10 Guests, 0 Users

Author Topic: Question For Gear-Heads Familiar With 1600 Kent Engines  (Read 2590 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline blupinto

  • Pinto PooBAH
  • ******
  • Posts: 3872
  • FeedBack: +63/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • My Original Blu '72

  • Total Badges: 9
    Badges: (View All)
    Topic Starter Signature Mobile User Tenth year Anniversary Poll Voter Windows User 1000 Posts Fifth year Anniversary Photographer
Question For Gear-Heads Familiar With 1600 Kent Engines
« on: April 12, 2014, 07:26:20 PM »
Hi All!  ;D


I know I've been absent for awhile. Last year was a really bad year for me, and this year isn't looking too hot either. However, I'm not here to whine about my life lately... I really need help with something... or at least some understanding.


Ruby RedHot has a crack in her oil pan. I tried to clean the exterior and apply JB Weld, hoping it would hold. It didn't. I have a friend at work who's a dab(?) hand at welding, and he offered to braise the pan for me, which means I need to remove the pan. I looked in the Ford Shop Manual for instructions to do this, and one of the instructions tells me to remove the throttle linkage from the carburetor. Why is this necessary? Back in 2011 I was at the great Fred Morgan's Pinto World and we both worked on adjusting Ruby's valves, which meant removing the valve cover... which meant removing throttle linkage from the carburetor. Well, it was all well and good til I was leaving Parker, AZ for Denver and the starting point of the first Pinto Stampede when I lost power. Turns out that the stupid throttle clip freed itself and I was unable to put it back on by myself. Thank goodness Fred came to my rescue!!! He put a hose clamp in place and I was good to go. That clamp is still there, but I'm afraid to remove it, so I am hoping I don't have to. Any advice is welcome, as long as it's not putting me or my car down. I do that to myself enough. Thank you.
One can never have too many Pintos!

Offline Wittsend

  • Pinto Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2220
  • FeedBack: +241/-0

  • Total Badges: 8
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Mobile User Topic Starter Poll Voter 1000 Posts Linux User Windows User Fifth year Anniversary
Re: Question For Gear-Heads Familiar With 1600 Kent Engines
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2014, 07:52:48 PM »
It would strike me as odd to remove the throttle linkage to remove the oil pan.  If it is an automatic... maybe... the kickdown linkage is in the way?

Where is the crack?  While not the best option if he is brazing maybe you just drain the oil, let is sit a while. A can of cleaner on a nozzle can be aimed through the drain plug to attempt to clean the area behind the crack. Then, braze it attached to the car? Even soldering a metal patch over it might do it.

  The pan is not under pressure or subject to any real stress.  The hardest part would be to keep oil from oozing out the crack and contaminating the repair.  Me, I'd probably put my MIG welder on its lowest setting and hope I didn't blow a hole in the pan.. I mean nothing is really lost because it if didn't work..., you just pull  the pan - anyway.  But if it works your that much further ahead.

Offline blupinto

  • Pinto PooBAH
  • ******
  • Posts: 3872
  • FeedBack: +63/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • My Original Blu '72

  • Total Badges: 9
    Badges: (View All)
    Topic Starter Signature Mobile User Tenth year Anniversary Poll Voter Windows User 1000 Posts Fifth year Anniversary Photographer
Re: Question For Gear-Heads Familiar With 1600 Kent Engines
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2014, 08:05:15 PM »
Thank you. I would REALLY like to not remove the pan at all, but Dave, my friend at work, told me just soldering the outside without really cleaning the inside will set me up for failure. Of course I can't afford to have a hole blown in the pan because I can't find 1600 oil pans anymore. The crack is towards the front of the pan on the bottom. There are a collection of dings there.


The only stress I could think it may have is the heat from hot oil.


Definitely not an automatic. I was thinking as I saw that instruction about disconnecting the throttle linkage how that even relates to an oil pan. lol Maybe because of the fuel pump?


Speaking of pumps... I guess I have to remove the external oil pump too. Only thing is, I can't find gaskets for that.


I'm sorry I didn't spell braze right. I never saw that spelling til now. I never even heard of brazing til Dave told me he could do it.
One can never have too many Pintos!

