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Offline JoeBob

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tires and rims
« on: December 04, 2018, 04:13:54 PM »

I know this issue has been covered a 100 times. I was dumb and did not read about it then, because I did not need it at the time. I bought new Goodrich 205 60 13 all season tires. They are worthless if wet.  These are the only tires I could find 13" Is there such a thing as a 4 to 5 lug adapter? I may need custom wheels made. Do 15" wheels fit safely. I don't know the proper wording for this. what wheel depth or offset do I need.
Thank you
Bill
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Offline Craiggarrett1969

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2018, 05:44:45 PM »
You can use a mustang notchbacks 4 lug rim

Offline Wittsend

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2018, 09:37:23 PM »
The more important question is, "What are you trying to accomplish?" The Ford Fox body cars came with 14", 15" and 16" wheels (steel and alloy) that are the same 4.25" X 4 pattern as the Pinto. Aftermarket wheels are also available. So, if you are just trying to get a different wheel size because there is more tire variety then you would not need adapters, just different wheels with the 4.25" X 4 pattern. Do note that I hear people complaining that even 15" tire are getting more difficult to find though I'd think they would be more available than 13" tires.

 Tire bulge becomes a factor in wheel offset.  On the rear you can just measure with a straight edge from the brake drum face to the most likely point of contact - the leaf spring. A lot of times the leaf springs are not parallel so measure at the front and back at the anticipated bulge point of the tire.  On the front it gets a bit tricky because clearance issues arise from the turning of the wheels.  Hopefully someone here who has bought wheels can give you a better idea of the numbers that they had to work within. That all said Pinto's have very generous wheel opening. I have temporarily run 225-60-16" on my Pinto with minimal rubbing..., not that I recommend this (see image). On the rear I think I used about 1/4" of spacer and none on the front.

Lastly whenever the tire size is increased the diameter also increases unless one steps the tire series (70, 60, 50) down. I say that because a taller tire will have the same effect as a numerically lower ratio. That will be slower off the line and slower to gather speed. Also the speedometer reading will be off. So just a few things to consider.

Offline JoeBob

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2018, 01:54:11 AM »

I bought the mustang wheels last year. I bought the last ones in the yard. I did not inspect them closely, two were damaged. There are no more available.
 I am trying to locate after market wheels, but have not had any luck yet. This is my driver. As it is now, I can not leave the house if the road is frosty. This is not a serious problem as I am retired.
I contacted a custom wheel manufacture to see if they carry blank wheels and can add the correct pattern per my request. They are going to call back. I do not understand much about cars. I understand measuring to see if tires fit, but don't under how that applies to offset. I am sure I need to understand this before I order. If anyone knows any aftermarket 15"wheels I would be grateful. As far as the availability of 15" tires in the future, I figure this purchase will out last me.
Bill
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Offline russosborne

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2018, 03:25:36 AM »
Bill, where about are you located?
I have a set of fox mustang after market 15 inch wheels on the 79 that need to go away since I am converting to 5 lug. They have decent tires on them but might not be any better than yours in the weather.
Shipping might be a problem but I could take the tires off.
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.
74 Pinto Wagon.  To be or Not to be a Pinchero, that is the question.

Offline russosborne

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2018, 03:39:16 AM »
Another option would be to look on Craigslist for fox body Mustang 15 inch wheels. The ones I have cost $100 for 4. And they're not bad. Somebody wanted bigger. Worked for me.
79 to 93 years. Stay away from the newer ones, the offset is different than these and while they can be used, you don't want to mess with the hassles it takes.
Summit racing sells them also, just tell them you want stock offset but 15 inch. Pick a few out on their website and post links here. We can help you with what works. 
Well, Summit only has a few. But fox mustangs are popular l know there are many more around.
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.
74 Pinto Wagon.  To be or Not to be a Pinchero, that is the question.

Offline Wittsend

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2018, 11:10:29 AM »
Bill,
  This link does a good job of explaining wheel offset. https://www.wheelpros.com/page/offset-explained/9 It is important because offset moves the wheel/tire closer to the internal aspects of the car..., or outward closer to potential rubbing fender openings. And in extreme cases the tire won't even be able to turn because if it presses against a portion of the suspension.
 
In general I'd say tires bulge about 1" outside the wheel. And you probably want no less than 1/2" (better 1") clearance between the tire and anything it can rub against. So, for any wheel considered the inner edge of the wheel should be minimally 1-1/2" away from anything it might hit.  As I stated above one can measure from the face of the brake drum (or hub if disc brakes).  If you are looking at say... a 26" diameter tire hold a straight edge across the drum then at point 13"out from center  measure the distance to anything the wheel/tire would first hit. This then gets processed mathematically .
 
