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Welcome to FordPinto.com, The home of the PCCA => General Help- Ask the Experts... => Topic started by: kerryann on May 06, 2014, 05:28:04 PM

Title: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: kerryann on May 06, 2014, 05:28:04 PM
Starting a new thread because my problem here is just with timing.

I replaced my distributor with a parts store reman.  its a 1980 2.3 with low miles.  ran fine with original distributor but wasnt happy with timing curve.  i broke that distributor trying to get the timing plate off (all screws were seized in the aluminum from electrolysis) to change advance slot.

The new distributor is on the 16L slot with bushing and two light springs.  After getting the #1 cyl to TDC of compression stroke i drop in distributor and make sure rotor is pointing right at plug #1.  it will not fire, tries to but wont.  we have spark on plug checker.  if i jump a tooth ahead clockwise and line them up it will run but surge and die repeatedly.  Any ideas as to whats wrong?  This car ran fine 3 days ago with the original distributor.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: jonz2pinto on May 06, 2014, 06:06:44 PM
if plug wires correct,cam timing correct,and rotor pointing at number one on cap.able to rotate  dist fowards and back.compare pickup in dist to see if teeth line up like old distributor. I know there are different colored plugs on different duraspark modules.may be possible either teeth and pickup in distributor may be off.also wrong dist for your duaspark ignition been awhile since i worked on ignition on a ford or my pinto. Also i have loosened timing belt and turned dist/fuel pump cog to line up distributor. 
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: kerryann on May 06, 2014, 06:15:20 PM
i still have my old distributor.  the reluctor gear sits in the exact same orientation as the new one.  firing order is correct.  cam timing could be off but the car ran perfect before.  i only tried to dig into the distributor to see if i could change the advance slot.  big mistake i guess.  i can get the car to run so i know the thing works but its just way off, surges and dies backfires etc.  when i turn the distributor counterclockwi se just about to the end of adjustment i notice i get no spark through the plug checker while cranking.  im stumped so far.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: jonz2pinto on May 06, 2014, 06:45:21 PM
if you had another stock distrbutor to swap out you could rule out new one.when i got stumped i would recheck eveything for the third or fourth time.double check to see if ground screw in dist is tight.did you change anything else that could affect the way the engine runs? Pcv valve hooked up? 
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: kerryann on May 06, 2014, 07:11:28 PM
didnt change anything.  we replaced valve cover gasket which it badly needed.  i did not touch anything to do with cam timing.  i marked every plug wire on the cap so not to get confused, they are in the correct 1 3 4 2 order.  theres no way ive missed the mark this many times.  there has to be something wrong, is there any chance the almuminum motorcraft "brain box" hanging on the fender is messed up now?  spent an entire day today trying to get this to run,  best i can get is a really labored surging part throttle that backfires through the carb.  not sure if i can come up with a stock duraspark distributor.  does anyone make an HEI style distributor for these cars with vacuum advance that rules out the brain box being bad?  are there any tests i can do to any of this equipment?  i'll check ground.  is the distributor grounded to the motor?  if so could dirt and grease be causing a bad ground where it seats?
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: Pinto5.0 on May 06, 2014, 08:21:34 PM
Is the firing order at the cap going the correct clockwise 1-3-4-2 direction?
 
Are you at TDC 180 degrees out? Try swapping all wires with the ones across from each other & see if it fires.
 
I know those are simplistic questions but even after 35 years I make the dumbest mistakes
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: kerryann on May 06, 2014, 09:20:39 PM
wires are going the right way.  anything is worth a try. whats frustrating me is that this motor ran great 3 days ago with the stock untouched distributor.  i didnt change anything since then besides the distributor itself.  the timing procedure seems to be just as straight forward as any.  im a pro at getting it in and out now ive done it so many times.  it just won't run right.  something is off somewhere, i think its either the distributor itself or if there is anything else in the ignition box or system that can fail.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on May 06, 2014, 09:37:35 PM
Ok, got to thinking about this at the gym and the word "reman" came to mind and I don't know why I didn't think about this before, might be a good thing to check and see if the distributor is out of phase, this article explains it pretty well....

