at the specs of the day, the AMC engines made far more torque size for size than other engines did. As anyone who plays with engines knows, you can make big hp. from big torque, not the other way around. The biggest hottest fatblocks from GM and Mopar only made 450 ft.lbs. Pop saw that back then and the game was on. We blew away Mopar 440s by the droves as well as true 426 Hemi cars, 427, 428, 429 Ford (sorry guys) as well. Many of those were wrapped by big body boat anchor cars, the AMX then bumped the equivalent of another 50 hp. simply by virtue of its' low weight. With the stock leaf/link suspension they had we didn't even use traction devices, you could flip one upside down in a wheelie with none at all. The cars launched so hard you saw stars from blood draining from your head. The engines are a piece of cake to make 500 hp. with, we had a full bodied street 390 running in the tens with mufflers. No one could touch it on the street, we drove it to the track and bumped off trailered race cars as well.
I remember calling my brother over to look at the inside guts of a 440 Mopar back in the day and remarking "No wonder they're so damn slow, it takes another one hundred horsepower just to rotate the crank and rods in these....the freakin' pistons are gallon syrup buckets" then we both broke out laughing. Those were some great days and at the time I did not know how lucky I was to get to play with all that stuff.
No, never saw the turboed Gremlin, but we looked at those who swapped other engines into AMCs as sacrilegious, or, they weren't smart enough to make the AMC engine work. The thinking of the times and most certainly no inflection or insult intended to your friend. You gotta be pretty damn smart to run twin turbo and not melt pistons all day long. To each his own. I look at the AMC stuff as a teaching aid, we learned that all engines are the same but each has its' good points, you learn to look for those to exploit when you play with a new one. After the AMCs it was not hard to build six and seven hundred horse BBCs and we certainly did plenty of those as well. Some quite a bit higher, the pro stock engines made like 1500 hp.
Sorry, I have digressed off the topic like usual......... .........