As an EXAMPLE (only): If you have a 6" wide wheel with zero offset that means that 3" of the wheel goes inward. You want that additional 1-1/2" for tire bulge and clearance. So the distance measured from the face of the brake drum to the first thing likely to be hit (on a Pinto/rear - the leaf spring) you would need a 4-1/2" measurement.
 
As Russell stated be careful about newer wheels (even though they have a 4.25 X 4 bolt pattern) as they are most often designed for front wheel drive cars and have significant positive offset (center moved inward).  I've also found the the wheel center hole is typically too small to fit over the Pinto hubs.  In general I think (but can’t say 100%) you will find that just about any Fox body ('78-'93 Mustangs/'83-‘88 Thunderbirds - Ford Fairmont and the Mercury version of all these mentioned cars) 14" or 15" wheels will fit and give adequate clearance. Remember too as I stated above that the taller the tire the more "bog" on acceleration and the difference also alters the speedometer reading.
 
What tires you find that actually work well in inclement weather is another story. Perhaps having a discussion with a reputable tire dealer would be beneficial.  That way they can direct you towards the proper type of tire, what is available in what size (as we all know the smaller wheel sizes are getting harder to find) and THEN you can start a search for the wheels that are most appropriate.


Offline LongTimeFordMan

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2018, 11:44:09 AM »
I would upgrade to 14" wheels and tires..

American racing sells alloy rims with a 4 bolt ford pattern...

I have a set of 14" ones..

Not sure of the model numbers though..

I have a 3.40 rear end and 4 spd and the gearing works out well..3000 rpm at 70 mph with good off the line acceleration..

 had to change to a 17 tooth speedo gear..

Discount tire, walmart, and a lot of places sell 205 70 14 tires for around $50-70
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

Offline Wittsend

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2018, 04:14:32 PM »
In general I would agree. But his situation is that 205-60-13" tires are not conducive to the frost (and I assume snow) in his area.  If he goes to 205-70-14 he has nearly the same footprint. So, it seems proper tire compound and tread design is more of what needs to be changed. And in the 13" size it he can't get it even if the tire are sold as "All Season."


  I'm thinking if he can get a set of Fox body 14" steel wheels (used) and mount appropriate "snow" (or at least a better All Season) tire it is to his financial benefit. Aftermarket, especially alloy wheels are a lot of money spent for tires and wheels that only see a season each year. Here in So. Cal. the Pick Your Part has Madness Monday where you can buy a steel wheel with whatever tire is mounted for $7.00. They charge $3.00 to dismount the tire if you don't want it. A tire shop is going to charge you about the same as a disposal fee.  And sometimes you even get a decent tire too (but good luck finding a matching set of two..., or four).

Offline LongTimeFordMan

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2018, 05:08:24 PM »
Are there any pick a parts left down there?  They closed the one in sun valley.. turned it into an auction site..
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

Offline JoeBob

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2018, 05:44:00 PM »

Russ
I will take your offer. PM to follow.
Thank you
Bill
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Deuteronomy 7:9

Offline russosborne

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2018, 04:12:28 AM »
Couldn't seem to send anything by pm.
here are a couple of quick pictures.
I do have the center caps.
I'll take some better pictures later, I was rushing while heading out to the car to go to work when I took these.
the one just shows the current tire size, to give you an idea of what the rims take.
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.
74 Pinto Wagon.  To be or Not to be a Pinchero, that is the question.

Offline Wittsend

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2018, 01:13:59 PM »


Are there any pick a parts left down there?  They closed the one in sun valley.. turned it into an auction site..

 
Actually there were two self serve yards in Sun Valley. There is the large, corporate LKQ Pick Your Part (some mistakenly called it Pick A Part) over on Tuxford. It is still there. They still have a 40% off (use to be 50% off) roughly every month. But they nickel and dime you on EVERYTHING. It is $3 to get in the “Regular” yard and an additional $2 to get in the “Premo” yard. The place is poorly managed and on sale day check out can be an hour and a half – or more.
 
The yard you are referring to was U-Pick Part on Penrose. They never had sales but generally their prices were somewhat lower. A sad day when it closed. It was more of a quirky yard where the other is decidedly corporate.
 
I use to go to both yards monthly for over 15+ years. I’d pack a lunch and be there from 7AM to 6:30PM when they closed. I’d come home tired, filthy and HAPPY! But the past year or so I have not gone. The closing of U-Pick Parts cut the potential parts cars in half. And the “classic” section at the remaining Pick Your Part is two small rows of mid 80’s Mercedes, early Miata’s and the like.  Hardly classics in my books.
 
Picture is the last day U-Pick Parts was open.

