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Author Topic: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????  (Read 21693 times)

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Offline gaeliccouple

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Performance trick: Advancing the cam shaft one tooth on the timing belt???

I was talking with my mechanic and he regaled me with a story of how he had a 1980s vintage Mustang with at 2300cc. He claimed he advanced the cam shaft one tooth on the timing belt and it yielded a significant increase in horsepower. He cautioned that by doing so the engine would now be able to rev to very high RPMs it was not designed for and that if the driver wasn’t very mindful of the RPMs the engine would tear itself apart!   

Have any of you actually done this or heard of it before? He suggested I try it with my Pinto. I think I will pass

Offline slowride

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2013, 03:51:41 PM »
You might start looking for another mechanic. Changing cam timing slightly moves the peak torque... advance the cam to slightly lower the peak torque, retard it, raise the peak (higher rpm). 1 tooth is too much advance for most any engine. Maybe if you milled your head alot and used the stock emissions retarded cam......

Offline gaeliccouple

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2013, 06:15:29 PM »
The only thing I can figure is that perhaps in the late 1970s and 1980s Ford engineers had to retard cam timing in order to detune the 2300cc to meet emission standards and that perhaps advancing the cam timing brings it closer to the ideal position for the sack of performance versus emissions. Just a theory!

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2013, 06:33:17 PM »
I changed the belt in mine and I got one from the Zone(gotta be China junk)and it will not time straight up, it's either 4 advanced or 4 retarded, so I just left it at 4 advanced.
Art
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Offline 71HANTO

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2013, 07:45:46 PM »
I just received this adjustable cam pulley today from Evil-Bay. This is the right way to adjust the cam timing. This one pictured is for a 2.0L but there are also ones to fit the 2.3L. If you have access to a dyno, you can dial it in for max power.
 
71HANTO
 
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Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2013, 09:02:39 PM »
How many degrees does it have for adjustment?..
Art
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Offline amc49

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2013, 06:40:48 AM »
Just now counted teeth on that sprocket and 9.5 degrees per tooth, or, too much. You generally never go more than 6 degrees or you got cam timed wrong. I have never seen an engine where you could move by a full tooth and have it run right much less optimum. Why jumping by one tooth will show up as errant running. Mechanic was wrong anyway, when you advance cam the rpm range DROPS not increases. You retard for more rpm.

You don't retard by a set number of degrees in a guess anyway, cam comes with a card that has you correct engine for true TDC then you put cam on mark suggested by grinder and then move away either way from that 'ideal' point. Generally in terms of lobe center, use intake lobe center since that is the most felt point when timing is changed. Intake can run from anywhere from 104 to 114 lobe center, the lower number would be for extreme like low rpm pull off turns dirt track to the high number being used for dead stock cam with low lift to still be able to pull out some top rpm with no lift. High-perf will close up to 106-110 depending on use. Some depends as well on lift and where exhaust cam is located, you cannot separate the two since on same cam. Not like twin cam stuff which is so much more adjustable.

Offline 71pintoracer

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2013, 07:31:18 PM »
Wow....haven't been here in a while but it's nice to see that old myth is still alive! However, if you start with a 4 degree retarded "emissions" cam and the head has ever been milled one tooth might be close hahaha! Really though, one of the most noticeable power gains you can do to a stock Pinto is to degree the cam. Most of the time they are retarded from the factory so even getting it "straight up" will make a big difference that you can actually feel. I posted a thread  with pics once on how to do it, it's pretty easy. Maybe someone can find it and put up a link. Or it could be gone, I couldn't find it.
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

Offline 71pintoracer

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2013, 07:33:46 PM »
Wow I really have been gone a long time. Picture of my car in my avatar is gone!  :(
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

Offline dga57

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2013, 07:40:25 PM »
Wow I really have been gone a long time.

