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Author Topic: roller cam?  (Read 23417 times)

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Offline amc49

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2014, 05:15:47 PM »
It has been done before, yes. Can't remember exact ones but I know I've seen it. They do it as well to stiffen the cam up when using really radical lobes. The lobes on some specific engines are so tall now that they do it to help stabilize cylinder to cylinder timings. The S&S Harley pro stock bike engines are so radical the timings have to be cut differently for each lobe simply to make them seem to be the same in the real world. The hits from the huge cylinders speed up and slow down the cranks so much that cylinder to cylinder timing jumps around like a b-tch. 5.25" bore X 3.700" stroke, 2.75" intake valve, all at 9500 rpm.

And, I would turn the valve tip down way before I cut on a rocker........ ......

Offline Rob3865

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2014, 05:33:50 PM »
Yes! The small block Mopar has a few race oriented blocks that have provision for very large needle type cam bearings. They ain't cheap.

Offline amc49

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2014, 02:35:28 PM »
You're making me dig through cobwebs, LOL, I almost wanted to post SB Mopar but could not remember for sure.......... ........I really hate to post anything I'm not pretty much 100% sure of. That has me posting less and less nowadays, the old hard drive really taking dumps now.

Offline dick1172762

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2014, 03:13:52 PM »
Bruce Cower built a Hemi Desoto engine in the 50's for an indy car with all roller bearings on the cam, rocker arms, crank shaft, and rods. It ran great but no better than one with plain bearings. It slipped out of gear trying to qualify and went to over 10 grand, and blew up big time. End of project, but Cower did sell roller bearing cams after that for a while.
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Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2014, 10:28:40 PM »
Roller cam bearings have been used in Chevy, Ford, Mopar and Pontiac that I know of maybe even more I don't know(always way out of my budget), but Sprint, NASCAR and Pro Stock all used them at one time, don't here much about them anymore so I don't know if they're still being used or not, lot of discussions out there about them though, kinda like oil discussions,LOL..
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Offline amc49

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2014, 08:18:33 PM »
The frictional differences are nil. Main reason for roller would be durability but since the rollers do not contact all the way around some argument there too. Rollers work with less oil pressure and why you can run 15 psi like on bike motor and engine last forever, same engine in plain bearing needs like 60-70 psi. So some difference since oil pump loads more, more parasitic hp loss.

The difference in rollers on sliding cam lobes is obvious.

Offline Chopchop

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2014, 10:44:26 PM »
I just happened to be communicating with Esslinger over the last few days.  I told them I need more power in the 1500-4000 RPM range and asked them what they recommended.

Although this is certainly not a Ranger roller cam, they said, "We would go with our pn# 2261 with a change in lobe center.  I would decrease the lobe separation angle to 107 deg. That should help perk it up in your rpm range!"

This is the link to their cam specs page :

http://www.esslingeracing.com/catalog/page05.pdf

From that page, the Part Number 2261 cam has :

Dur.@.050 = 229/240
Int./Exh. Lift = 486/487
Adv Dur = 270/286
Center line = 117

According to the notes on the cam, "Spirited Street, Stock Head, 5200 to 350 Carb" and the power range is 1800 - 5500   and it's for a hydraulic lift, flat tappet 2300 engine.

I only have a very faint idea what any of that means but hopefully someone here can decipher the specs and compare that cam to a Ranger roller cam? 

Dave

Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2014, 01:12:26 AM »
Are the lifters used in the roller cam heads standard hydraulic 2.3 lifters or are they specific to roller cams?
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Offline Pinturbo75

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2014, 07:45:55 AM »
that cam would require removal of the head and machining of the guide bosses.... the amount of lift from that profile would cause the retainers to hit the valve seals.... anything over about 450 lift requires this machining to be done.....

the hla's are the same for any hydrolic cam unless the cam requires shiming of the hla's and then wide groove hla's would be needed so they could still recieve oil..
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Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2014, 10:44:47 AM »
the hla's are the same for any hydrolic cam unless the cam requires shiming and then wide groove hla's would be needed so they could still recieve oil.