Offline Clydesdale80

  • Pinto Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
  • FeedBack: +4/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Another Pinto Driver

  • Total Badges: 7
    Badges: (View All)
    Fifth year Anniversary Topic Starter Signature Poll Voter Linux User Mobile User Windows User
Re: Question For Gear-Heads Familiar With 1600 Kent Engines
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2014, 08:32:44 PM »
Where is the crack?  While not the best option if he is brazing maybe you just drain the oil, let is sit a while. A can of cleaner on a nozzle can be aimed through the drain plug to attempt to clean the area behind the crack. Then, braze it attached to the car? Even soldering a metal patch over it might do it..

I wouldn't recommend doing any kind of welding without removing it from the engine.  Tiny metal droplets and bits of slag could be left inside the pan ready to break loose and damage something the next time you start the engine.  Might not be an issue but I'd worry.

I would either take it off to weld or drain the oil, dump in some seafoam or something else to rinse out the remaining oil and drain again to get the crack as clean as possible and then apply some epoxy like pc-11 or maybe jb-weld.

Best of luck, whatever you choose to do
Bought a 1978 hatchback to be my first car.

Offline blupinto

  • Pinto PooBAH
  • ******
  • Posts: 3872
  • FeedBack: +63/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • My Original Blu '72

  • Total Badges: 9
    Badges: (View All)
    Topic Starter Signature Mobile User Tenth year Anniversary Poll Voter Windows User 1000 Posts Fifth year Anniversary Photographer
Re: Question For Gear-Heads Familiar With 1600 Kent Engines
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2014, 09:53:50 PM »
Clydesdale, I tried the JB Weld... the crack came back. Maybe I didn't put enough on it...?  It's a thin coat. I have plenty more.

One can never have too many Pintos!

Offline Clydesdale80

  • Pinto Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
  • FeedBack: +4/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Another Pinto Driver

  • Total Badges: 7
    Badges: (View All)
    Fifth year Anniversary Topic Starter Signature Poll Voter Linux User Mobile User Windows User
Re: Question For Gear-Heads Familiar With 1600 Kent Engines
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2014, 11:58:21 AM »
I'm guessing the JB-weld was softened by oil seeping through the crack and lost its adhesion/durability. That's why I suggested emptying the oil and rinsing it out as well as u can with something to thin the oil.  Then let it cure without contact with oil and after its curing period it should be able to stand up to the oil.  Epoxies are tough once cured completely hardened but contact with oils or solvents while still soft prevents it from reacting properly.

I'm not sure how thick you put it on the first time but just filling the crack won't hold.  I also don't know how big the crack is.  In order to get it to hold you will have to put it on fairly thick 1/8'-3/16" or more if the crack is big, also make sure it's spread over an area surrounding the crack.  I'm not sure how much aesthetics come in to play but its not going to look overly pretty.

Also, don't use JB-stick or JB-quick. Neither is near as strong as the original JB-weld (JB-stick is exceptionally awful).  I prefer PC epoxies over JB because from my experience, they hold up better to grinding and they have just enough flexibility not to be brittle/crackable.
Bought a 1978 hatchback to be my first car.

Offline blupinto

  • Pinto PooBAH
  • ******
  • Posts: 3872
  • FeedBack: +63/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • My Original Blu '72

  • Total Badges: 9
    Badges: (View All)
    Topic Starter Signature Mobile User Tenth year Anniversary Poll Voter Windows User 1000 Posts Fifth year Anniversary Photographer
Re: Question For Gear-Heads Familiar With 1600 Kent Engines
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2014, 01:29:24 AM »
I nixed the idea of removing the pan when I got under the car today and saw that the rear of the oil pan seems to go into the transmission bellhousing. As I'm not experienced enough- or strong enough- to remove a transmission, I went to plan B... which is cleaning the pan REALLY well and applying a thick coat of JB Weld (with the steel in it) onto the crack. I have no real good way of cleaning the inside of the oil pan aside from draining it overnight and carefully sticking paper towel to soak up as much excess oil I can. This engine has an external oil pump.  THe original coating of JB Weld was rather thin.   Thank you, Clydesdale, for the tips. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this'll hold.

One can never have too many Pintos!