http://www.junkyardgenius.com/ignition/phasing/phasing01.html (http://www.junkyardgenius.com/ignition/phasing/phasing01.html)
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: kerryann on May 06, 2014, 10:08:24 PM
just read that rephasing page.  sounds like something that could be wrong.  however i did check the reluctor position on the shaft with the position with the old distributor and they are identical.  i havent yet pulled this distributor apart.  was hoping to not have to but im considering swapping all the old guts into the new one.

just to be sure here, when you line up the rotor nose with plug terminal #1, this is a 0 degree initial timing setting correct?  you have to turn the distributor body ccw to put advance into it for your 6 or 8 or however many degrees initial timing you want.  this is how i timed the old distributor but im just starting to second guess everything here.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on May 06, 2014, 10:27:13 PM
Yes it would be 0*, and yes you can advance it more and you'll have more initial right off, but if you knew how many degrees is built into the distributor you could set your initial right off.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: kerryann on May 06, 2014, 10:37:57 PM
even checking for phase right now would be near impossible.  when i do get it to run it doesnt like it and surges bad and starts to stall, can't keep a steady rpm at all, i fumbled around with the gun while my gf worked the throttle but couldnt make any sense of where i was at. 

starting to think i should look into aftermarket ignition systems.  not sure what is available for these distributors
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on May 06, 2014, 10:42:35 PM
 You can't run it to check it or you won't be able to see if the spark lines up or not, nothing wrong with a Duraspark distributor it's no different than any other one.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: kerryann on May 06, 2014, 10:49:34 PM
i thought in order to check the phase you need to run the motor?  i can't idle mine at all now and can't hold a steady rpm either.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: amc49 on May 06, 2014, 10:59:06 PM
Nope, checked with motor stopped.

The pickup coil could be bad as well.

Once you foul the plugs it won't run right even if timed right. Fouling could occur in as little as 30 seconds if running bad enough, you got that big carb on there.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on May 06, 2014, 10:59:42 PM
Well, yeah you run it to check it with  the advance but not at idle, just to see if the spark lines up you just turn the power on and watch for the light to flash when you rotate the motor a bit.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: kerryann on May 06, 2014, 11:15:24 PM
74 pinto wagon are you talking about initial timing or reluctor phasing?  i know the light will flash if the motor is turned so that the rotor hits plug 1 on the cap.  if there is advance it should flash at whatever degree on the crank pulley it is set at right?

i think there is an actual problem with something here.  it ran before even when retarded a degree or so.  i know i have gotten the timing within the right range many times earlier today.

plugs could be fouled.  i can get another set.  how can i tell if the pickup coil is bad?  also can the motorcraft ignition box go bad?  how can you tell?
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: amc49 on May 06, 2014, 11:31:48 PM
Easiest thing is to swap the ignition module but they can probably check it, they did at O'Reilly. The wire grommet holding wires to box needs to be blue in color and only six wires coming out of module IIRC. No blue colored wire, that would be an early module (seven wires?) that got modded to drop the blue wire. Either can work but the blue wire must be wired correctly, a transient voltage correction deal there.

The pickup has resistance values, it also can be spun by hand out of the car with a volt meter attached to the wires to look for a signal coming out, either DC (single blips) or AC (accumulative blips to make power) as low a range as you can get it. The airgap needs to be close as well, wider results in crap signal that misfires. The gap may not be adjustable on these like others. You can bend slightly the base plate thinking but the two parts must never touch. Closer is definitely better though.

I do not time with the rotor, rather the pickup/reluctor, lining them up perfectly and then checking the rotor position to back that up. The rotor will be slightly wrong since even at idle speeds some advancing will have taken place. You turn the rotor by hand against the spring to get some idea of the amount you are looking for. Disconnect vacuum advance and tune in timing without that on to simplify issues.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: amc49 on May 06, 2014, 11:46:57 PM
Pickup testing....... .............. ....put voltmeter across the two parallel terminals (orange and purple IIRC) and ohms reading 400 to 800. The one other terminal is ground (black) and should show zero or close when voltmeter put across the terminal and a good ground, either distributor metal body or engine itself if dist is in motor.