Good to know. I need to hit a Pik-a-Part & nab a couple rollers
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Offline amc49

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2014, 06:59:48 PM »
No way will that cam approach a stock (roller or otherwise) cam in terms of driveability below 2000 rpm. NO WAY. Bringing lobe centers in closer will have it loping at idle pretty good. Gas mileage in town will be a disaster. I really don't care what the cam rpm limits say, often they are impossible in the real world. Bringing in lobe centers advances the intake and good for low rpm but any amount also increases overlap, they tend to cancel each other out. The way to get true power off dead idle is low overlap and short duration intake period so the intake closing is early at low rpm. Or, a stock cam. You need less than 220 degrees at .050" to pull at 1500 on these. Stockers are usually around 200-205 on the intake side.

The 2267 at top is close to same duration and centerline already lowered, less lift but INCREASES the minimum rpm number, less lift does not do that. So, one cam number set argues with another. Common, some of the rpm ranges are out to lunch there. Your chosen cam being one.

Offline Pintosopher

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2014, 08:03:12 PM »
This might be entirely off the topic, but it is related. Before anyone gets excited about cam dynamics and Specs, if your goal is a solid punch of torque and bump in HP.. Remember this, An engines valves open and close so the flow rate at half lift is critical to avoid having issues with fuel standoff or exhaust scavenging problems that lead to lost power or idle issues. The port and valve stem shapes can make a world of difference here, even when the cam is not Spec radical. I'm quoting the Vizard Book on "How to Hop Up the 2.0 liter OHC Engine". In fact , the Book covers the issues with Roller cams and Rockers extensively, and there is much to be considered, given the Build of the motor, and Rpm ranges of usage.

 Can of worms , But Old school N/A dynamics can't be ignored.

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Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2014, 09:20:25 PM »
I have a nice slider for my buggy that's .495 int/exh, 226 dur@.050 & has a 125 centerline. I'd love to try it on the street & see how it feels.
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Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2014, 09:28:48 PM »
I have a nice slider for my buggy that's .495 int/exh, 226 dur@.050 & has a 125 centerline. I'd love to try it on the street & see how it feels.
Go for it.. :D
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Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2014, 11:01:31 PM »
Go for it.. :D

I'm tempted to stick it in the 87 Mustang 2.3 that's going in my wagon with a T5 but since it's my driver I'll be hard pressed to swap it back out if drivability suffers. If it was a weekend cruiser I wouldn't think twice.
 
Instead I'm going with a Ranger roller, Ranger header, 2 1/2" exhaust, D-port carb intake & I think I'm gonna splurge on a brand new Weber 32/36 DFEV in the hopes that I can break 20 mpg & not have to touch this car again until I'm ready to strip it for the parts. That's 2 or 3 years down the road at least.
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Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2014, 11:12:27 PM »
Yeah, daily transportation is not really a good choice for experiments,lol,

Sounds like a good package ought to get good mileage out of that..
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Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2014, 11:50:35 PM »
Yeah, daily transportation is not really a good choice for experiments,lol,

Sounds like a good package ought to get good mileage out of that..

My biggest fear with the big cam in an otherwise stock-ish engine would be a lack of torque in 5th gear below 3000 RPM going up a hill at 65 mph. I think the roller will let it climb a hill in 5th versus having to downshift with the big cam since I plan to keep the 3.18 rear gear. I'm hoping for around 2500 RPM in 5th at 70 mph & 20 mpg out of it.
 
