PINTO CAR CLUB of AMERICA
Welcome to FordPinto.com, The home of the PCCA => General Help- Ask the Experts... => Topic started by: 74 PintoWagon on June 24, 2013, 10:37:46 PM
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Well, since I had to order the water pump I thought I'd look at the ignition and a few tests shows it's all junk and it's a wonder it even ran at all, so I'm thinking of ditching the points did a search here and all I can find is old threads on electronic ignition(maybe I searched wrong)and what I read on Pertronix not sure I want to go that route or not?, since it's the wife's car and she'll be driving it to work(graveyard)all the time last thing I want is a call saying the car died and she's sitting on the side of the road in the middle of the night, so I was wondering what you guys all run that's been the most reliable?, I was looking at this deal from Pertronix and wondered if they improved over the years and was worth using??.. Any comments, recommendation s appreciated.. Thanks guys...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ignitor-Electronic-Ignition-Module-Coil-for-Ford-2300cc-Motorcraft-Distributor-/330616645310?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Year%3A1974|Make%3AFord|Model%3APinto&hash=item4cfa49a6be&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ignitor-Electronic-Ignition-Module-Coil-for-Ford-2300cc-Motorcraft-Distributor-/330616645310?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Year%3A1974|Make%3AFord|Model%3APinto&hash=item4cfa49a6be&vxp=mtr)
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The Ford Duraspark works great and is pretty cheap all you need is a75 and up distributor, ignition box, also cheap and a wiring diagram which I got off of Racer Walsh website or several other sources. Not too hard to install.
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Duhh, never thought about Duraspark, thanks Jerry I'll look into that..
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I have an MSD-6A & billet distributor for my sons '80 but it's not cheap. I spent close to $200 for used ones but wiring is simple.
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Thanks, not really a fan of MSD though, sure wish there was enough room I'd just put an HEI in and forget about it..
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Seen a lot of dirt racers run a stock Ford distributor with a GM HEI module tacked on the side. Seems to work good. i've used a MSD 6AL with both a stock and a billet dist. Couldn't tell any difference really. My 2.0 has an old Mallory YL with a Mallory E-spark conversion. I really like this one. Cranks great, runs clean. Actually had engine start once just by turning ignition on!
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I have run a Pertronix unit in my 67 mustang for about 19 years now and have had no issues with it. It has never let me down.
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Seen a lot of dirt racers run a stock Ford distributor with a GM HEI module tacked on the side. Seems to work good. i've used a MSD 6AL with both a stock and a billet dist. Couldn't tell any difference really. My 2.0 has an old Mallory YL with a Mallory E-spark conversion. I really like this one. Cranks great, runs clean. Actually had engine start once just by turning ignition on!
Thanks, HEI module sounds like a good deal, I did see an article somewhere about that a while back, someone used an old Duraspark box and gutted it and used it for the HEI module good way to hide the module I guess, would have to get a later electronic distributor for that to work though but it would be cool to keep it looking factory..
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I have run a Pertronix unit in my 67 mustang for about 19 years now and have had no issues with it. It has never let me down.
That's what I'm looking for, since my distributor is in good shape I may go this route.. Thanks...
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Well, doing some thinking I decided I want to keep things looking factory but yet I've always liked the reliability of an HEI, so I'm just gonna pick up a later distributor and try and find a junk box to put the module in. Thanks for all the ideas guys.. 8)
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Well, got a chance to work on the car a bit, got my ignition built and mounted and a reman Dura-Spark distributor and coil, fired instantly and it was night and day to the points, idles nice and I could actually adjust the carb some, lol. So now that it's all together it's time to drive it and see what the next step will be.
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b131/GoFastRacer/74%20Pinto%20Wagon/HEI.jpg)
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b131/GoFastRacer/74%20Pinto%20Wagon/IgnitionBox.jpg)
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b131/GoFastRacer/74%20Pinto%20Wagon/Dura-SparkampCoil.jpg)
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b131/GoFastRacer/74%20Pinto%20Wagon/AllPutTogether.jpg)
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Surely you put heat transfer compound on the back of the module right? You better have.