Well, welcome back - we've missed you!  And, by the way, it was good to see you Wednesday morning... it had been a while!
Dwayne :)
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Offline oldkayaker

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2013, 06:07:39 AM »
71pintoracer, this may be the link you were thinking of.
http://www.fordpinto.com/your-project/cam-timing-101/msg74989/#msg74989
Jerry J - Jupiter, Florida

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2013, 07:23:21 AM »
What brand of belts you guys use, is there any to stay away from?, and has anyone ever check the accuracy of the pointer on the outer cover?, I've seen quite a few(on other vehicles)that were off, of course the dampener can be off too the outer ring can/will move, I always mark them and check it anytime I set timing.
Art
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Offline 71pintoracer

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2013, 06:40:00 PM »
Thanks old, that's the one. And yes, the pointer can be off so if you are installing a performance cam you need to find absolute TDC, use the spec sheet and a degree wheel. This is more for a stock engine and will get it pretty darn close. You can really feel the performance gain and most stock engines I have checked are retarded. You can even modify the stock pulley by filing the slot and making a shim. Believe me, it's worth the effort.
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2013, 07:06:02 PM »
Thanks, kinda figured it wouldn't be any different than any others, guess it's time to find absolute TDC and make up my own pointer, stock or performance don't matter cam should be degreed anyways.
Art
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Offline Henrius

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2013, 01:28:42 PM »
Had a 2.0L Pinto that could never go up a steep hill except in first gear. We discovered that when the cam belt had been replaced, they set cam timing one notch off by accident. When we corrected this, I could go up any hill in 2nd gear!
1973 Pinto Runabout with 2.0 Liter & 4 speed. My first car, now being restored!

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2013, 01:57:37 PM »
Makes a huge difference when a cam is out of time.
Art
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2013, 06:14:50 PM »
Ford retarded the cam on all of their V-8 back in the 70's. They did it with the crank sprocket. All you had to was change the sprocket with a late 60's or early 70's, and bingo!!!! That gutless wonder would now smoke the tires. Its so much harder to pass the smog laws now, their all doing it now day no doubt.
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Offline amc49

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2013, 11:09:56 PM »
I haven't run one of these in a good while now but beware of the belt teeth, some have square cut teeth and some are rounded, you need to run the belt tooth that matches the sprocket. It may be an issue since around'98 or so they started making elastomer hypalon belts that last about twice as long (120K miles vs. 60K) as before but thinking they may not be correct tooth, CHECK IT. Thinking earlier models may be square, the later rounded. Someone correct me if otherwise. Thinking if one changed sprockets to match the later belt it would last much longer. I am not firm though on how long they made 2.3s or the later 2.0 Ranger motor.

I always ran Gates and never had any early fails but I changed religiously around 60K on stockers. If you run big cam/springs you may have to go more often than that.

If you have asymmetrical lobe timings that linked earlier post method will not work, it is really the backyard way anyway. Correct is to measure with dial indicator like 1 mm. or so into start of valve lift and then same at the end, figure the middle from it and your centerline number. Some cams use .040", some use .050" depending on the cam maker. Look at the cam card, always specified.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2013, 06:34:11 AM »
Didn't know they made them rounded mine are square, Gates always been the best and I probably should change mine out again because this one I got from the Zone will just not time right, but then again the tab and dampener could be off too, gonna have to find absolute TDC first and see where I'm at, guess I'll dig out an old spark plug and make a piston stop.
Art
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2013, 10:15:32 AM »
Late model Rangers use both round tooth pulleys and belts. Plus they are wider and made out of better stuff. This is what all the smart racers use now. You have to use all the Ranger parts to make it work. And no, it will not fit under you stock timing cover! I guess you could use the Ranger cover maybe. Or no cover at all like I do. So much easy'r to work on and O so cool when "ricers" look under your hood, (just after you smoked them at the local autocross).
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2013, 11:53:52 AM »
"O so cool when "ricers" look under your hood, (just after you smoked them at the local autocross)."

I wonder in Japan if they call us "Wheaters" or "Corners?"  Just thinking.

Tom

Offline pintosopher

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2013, 04:15:28 PM »
"O so cool when "ricers" look under your hood, (just after you smoked them at the local autocross)."

I wonder in Japan if they call us "Wheaters" or "Corners?"  Just thinking.