FYI, having the reluctor tip half on and half off the pickup center metal is a 7 1/2 degree timing error by itself. You line them up perfectly, that way you are in the center of the voltage switch, the reluctor corner coming close to pickup edge induces a one way voltage, it then induces the opposite way when doing the same as it moves away passing the pickup. An A/C volt spike there. Two impulses go down the wires a plus and a minus, the box tunes out one of them. The voltage is extremely low and the distributor plug harnesses need to make excellent contact known for sure or issue there. A loose terminal inside the plug will drive you nuts.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on May 07, 2014, 07:39:04 AM
What he said, also it has to line up with the cap thus the reason for drilling the cap... The box can be checked but they show failure if any when they get hot they'll actually quit, let them cool down and it'll work again for a while until they quit altogether, that's why I converted to HEI module.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: kerryann on May 07, 2014, 08:33:13 AM
how do you convert to an hei module?  i read through one of your other threads, looks like you put the gm module in the motorcraft cover.  im not that good with wiring so im not sure how to do that.i have dozens of gm modules and hei distributors.

also the reluctor tooth is very close to the magnetic pickup when the rotor points almost to #1.  like amc49 said, i figured this was because of the initial advance that cause it to line up once running.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on May 07, 2014, 09:39:58 AM
It's about as easy at it gets, you can put it in the box to hide it and make it look factory(that's what I did with mine)but you can mount it on a bracket and put it wherever you want.

http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/ignition-articles/492810-tricky-trick-hei-module-inside-duraspark-case.html (http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/ignition-articles/492810-tricky-trick-hei-module-inside-duraspark-case.html)
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: kerryann on May 07, 2014, 09:58:24 AM
after losing some sleep over this and doing some hard thinking i figured out the problem.  I remembered i have a port on the back of the motor on the 2 barrel spacer that i have covered with a vacuum cap.  Sure enough when i approached the thing with a level head this morning it was missing.  it blows off with a backfire, sort of like a blowout protector.  Yesterday in my anger and frustration i didn't notice it shoot off.  found it under the car, put it back on, fired up and in about 30 seconds plugs cleared off and is firing on all cylinders now.  put the gun on it and ended up with 12 initial and 36 total.  motor runs nice now.  havent addressed vacuum advance yet or checked for pinging but i now have a starting point.  Going to get a new set of plugs for sure.

I still may do the HEI swap.  for now though im just happy we're back to normal and with a better ignition curve. 

Now i have to address my brand new valve cover gasket leaking at the front corners, guess i should have used more silicone there.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: Pinto5.0 on May 07, 2014, 10:07:26 AM
Like I said, it's the simple things that tend to trip us up in the worst way.....
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on May 07, 2014, 10:15:26 AM
Glad to hear it's running again, 12 and 36 is great..
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: D.R.Ball on May 07, 2014, 02:29:11 PM
Why fix something that is not broken. The spark box works and it's still readily available, because they do not fail much. The HEI is not known for their heat resistance any way. The bulk of the duraspark box is a built in heat sink Good catch on the vacuum T missing a cap .
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: jonz2pinto on May 07, 2014, 02:42:33 PM
I thought when you changed dist that maybe you knocked loose the pcv and it was running lean.I had one that would not stay hooked up.the hose was too loose from age.I used a zip tie I think to tighten it up.does anybody know of a valve that could be used to let pressure out(and reseat)in case of a cough or backfire.maybe a pcv turned backwards.I know of an aerostar that pops vacuum line off at the firewall.I figured this solution may also help from blowing power valves.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: kerryann on May 07, 2014, 06:14:50 PM
not out of the woods yet.  think we do have a faulty pickup.  it runs good now but if you move the wiring to the distributor around it loses connection.  tried some dielectric grease in the junction but didn't help.  going to return the distributor and try another one.  i really didnt like the way the pickup was wired in, it's not a factory type junction with the rubber block that holds it in the distributor body, its a pile of silicone that has already cracked form moving around.  i could probably put the old pickup in from the old distributor but would be nice to have something new.  hopefully the next one i get has the same curve out of the box.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on May 07, 2014, 09:27:57 PM
Who is the re manufacturer???..
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: kerryann on May 07, 2014, 11:36:03 PM
cheap advance auto "cardone"