I actually put two of those on an inline four motorcycle many years ago and they worked great.
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Most definitely, and since the box isn't flat I put some on the back side of the plate on the ribs also. Guess I'll take it for a ride today and see how everything works.
It's kinda hard to beat an HEI..
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This thread makes me jealous of the 2.3 guys. :) lol I think when I get to that modification, I'll go Pertronix. Seems like it's cheaper than the Dura-Spark upgrade for us 2.0 fellas, since we have to source our distributors from the UK.
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A 2.3 distributor won't fit a 2.0???.. ??? ???
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As far as I am aware, no. :)
2.0 dissy: http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search/Distributor/02780/C0334.oap?model=Pinto&vi=1135134&year=1973&make=Ford
2.3 dissy: http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search/Distributor/02780/C0334.oap?model=Pinto&vi=1135189&year=1976&make=Ford
2.0 looks like a VW distributor. Aren't we so lucky? lol
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Wow it does look different, never got into these motors before(I'm an FE guy,lol)I thought the only difference was bore and stroke, learn something new every day. That's good to know, I'm looking at another one now and it has a 2.0, I may just pass on it now..
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They're awesome motors, don't get me wrong. Just have a few more challenges that the 2.3 doesn't have. :)
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Oh I'm sure they are, I'm still thinking about it, lol..
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It would not be hard to put a magnetic pickup in the 2.0 if the distributor wasn't so dang small in OD, no room inside. I bet a stepper could do it though. I took Mopar early electronic innards and put them in an AMC distributor back in the mid '70s as electronic for AMC was unobtanium. Used an Accel competition dual point distributor with points removed and had to cut the point cam down to press the reluctor on, and used an Accel Supercoil. That was one hot ignition brother.
Got a Ford Duraspark distributor for AMC V-8 if I ever build another engine.
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I was kinda wondering if there was a magnetic pickup out there that could be made to fit, gotta be other small type distributors out there with magnetic pickups I would think???..
Been using Accel for over 30yrs never had one failure yet, pretty good stuff I would say.
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Well, took the car out yesterday and put about 50mi on it, new ignition is awesome thing starts with just a touch of the key no cranking at all, starter should last forever, lol. New cooling system is working good and no leaks, gotta put a gauge on it though don't seem like it's getting too warm going by how much heat coming out of the heater. Carb has some issues though, it's way too fat and mileage ain't too good and it has a lean condition just off idle, but I know the idle jets are wrong just by the adjustment of the air mixture screw, I just wish I knew what this carb came off of and what it supposed to have for jets can't tell if anyone messed with it before?, worst part is there is no markings on the main or idle jets never seen that before?, only ones that have numbers on are the air bleeds, so this ought to be fun figuring this out, lol. But before I get into that I need to put valve seals on I don't think there's any left and the way it is you can't really read the plugs. I'm also looking at another wagon supposedly converted to a "Cruiser" for myself.
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How many turns in/out is your mixture screw? Lean off idle could be caused by having the speed screw adjusted in too far to compensate for a too small idle jet.
I've been doing some research this morning, and I believe the electronic distributors I've been looking at from the UK are actually just converted via a Pertronix style kit, not actual stock Dura-Spark style electronic. Converted to USD, they are appx $120, which gives you a brand new distributor with the conversion kit, (appears new rotor and cap included). At this point, I would just buy the Pertronix kit for $75, since my distributor is a fresh reman. (D'oh!)
Link to eBay part: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Powerspark-Electronic-Distributor-Ford-Escort-Capri-Cortina-Transit-Pinto-Blocks-/121032996459
Get one now if you want one, the conversion for Great British Pound to USD is .2 lower than when I bought my cam last year, and looks like it's going back up again. D'oh! again. lol :)
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Right now the mixture screw is almost one turn out, 1/4 turn each way and rpm drops.
I notice that distributor only has 2 wires coming out of it instead of 3 like the Dura-Spark?, something else strange looking at the application chart, it shows it fits 1.3 to 3.0 engines?.