Tom
Since you "smoked " 'em at an Autocross, I would think we're Just "Corners"  ???  Oh , the good old day's in the 80's Bay area pylon scene: Mike Stevens in his CSP Pinto was a real threat. And his Pro Solo launches were a work of Art. I hope he's still around and keeping compact Fords running.
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Offline 71pintoracer

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2013, 05:31:50 PM »


If you have asymmetrical lobe timings that linked earlier post method will not work, it is really the backyard way anyway.
(sigh......) I tried to make it as clear as possible. Maybe I didn't. If you have a STOCK CAM, this will get your cam timing pretty damn close. If you have a PERFORMANCE CAM you should have used the cam card, dial indicator and degree wheel in the first place. The power gain from say a 2.3 automatic with a STOCK CAM that is 6* retarded to 2* advanced is unreal. Been there done that. Many times. The people that I've done this for are amazed. It's simple, easy, cheap & doesn't take much time to do. And you can FEEL THE DIFFERENCE. So if you are working in the backyard, give it a try. Or not. Spend your hard earned money on a crappy Ranger header (? yea right) expensive intakes and big carb that does nothing but run rich and cut your gas mileage in half. Whatever. I tried.
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2013, 09:15:44 PM »
(sigh......) Spend your hard earned money on a crappy Ranger header.
I was thinking of the Ranger header heard they worked?, my stock manifold has a crack and I know it's gonna have to be replaced pretty soon, what would you recommend?.. Thanks..
Art
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2013, 10:04:48 AM »
Theirs not a thing wrong with a Ranger header!!!! First of all, their stainless steel, second of all, they FIT, third, their CHEAP, forth, they will out last the car. Only thing you need to do is remove the stands off  that allow Ford to use the same long bolts that the used on a cast iron manifold. Take them off and use short bolts. Looks much better! Most Pintos I've seen have WAY too big a pipe running off the header. Fine if you take it to 6000 rpm each time you shift, but no good when you leave a stop light at 1500 rpm. 2" pipe is all you need on a street driven Pinto. Cheap and many mufflers to pick from. And the junk yards are FULL of them at $30 to $50 each. Get the down pipe when you can, to use on your car. And best of all, you will not look and sound like a "RICER". And a Ranger header will fit in my wife's oven, so I can paint it with VHS and bake it at 400 degs to cure it. All in all, a winner!
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Offline 71pintoracer

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2013, 12:26:17 PM »
All good and valid points Dick. I guess it's better than a cracked stock manifold for the weight savings if nothing else. But a header? Have you ever flow tested one? hahahahha! But I digress. I didn't realize they were so plentiful now. And cheap. :)
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2013, 08:45:29 PM »
Thanks guys, looks like the Ranger header is the way to go then, this is the wife's car and all she cares about is mileage no hot rodding, be a miracle if rpm's reach 3000, lol..
Art
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Offline amc49

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2013, 11:32:24 PM »
I ran with no timing cover for a good while, after doing it longterm the pulleys will round off from dust wearing parts. If doing it again I would be using a cover, it helps seals last longer as well. It did make for questions though and looked neat. And could change a belt in maybe five minutes.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2013, 06:34:06 AM »
I was wondering about the dirt factor too, thought about cutting the top section off and keep the bottom for the pointer but I think I'll just leave it alone, does look better without it though.
Art
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: Performance trick: Advancing the cam one tooth on the timing belt?????
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2013, 09:46:49 AM »
All good and valid points Dick. I guess it's better than a cracked stock manifold for the weight savings if nothing else. But a header? Have you ever flow tested one? hahahahha! But I digress. I didn't realize they were so plentiful now. And cheap. :)
The junk yards around here(NW AR)are full of them. Who's going to buy them. Ranger owners already have them. That leaves us guys. I've won quite a few races in Autocross and Road Racing  with a Ranger header. Been the year end champ in both too. And you don't have to worry about dragging it on a lowered Pinto. I love them as you can tell. Every one needs to understand that a 2300 L motor is really a tractor motor, not 10000 rpm ricer. IT'S BUILT FOR TORQUE!!!! Nothing  else. Use it for that and you'll love it.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.