The exhaust is the only thing I'm unsure about. I need to scour the muffler threads for a good choice. I have 2 1/4" & 2 1/2" pipe & everything from glasspacks to Flowmaster mufflers in the garage to choose from. I'm unsure what's the best choice for a non turbo daily driver to squeeze mpg's out of it.
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Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2014, 08:06:07 AM »

My biggest fear with the big cam in an otherwise stock-ish engine would be a lack of torque in 5th gear below 3000 RPM going up a hill at 65 mph. I think the roller will let it climb a hill in 5th versus having to downshift with the big cam since I plan to keep the 3.18 rear gear. I'm hoping for around 2500 RPM in 5th at 70 mph & 20 mpg out of it.
 
The exhaust is the only thing I'm unsure about. I need to scour the muffler threads for a good choice. I have 2 1/4" & 2 1/2" pipe & everything from glasspacks to Flowmaster mufflers in the garage to choose from. I'm unsure what's the best choice for a non turbo daily driver to squeeze mpg's out of it.
Yeah, that's the problem with tiny motors they can make power but you have to buzz the snot out of them, found that out with my Boss302 :-[

Don't want to go too big on the exhaust either, I would think 2 1/4 would do it unless you're going to build something that's really gonna breath heavy???..
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2014, 08:43:26 AM »
   For a motor that will not see over 3000 rpm, I would go with a 2" pipe max. The Ranger header only has a 2" outlet so the 2 1/4" or 2 1/2" pipe would do nothing but kill torque big time. You must remember that a 2300 is a tractor motor compared to todays engines. The Walker Super Turbo is a very good muffler, but only the super turbo. Has a nice sound to it but not to loud. In this case, bigger is not better. BTW all of the glass packs I have looked at have a 2" core regardless of the inlet or outlet size. 2 1/2" in and out does nothing if the core is 2".
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Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2014, 10:11:13 AM »
Didn't measure mine, but yeah don't want to go bigger than the header, be a torque killer for sure.
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Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2014, 11:40:40 AM »
   For a motor that will not see over 3000 rpm, I would go with a 2" pipe max. The Ranger header only has a 2" outlet so the 2 1/4" or 2 1/2" pipe would do nothing but kill torque big time. You must remember that a 2300 is a tractor motor compared to todays engines. The Walker Super Turbo is a very good muffler, but only the super turbo. Has a nice sound to it but not to loud. In this case, bigger is not better. BTW all of the glass packs I have looked at have a 2" core regardless of the inlet or outlet size. 2 1/2" in and out does nothing if the core is 2".

Great, looks like I need to buy some 2" tubing & some mandrel bends. I know we drifted from the original post a bit but if this is about torque & power from a roller then it's related.
 
Is this the muffler?
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Walker-Exhaust-Muffler-Super-Turbo-2-Inlet-2-Outlet-Steel-Aluminized-Each-/390802978706?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5afdac3792&vxp=mtr
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2014, 11:58:23 AM »
That's the right muffler. What makes it so good is there is a curved baffles at the end of the tubing which directs the exhaust to go back in the other direction where most turbo mufflers have nothing to redirect the exhaust. Good muffler.
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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2014, 12:00:57 PM »
Richard one, one, seven, two, seven, six two is correct.  :-) While reducing back pressure is part of the goal you do not want it to also reduce the velocity of the exhaust. So, going too big can be a problem.  And remember at lower RPM's the volume of exhaust will also be less.  Just like we have progressive two barrel carburetors in a more ideal world we would have similar exhausts. A rather small pipe for general driving and another for larger throttle open applications.  Cost and space become factors.

Here is a couple of links regarding pipe sizing:
 http://www.magnaflow.com/07techtips/faq/question10.asp
http://www.exhaustvideos.com/faq/how-to-calculate-muffler-size-pipe-diameter/

 

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2014, 12:07:48 PM »
Richard one, one, seven, two, seven, six two is correct. ???? What am I missing here or is it to another Richard on here?
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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2014, 12:14:08 PM »
The numbers are your name? and you are correct about pipe sizing.
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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2014, 12:18:08 PM »
Richard one, one, seven, two, seven, six two is correct. ??? ? What am I missing here or is it to another Richard on here?