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It's a conversion, just needs + and - hookups. And Ford Europe took the 2.0 we all know and love, and shrank/expanded it for diff applications. Yes, I spend waaaayyy too much time perusing British car forums (which results in lots of English slang jokes that nobody but me finds funny around the house, but whatever). lol
Try backing your speed screw all the way out (next step easier with a mirror), then turn it in until it just touches the contact pad, then 1 full turn in from there. Set your mixture screw 2 turns out, and play from there, MIXTURE FIRST. I bet your speed screw is too far in, which exposes the off idle enrichment circuit, but at idle. If that makes no change, your idle jet is too big.
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Hmmm, guess it don't need a module then, that's cool. I can relate to the British jokes too,lol...
I'm pretty sure the speed screw isn't too far in but I'll take another look, in fact I'll just start over and reset the thing it's no big deal..
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Ok, just reset everything, speed screw just under 1 turn and mixture crew 1 turn, idles nice but bring it up gently about 50rpm and it's real rough, about 500rpm more and it smoothens right out, accelerator pump is good can whack the throttle from idle and no stumble.
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Flat spot just off idle can be either rich OR lean.......... ............yo u get to figure out which.
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Yeah I know, sounds on the lean side though?, thing is I need to find a chart somewhere that lists jet numbers and hole sizes, jets in this carb has no numbers on them so all I can go by is hole sizes, right now I wouldn't know what number jets to get.
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You really cannot tell rich/lean by the sound of the miss.
When you put ANY carb on, the first thing you ensure is that it gets the idle speed screw preset so that the butterfly or throttle blade is exactly right at the edge of uncovering the transfer holes or slot, so that even five or ten thousandths of movement instantly begins to uncover the slot or holes. That is the correct dead on idle setting and better than one turn on the screw which if not checked means nothing. With the idle at that point then you have the full range of off idle fuel flow and instantly. If the car does not idle at proper speed then, you have to add airhole to fake motor into thinking blades open further than they are. Having carb preset like that before you bolt it down then helps much to determine what is happening when you roll throttle open, since you already have a known point to start with. If you don't know, then you do not know whether the resultant miss is before you hit transfer or during or even past all of it. In other words doing it definitely the hard way with much more confusion.
Just looked at a cutaway of the idle circuit on a regular 5200, it clearly shows that the mixture set screw sets idle fuel at the curb idle hole only and NOT the transfer slot. The transfer gets the full idle jet fuel, the curb hole lower gets the mixture set fuel, two things to keep sorted out there. If the mixture screw is only one turn out that may well mean too RICH off idle, the screw is in very far to cut way back meaning a LOT of fuel coming though idle jet. Get somebody to go back at tailpipe and look to see if any black smoke comes out when you slowly roll the throttle on to get into your rough running area. And of course that thinking only valid if you have the starting butterfly position as I just said. If you are into the transfer, then you may be too rich because of that, or lost. You're now adjusting mixture based on incorrect throttle blade position, or wrong.
Proper dead idle is with all idle fuel coming through the curb hole only and none through the transfers. But the transfers should then work instantly as soon as blade gets moved.
Why I use a fitting welded on exhaust somewhere to insert a narrow band O2 sensor, you can tell by the output which way to go. Screw all that guessing.
More. Just where is the idle speed setting for the OTHER barrel? If it even has one. There is usually another idle circuit in the other barrel. If 1/1 ratio and both open together, you may have complicating issues from that side too. The mixture may not be settable there, but the position of the butterfly there could be adding to the problem. Most people never even think about that one. Generally the other barrel sets just like the front, or right at any slight movement the transfer exposes, but just barely covered up at dead idle. The aircrack around the throttle plate then usually will work fine with the 'front' barrel, or the one with the mixture screw. Lots of time the other will be almost shut, which makes you have to open the one causing you trouble more, or the source of your trouble to begin with. Like on a 4 barrel, you want balance, throttle blades almost closed have to open a bit before fuel flows and troubles there. All 4 need to be cracked open a bit already, it establishes initial slight flow so that it does not have to be started up, making off idle smoother. Fuel circuits already in motion can react quicker to changes.