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/cardone-distributor-electronic-remanufactured-30-2490/5630452-P?navigationPath=L1*14923%7CL2*15034%7CL3*16062
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on May 08, 2014, 07:50:02 AM
I got the Cardone for mine, works fine just have to change the curve one of these days, maybe next week when I put valve seals in..
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: kerryann on May 08, 2014, 08:16:11 AM
it actually runs well when it does run.  pinging is gone.  im worried that the issue is just in the plug connection.  i know its fine on the box side because i checked the middle socket for power and the test light stays lit not matter which way i contort the wires to try and see if theres a broken wire.

where the three pickup wires go into the side of the distributor there is silicone instead of the formed rubber piece.  the silicone cracked from moving the wires around and you can see a bare copper wire in it.  not sure of they made a connection there and buired it.  either way i have to find where the problem is.

when it stops working the car will just crank with no spark then when it kicks back when you let off the key it sometimes fires and gets a backfire that way.  kind of odd.  74 pintowagon, does your reman have the factory style pickup with that little rubber block around the wires that presses into the distributor or the silicone like mine?
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on May 08, 2014, 08:26:12 AM
Mine looks like factory new, almost sounds like they gave you a core, LOL...
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: kerryann on May 08, 2014, 08:41:59 AM
yea it has a warranty so i think im going to try my luck with a new one.  now i know the 16L slot with a bushing will give a good curve.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on May 08, 2014, 08:49:22 AM
I'd take it back, I always open the box before I leave the store just because it says one thing on the box that don't mean the contents is the same, I bought oil filters before and get home and open the box and it's not what it says on the box..
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: amc49 on May 08, 2014, 09:19:06 AM
And so common now with everybody taking back thousands of parts that 'don't work'. The vendors constantly shoved numbers in O'Reilly's face showing 80% or some number close of all returns claimed not working or damaged have nothing wrong with them at all.They simply rebox and sell them again.  Rather something wrong with the brain that installed them. I watched it personally hundreds of times. No insult intended here at all of course. Just why every part you see now seems to have been handled previously, it HAS BEEN.

'.........didnt like the way the pickup was wired in, it's not a factory type junction with the rubber block that holds it in the distributor body, its a pile of silicone that has already cracked form moving around.'

In that case shoddy rebuild and just like Cardone who does stuff like that all the time. They know full well there were issues with that harness to pickup going bad when oil mist coming up through dist shaft affects the harness to soften rubber, then it begins to short internally. A big problem. Cardone probably testing pickup, it checks as good while not mishandling it and glue it back down to sell part. Probably a correct part shortage in there somewhere as well.

When I see minor issues like that on rebuilds I commonly fix them to not ever go bad again rather than risk getting an even worse part second time around. That commonly happens. Getting where I do something to fix every part I get now, the rebuild quality has totally gone to crap. If you leave it 'up to them' to get it right then expect issues, the Chinese doing this work do not care. Not even a little bit. I watched people who insisted on 100% correct part buy as many as 5 and then give up, not doable. Sure, you're entitled to a 100% good and correct part, but things today are not what they used to be. I've watched someone with that idea firmly in his head lose his butt completely (alternator clutch issues) like with Ford Motor Co. themselves over quality issues on a brand new car. Often it can be better to take the small screwing rather than make it much much worse. In my view if 80% (there's that number again!) of the rebuild job is right I will fix to guarantee the last 20% myself and then drive a thoroughly reliable part for years until it is dead. It saves me patience, Lord knows I need all of that I can get.

I can pull just about any rebuilt part on the planet out of the box and find issues with it. Now that common. You'd be simply amazed at how many like alternators come out with the field connections not cut short like required, they then short out against outer case to make alt not work right out of the box. With starters they commonly screw any connectors on the bakelite too tight and cracked right out of box. Can't count how many I saw like that. Other issues, bushings that easily fall out with no pressfit as required, the list goes on forever.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: amc49 on May 08, 2014, 09:34:17 AM
'Mine looks like factory new, almost sounds like they gave you a core........'