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2014, 12:28:23 PM »
I wonder if offset in/out will hurt. I get 30% off at Advance making this a tad over $40
 
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/dynomax-super-turbo-muffler-17763/18290127-P?searchTerm=dynomax+2%22#fragment-1
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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2014, 06:40:53 PM »
You guys are killing me............ ....

The book referenced above, unless it has been updated, shows virtually nothing about roller cams although it goes into rocker geometry a decent amount. Mine doesn't anyway, and great amounts of it committed to memory just like all the other intensive engine tech books I have. Yunick. Jenkins, Atherton, the like. I like reading Vizard but in some ways he's off the mark to me. Like the part about half lift and carb standoff. Standoff happens when the intake rammed-by-inertia mass hits a closed valve at the end of the intake event. Half lift has no effect there, you're NOT at half lift. If half lift is good then the column should be a bigger one and the effect worse. If bad at half lift standoff (reversion) will be less but no matter, engine's not making any power then. Half lift is valuable because you go through it TWICE versus only once for full lift. It really has no effect at idle either since the idle mixture is so under negative pressure. The engine has trouble pulling in with ANY size hole at that time because it is pulling down against the carb butterflies. That restriction pales the lift at cam, almost any lift past barely open that allows engine to draw against carb will work. The size of valve pocket affects reversion but so does all the rest and most importantly the intake plenum size, it is the reversion absorber. Why the chase for IR intakes on big prostock engines in the early '70s failed so miserably. You can't stop reversion with big individual cylinders and intake runners with no connection between them. The control of air mass becomes harder and harder the greater the size of the mass. Why smaller engines make more hp/cu.in. than big ones do. Simple physics.

I have one other big disagreement with Vizard and that is his idea that if intake speed is to be kept high then exhaust must as well all the way down to make power. No. NO no. Missing something very basic there. WHY if that is true then does every engine on the planet with truly wave/pressure tuned exhaust run BETTER WITH NO EXHAUST PIPE AT ALL, the exhaust exits the header pipe end to SLOW DOWN GREATLY??? Take that idea and go BACKWARDS with it, you can increase in exponential amounts the amount of power a two stroke engine makes by dropping exhaust speed slower in incredible amounts and even by choking it to reverse BACKWARDS. The ideas work on four strokes as well, simply harder to implement them.

Exhaust tuning is nowhere near that simple, it is about speeding up or slowing down the flow to get the effect you want.......... ..........I will submit to you that if you have fast velocity in the tailpipe all the way down you are actually restricting the engine, the velocity itself is proof of that. Velocity goes up with push behind it, that push itself is restriction. Sorry Dave.

More. I have never seen any muffler that makes the flow change direction work as well as a simple straight through muffler that does not change direction. Never. The physics say no, the turn is a flow killer. Of course you will not get the noise control on a straight through you can get with a double U-turn muffler, the reduction in noise is evidence the muffler also kills power. We had a saying at Dad's shop, 'noise is horsepower', while not always true, it is often enough. Engines make more power when you use physics to make them wave tuned, that tuning is with SOUND waves.

Dig up the book 'The Scientific Design of Intake and Exhaust Systems' but be prepared for some boring reading, it is written by quants for quants only.

Offline jeremysdad

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2014, 06:48:21 PM »
Richard one, one, seven, two, seven, six two is correct. ???? What am I missing here or is it to another Richard on here?

You can't slip 'dick' (<--I stand corrected. lol) past the filter. So, it's the formal 'Richard' in posts, and I assume the spelling out of the numbers was meant to be humorous, along those lines.

In short, it was a joke. ;)

Eta (all bolded items): So I'm confused, now, as well. lol

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Re: roller cam?
« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2014, 06:55:13 PM »
On the exhaust theory, I had my glasspack replaced with 2" pipe, straight out the back...sounds fantastic, and feels more peppy.

Can noise equal perception of felt horsepower? Probably.

Does it actually run better? Yes...yes it does.

And it sounds awesome. :)