Try getting the idle speed screw deeper to see if you can get the idle speed fast enough to get into your bad running spot. If so, then while it is there then screw your mixture screw SHUT and see if the bad running gets better or worse. That may give you an indicator of which way the idle jet needs to go. I've been known to take extremely small OD pieces of wire and stick them into the idle jet to cut the size of the hole back, I lock the piece of wire in a side airbleed hole to keep it in place. If you know the size of the wire and the size of the idle jet hole, then a little calculating of the two areas and subtract one from the other can tell you what new size jet you need.
Sorry to choke you there......... .........
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No choking here, lol, primary and secondary is progressive and no mixture screw on the secondary, secondary plate just has a stop screw and set just cracked, issue is strictly on the primary side, already planned on the wire trick in the jet, been doing that for ages,lol, still need to find a chart though..
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Just cracked can often mean many things. There is actually only one correct place for it. Attention to detail off idle corrects many things, just saying. I never accepted 'just cracked' at all when setting up tunnel ram idles and off idle, you just can't do it because everyone's idea of cracked is different. Meaning I ALWAYS yanked the carbs to see where they were before ever starting to tune.
No insult intended or implied of course.
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No insult taken I know exactly what you mean, just a figure of speech. Done many a tunnelrams over the years and know all about initial setups.
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Then you know how between MSD and careful carb setup you can get one idling at like 600 rpm just like a stock car, even with .800 lift roller cam and twin 1400 cfm Dominators.... .............. ...on the 720CI prostock fatblock Camaro my brother used to drive it sounded ticking over that slow like individual sticks of dynamite going off in the 4 inch collectors, man that thing hurt your ears at IDLE. Even racking engine off dead idle the tach pulled up so quick you couldn't follow it with your eye. 0-9000 rpm instantly, my brother said it was virtually impossible to not overrev engine in every gear and yanking Lenco sticks as fast as he possibly could. Car held world's fastest top speed prostock record in IHRA there for a bit in late '80s, he ran it in Texas Prostock Association heads up match racing. Jerry Haas car. With 3 stage nitrous it ran high sevens at 205+, car still trying to spin tires off track going into fourth gear. I always thought that boy was a bit stupid. He loved it. That car was the last of a string of like five pro cars driven by him, the cars' owner was a guy who started by bringing us 454 dragboats to hop up, he had tons of cash and owned a big string of convenience stores.
Until MSD came along I never dreamed you could get those big muthas to idle that low. So low I used to joke about knocking the cam lobes off simply by how hard the car rocked when every cylinder went off.
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Yeah, ProStock is a world of it's own, more R&D goes on there than anywhere else. And those carbs are not quite out of the box items either, lol..
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Hey guys, what do you guys run for an ignition curve on a stock 2.3?, all I can find is initial timing nothing on the total on mechanical and/or vacuum. With this new reman distributor I got all I get is 30* total with the vacuum at 2500rpm with 16* initial, that don't sound right at all to me???..
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30 degrees total sounds about right.
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30 degrees total sounds about right.
Really??? that's all they run for total?, and all I see for initial is 6-8* but this thing needs 16* to get 30*, not that it's bad it still starts with the touch of the key just seems strange. I was thinking 12* initial with 36-38* total all in by 2500 on the centrifical and another 10* on vacuum on the cruise, of course you have to have full manifold vacuum for that. But if 30* is where they run best and get the best mileage guess I won't mess with it then. Thanks for the info..
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My 76 calls for 20 initial & I've revved it with the timing light hooked & got 30 total not under load. I have it at 16 initial now because I can't seem to cure my valve pinging or run on.
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I just reworked the head on mine and it likes I'm guessing about 16 BTD as well. Same place it was before head rework. I need to learn to use the advance function n my timing light so I can see exactly where it is.