Offline Wittsend

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2018, 02:16:26 PM »
I'm not trying to hinder a sale here, but Bill know what you are getting into. You will need 4.25" X 4 by 4.50" X 5 wheel adapters that run about $300 for a set of four.  Adapter (set of 2) https://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Adapter-Lug-4-25-4-5/dp/B008IJQTVO Add in another $30+ for lug nuts. These adapters will push the aready wide wheels outward about 1" to 1-1/2". I am no expert on ice and snow driving but you likely need tires specific to that climate.  Maybe others can help as to whether wider or narrower tires are better. But at least in this case these wider wheels will require a wide enough tire to fit properly.

 So, you are probably looking at $350-ish for the adapters/lugs, likely no less than $450-$500 for proper tires plus whatever Russ wants for the wheels and shipping. This is likely going way over $1,000. And you will have a very wide placed, wide width tire that might have clearance issues.  Again, I'd advise you check with a reputable tire store to see if this is a proper course to remedy your problem. If they say this is appropriate THEN by all means proceed if you choose.

Any sleet, rain, snow, ice driving members out there that can help Bill as to what works best?

Offline JoeBob

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2018, 02:34:36 PM »

Russ
Did I misunderstand this offer, or did Whitt? It is my impression that you are offering 15" 4 lug direct fit rims. Just bolt on and go. Nothing besides tires are necessary. I have the nuts.
Thank you
Bill
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Deuteronomy 7:9

Offline Wittsend

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2018, 04:45:35 PM »
Frankly it is hard to tell in the picture if that is a fifth wheel stud..., or a reflection that looks like a fifth wheel stud. The stud spacing on the right looks 4 bolt but the stud spacing on the left looks 5 bolt. It may just be picture distortion. If they are 4.25 X 4 then that saves about $350 right there and also eliminates the extra widening that the adapter would create. Many issues solved.  So, if they are 4 bolt my apology for the unnecessary concern. Better to be safe than sorry (as a buyer).

Offline russosborne

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2018, 07:34:05 PM »
These are fox body Mustang. Direct fit.  .
They are currently on my 79 Pinto, no adapters needed.
Sorry for any grammar errors, just woke up. can't see the keyboard well

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.
74 Pinto Wagon.  To be or Not to be a Pinchero, that is the question.

Offline russosborne

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2018, 07:35:26 PM »
And what sale?
They are free.
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.
74 Pinto Wagon.  To be or Not to be a Pinchero, that is the question.

Offline JoeBob

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2018, 08:10:50 PM »

Thank you Russ. Just let me know what you need.
Bill
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Deuteronomy 7:9

Offline Wittsend

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2018, 09:05:32 PM »
Well Bill this gets better all the time. So, they are the stock bolt pattern (so much for pictures telling the whole story). And it is very generous for Russ to offer them to you. Hope it all works out.

Offline russosborne

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2018, 09:40:53 PM »
Bill, I will try to get a picture of the other side tomorrow with the center cap on.
Didn't realise how bad the reflections were on this one, like I said I was in a hurry to get to work and that side was the only one the car cover wasn't covering completely.
That spot that caused the confusion is the nut that the center cap mounting screw goes into.
Definitely 4 lug Fox Body Mustang. Not  sure of the exact rim width, but you can go a bit narrower or wider than the tires that are on it. Depending on clearance with the car that is.
I actually had bought these for the 89 Mustang I had, but scrapped that car. Tossed these on the Pinto so I could move it around after selling the tires/wheels it came with.
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.
74 Pinto Wagon.  To be or Not to be a Pinchero, that is the question.

Offline russosborne

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2018, 10:50:14 PM »
Hopefully these two come out better.
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.
74 Pinto Wagon.  To be or Not to be a Pinchero, that is the question.

Offline LongTimeFordMan

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2018, 11:47:50 PM »
Hi.. actually the LKQ is on pendleton and glenoaks across from the dump..  i never had much luck there.. when i lived in sun valley on vineland i was into mgb's and used to go the foreign  yard on both tuxford  and the american yard on penrose for parts for my rv..

I think the LKQ yard changed ownership sometime in the 90s there sed to be a section called memory lane there where they had a lot of classics.. i would cherry p8ck the goodies from.british cars, switches, allison ign modules, etc for really cheep. But then they got wise..

And the main yard checkout people couldnt recognise parts and often undervalued them.. then LKQ took over and things changed

I never had much success at the new LKQ yard since most of the check out people were latin, tended to speak spanish a lot behind the counter and tended to price gouge non hispanics..

And they did nickle and dime a lot.. if you bought an engine, they charged for pulleys, mounts, water pump, etc..

I think the yards on tuxford and penrose used to be one then they split it up to foreign and domestic... at least i remember the "domestic" yard on penrose having a lot ot mgb cars there in the 90s.

The folks at the yards on tuxford and penrose seemed a lot fairer and prices were better..