Offline Clydesdale80

  • Pinto Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
  • FeedBack: +4/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Another Pinto Driver

  • Total Badges: 7
    Badges: (View All)
    Fifth year Anniversary Topic Starter Signature Poll Voter Linux User Mobile User Windows User
Re: Question For Gear-Heads Familiar With 1600 Kent Engines
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2014, 12:08:02 PM »
good luck, I hope it holds this time.
Bought a 1978 hatchback to be my first car.

Offline amc49

  • PCCA VIP
  • Pinto Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 1256
  • FeedBack: +242/-1
  • Another Pinto Driver

  • Total Badges: 4
    Badges: (View All)
    Topic Starter Poll Voter Windows User 1000 Posts
Re: Question For Gear-Heads Familiar With 1600 Kent Engines
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2014, 02:20:22 PM »
I've epoxied hundreds of things and what you're doing there will not have a high reliability attached. Epoxy is tough but 9 times out of 10 it will come loose from like a steel pan because of the different expansion rates between the plastic and the metal there, in short, the whole lump comes loose after a while. Not to mention you MUST get to the backside to guarantee it BONE DRY (last treatment in acetone or alcohol or forget doing it) for epoxy to stay stuck. Hot oil will leach under epoxy to gradually let it come loose, the temp changes encourage it. Already leached if the patch was not done on bone dry surface. Commonly on a patch like that I have drilled holes through pan and bolted or riveted down sheet metal patches to both sides with epoxy trapped underneath, that can last for many years. If crack is on a flat you can add an external metal patch over the glue to stretch out the length of time it lasts.

I use epoxy a lot but the common uses most use it for are mostly miserable failures, I watched it 9 times out of 10 at the parts store all day long. You have to put some thought to it rather than just slather it on there and hope for the best. Some applications simply will not work and based on conditions there. Most fail simply by not being clean enough.

You absolutely cannot braze the pan with it on car, do so and find out one of several reasons why. BTDT. For one you'll catch the remaining oil (even if drained) in motor on fire.

Maybe if the Pinto is one with mechanical rod linkage and not cable? Having to lift engine to remove pan might damage the linkage.

Offline dick1172762

  • Vintage Pinto Racer
  • PCCA Management Board
  • Pinto Sr. Master
  • ******
  • Posts: 2623
  • FeedBack: +362/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm a llama!

  • Total Badges: 7
    Badges: (View All)
    Topic Starter Signature Poll Voter Windows User 1000 Posts Tenth year Anniversary Fifth year Anniversary
Re: Question For Gear-Heads Familiar With 1600 Kent Engines
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2014, 03:38:11 PM »
I've seen cracks on aluminum pans mig welded in the car so why not steel? Isn't going to hurt to try and fire is easy to prevent by firing off a co2 fire bottle down the breather / oil filler neck. I have welded gas tanks that way and filling them 99% full of water are the only two ways that will work.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Offline amc49

  • PCCA VIP
  • Pinto Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 1256
  • FeedBack: +242/-1
  • Another Pinto Driver

  • Total Badges: 4
    Badges: (View All)
    Topic Starter Poll Voter Windows User 1000 Posts
Re: Question For Gear-Heads Familiar With 1600 Kent Engines
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2014, 08:31:31 PM »
Heliarc used on aluminum does not raise nearly the heat like brazing does. The aluminum radiates it like lightning. The braze needs like a 6 inch patch (on sheet metal) at like 1600 degrees, the heliarc only maybe 2 inch. The braze also slowly comes up to that temp, the heliarc does the weld instantly, no 3-4 minutes of heavily heating the part. The heat radiation on brazing is the killer there. The whole local area there must be red orange hot. Enough time to cook gaskets and seal if they are anywhere close.

Actually Dad once brazed an AMC pan crack by draining, flushing with acetone, blowing the acetone out with wet vac for two hours then brazed on a DEEP sump pan with the vac still going to purge vapors from ignition. That patch spot was like a solid 15 inches from the closest gasket.

Stock pan will be much closer to burnable parts.

You can use like acetone followed by easy to find 91% isopropyl alcohol and final rinse with water and then using wet/dry vacuum again to purge you can do anything to a gas tank. The water in tank will seep into the weld to scrap it unless you put tank just right, the purging allows for any position.