Cardone repeat quality part to part is that bad. No two boxes will have same looking quality in them.

I got bit by the blowing off of PCV rubber plug once way back in the day, since then I use PCV hose with a bolt positively hose clamped in place, ugly, but they withstand all backfires..... ......and to jonz, you don't look to stop backfires with valves, you fix the backfiring issue, not normal for engine to do that. I heard of Holley PVs blowing out left and right but never ran across one in all the years I worked on them, thinking there's a mechanic problem there rather than faulty part. Many people just yank them claiming they're 'blown', I'd simply pick it up and use it in another carb. Worked fine.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: kerryann on May 08, 2014, 10:20:58 AM
amc49, i know what youre saying.  the mechanical end of this distributor (now that i shaved the registered fit surface that goes into the block down a thousandth or so with emery cloth) works very well and has a nice curve to it.  i could get a factory pickup on ebay for cheap but again not sure if it will "look like the picture".  other option is put the old pickup in.  it angers me my "new"  part doesn't work right but you are right, been through it with starters and countless other parts that are junk out of the box.  now i go to a local american's alternator and starter repair shop at his house and have them rebuilt the right way.

i did inspect this setup when i picked it up but just figured thats the best im going to get (as far as the silicone vs rubber block).  put my trust in the fact that it should be tested and work correctly but i should have known better than to do that.

davis unified ignition makes a very nice factory distributor but at $265 i suppose a new pickup if need be is the way to go here.



Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: jonz2pinto on May 08, 2014, 10:06:18 PM
there are reasons i asked about a backfire valve(made the name just now).one is someone from church(with aerostar) would call me to check it out several times.they don't have the money to have it checked out by a mechanic.being fuel injected it is to complicated for me.i am not there when it happens.could be deiseling and motor turning backwards.a back valve might also keep from damaging something important like map sensor.would also help as a temperary tuning device til problem solved.would of helped in the case this topic is about.i do agree it should be a replacement for the proper fix.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: amc49 on May 09, 2014, 03:50:41 AM
The car or whatever does not care how much money one has, they either have enough to fix the problem or............ .............d riving a vehicle entails certain responsibility to keep equipment running correctly or the problems begin. There is no such device as what you expound. Again, you fix the engine to not do it. Routine backfire that will not fix means cam timing is messed up or valve damage. Or exhaust plugged up. Regardless of the money situation. Not trying to be heartless, but the reality of the situation. Planet earth works in certain ways, we either go with those to our better benefit or against them and more trouble ahead guaranteed.

If truly dieseling then you put a solenoid on throttle or replace the one that's not working. You don't have to 'be there', simply ask when it does it, which is when key is turned OFF to kill the engine. Injection usually does not diesel as engine must have fuel to do it, the injectors turn off as engine is killed.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: kerryann on May 09, 2014, 12:46:44 PM
i ended up sending the distributor back.  got another reman this morning.  the box it was in had went through hell but the distributor looked ok.  was on the 21L slot with no bushing so i took it apart.  noticed the tangs for the springs were bent more to increase spring tension.  i bent them back slightly so the coils of the springs just about touch at rest.  switched out the one heavy spring for a light spring off the original distributor.  now have two light springs.  i also had to sand the body down on this one too for it to fit into the block, no biggie though.  put it on the 16L slot and added the plastic bushing from the original distributor.  reassembled with some never seize and put it in the car.  car fired right up, i timed it and have it set at 10 initial 36 total.  with vacuum advance hooked up goes to 32 initial in park idling.  drove it around, no pinging and feels good.  there was definitely a broken wire where they spliced the harness together in the other one that i returned.  hopefully they don't just rebox it and send it back out!

my off idle flat spot is back but that i'll take care of another day when it stops raining out.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: jonz2pinto on May 09, 2014, 02:21:14 PM
Good.I am glad things finally worked out. I have never worked on tuning distributors.I just haven't got past the carb tuning.
Title: Re: Replacement distributor will not run right
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on May 09, 2014, 06:25:10 PM
Glad to hear it's up and running, those numbers are good too..