Anyway.. end of an era...
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

Offline Wittsend

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2018, 11:52:17 AM »
[
Hopefully these two come out better.
Russ

Ahh, Haa. It is the hole for the single screw center cover, coupled with the (previous) angled image, that made it look like a possible fifth lug bolt hole. Yes, obviously 4 bolt pattren for sure.

Offline Wittsend

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2018, 12:56:12 PM »
LTFM, My bad. You are right the LKQ Pick Your Part is on Pendelton.  If you have a 10-20 year old car if might be a usable source for parts. Nothing else though. And yes, I have left many a part on the check out counter when they tried to jack up the price. Also had my credit card number lifted there. Only used cash there ever after.

 Once I even bought an engine then AFTER I paid for it the guy at the gate said the exhaust manifolds weren't included. He offered me the option of giving him "some money" or going back in line at the counter. I had another guy hounding me because he wanted the engine lift. I threw the guy $4 and left.  For years people went in with tools and dismounted tires themselves.  Then one day after I had paid for the tires the guy at the gate strongly harassed me telling me I wasn't allowed to do so and threatened to bar me from the place.  There was NEVER a sign to this day stating that they prohibited the process.

 The place is SO poorly managed. On sale days the Premo section (about 40% of the volume) has ONE guy checking people in AND checking people out. The Regular section has five people for about 60% of the people - and they don't have to check people in. Look at their engine prices on line. They sell engines as "complete" and as "packages." NOTHING defines what the difference is and price wise they are all within a few dollars. Then where most engine "packages" (fuel injected, turbo etc.) are in the upper $200/lower $300 range for some stupid reason a "carburetor" engine package is over $700!  WHAT???  If anything it should be cheaper.

-----

The Penrose yard (U-Pick Parts) was the American yard and the Foreign yard (separate) was closer to Telfair and I believe called A Foreign??? But they  basically had same owner (Aadlen Brothers). In their last few years they took the wall down between them (saved $2 on admission) and moved the Foreign yard to the front of the American section. In fact, in their closing months there was no admission charge. They just had you sign the wavier. This was the quirky yard with a water buffalo in a corral and many other oddities. Here are a few articles about the yard closing.
http://sanfernandovalleyblog.blogspot.com/2015/10/sun-valleys-u-pick-parts-closing-down.html

 https://www.dailynews.com/2015/10/29/sun-valleys-venerable-u-pick-parts-junkyard-to-close/

Offline LongTimeFordMan

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2018, 01:40:44 PM »
Agreed..

I actually met Aadlen i think.. he was an old guy who hung out at the yard on penrose.. he had a pacemaker and so did i so we swapped stories..he was pretty cool. I bought a lot of mgb and 76 dodge truck parts there.. s8nce the early 90's. I liv3d about 2 miles away and used to go there and walk around for exercise..
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

Offline JoeBob

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2019, 02:55:32 PM »

     I thought I would update everyone about our wheel deal. I received the wheels today just as Russ promised. He is a real gentleman.
     Firestone is a real problem. This started with new 13" all season tires with no grip on frost or worse. No other tires were available. They suggested I upsize to 15" They also informed me of a suggested 15" tire they would pprovide. After 2 months I lost their recommendation .
     They now say the only tire that will work (they did math calculations) is 225/40/15  This tire does not exist. I asked is this calculation for the purpose of speedometer or safety?  Tire salesman paused and said "kinda both." I think he is BS ing me. I got the wheels from Russ because they recommended it.
     I gladly paid Russ the shipping price for the wheels. He did exactly what he said he would do. Not only did he give me free wheels, he gave me his time. I would not have wasted his time if I knew Firestone was unreliable.   
     What size 15" tires are you all using? These rims are 15"x7


Bill
77 yellow Bobcat hatchback
Deuteronomy 7:9

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2019, 05:37:37 PM »
225 60 was what were on them. 215 60 might be a better fit for you
 But let's see what others think.

And forget Firestone if at all possible. Discount Tires or Big O, or what you have around you. Shop for the tire size, not the car. Pintos never came with 15 inch wheels.

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.
74 Pinto Wagon.  To be or Not to be a Pinchero, that is the question.

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2019, 06:10:46 PM »
You can do 205 60 on those wheels also.
I'm thinking smaller is a safer bet.
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.
74 Pinto Wagon.  To be or Not to be a Pinchero, that is the question.

Offline russosborne

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Re: tires and rims
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2019, 06:14:45 PM »
If used is a possibility you would consider, I just saw this on Craigslist in your area.
https://denver.craigslist.org/wto/d/denverused-firestone-affinity-touring/6784982242.html
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.
74 Pinto Wagon.  To be or Not to be a Pinchero, that is the question.