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From AMC49 "When you put ANY carb on, the first thing you ensure is that it gets the idle speed screw preset so that the butterfly or throttle blade is exactly right at the edge of uncovering the transfer holes or slot, so that even five or ten thousandths of movement instantly begins to uncover the slot or holes"
Finally got around to adjusting the carb and this step really does the trick. I set the speed at about 1.5 turns then played with the mixture screw with a vacuum gauge attached. After getting vacuum at it's highest with mixture I actually backed the speed down and vacuum increased which seems counter intuitive but I think it has to do with covering up the Transfer hole and drawing just through the Idle mixture adjustment. After that I did a little more fine tunning with the idle screw.
Sure did smooth out idle and low speed throttle transition as well as overall drivability.
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I just reworked the head on mine and it likes I'm guessing about 16 BTD as well. Same place it was before head rework. I need to learn to use the advance function n my timing light so I can see exactly where it is.
I have a dial back timing light so checking timing is easy. Set the dial where you want the timing & line the damper mark up to zero. Checking total advance is as easy as revving the engine & turning the dial until the damper reads zero then just read the number off the dial to know total advance.
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My 76 calls for 20 initial & I've revved it with the timing light hooked & got 30 total not under load. I have it at 16 initial now because I can't seem to cure my valve pinging or run on.
Wow 20* initial, guess I been around the big V8's too long, LOL, guess I'll play with timing a bit then, it seems to run decent but it's not that peppy and mileage ain't that good.
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I have a dial back timing light so checking timing is easy. Set the dial where you want the timing & line the damper mark up to zero. Checking total advance is as easy as revving the engine & turning the dial until the damper reads zero then just read the number off the dial to know total advance.
All I use is a dial back, wouldn't be without one.
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All I use is a dial back, wouldn't be without one.
I have a good plain light that sits in the drawer. Unless my dial back dies I doubt I'll ever use it again.
I can't get my mileage over 17 even with the NOS carb. I had one tank that gave 21 mpg then back to 16-17 max. It want's to bobble & almost stalls when coming to a stop & run-on is bad. Something isn't right but I don't have time to figure it out. Even though it's NOS & never had gas in it I'm betting a 36 year old gasket or diaphragm gave out someplace. I'm definitely NOT a carb guru. I can tune a good carb pretty well but when the carb acts up I start whizzing in the wind & hoping I stumble on the solution.
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I have a good plain light that sits in the drawer. Unless my dial back dies I doubt I'll ever use it again.
I can't get my mileage over 17 even with the NOS carb. I had one tank that gave 21 mpg then back to 16-17 max. It want's to bobble & almost stalls when coming to a stop & run-on is bad. Something isn't right but I don't have time to figure it out. Even though it's NOS & never had gas in it I'm betting a 36 year old gasket or diaphragm gave out someplace. I'm definitely NOT a carb guru. I can tune a good carb pretty well but when the carb acts up I start whizzing in the wind & hoping I stumble on the solution.
I have a standard one too and haven't looked at it in years,lol..
Yeah I know what you mean, most of the time it's just something simple, but being that it sat so long stuff could have dried up and now you develop an internal leak, I've had that happen before and had to rebuild a brand new carb.
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I would just convert to EFI like it did. 91 mustang 2.3 DIS EFI. Youve replied to my thread about it before. I have the same car as you. Its easy to do and you no longer have to worry about setting the timing (no distributor!!) or messing with the adjustments and working out the flat spots in acceleration, etc. I would gladly help all I could. It is by far the best thing I have ever done to my pinto.
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I have a dial back timing light so checking timing is easy. Set the dial where you want the timing & line the damper mark up to zero. Checking total advance is as easy as revving the engine & turning the dial until the damper reads zero then just read the number off the dial to know total advance.
My wife got me a fancy digital timing light for Xmas last year so it's a little different than just turning the knob. Got buttons to push. Of course I speced this light out for her so I have no one to blame but myself.
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I would just convert to EFI like it did. 91 mustang 2.3 DIS EFI. Youve replied to my thread about it before. I have the same car as you. Its easy to do and you no longer have to worry about setting the timing (no distributor!!) or messing with the adjustments and working out the flat spots in acceleration, etc. I would gladly help all I could. It is by far the best thing I have ever done to my pinto.
Yeah I know, that is really the way to go and I may change over down the road, gotta get the money tree to grow a bit first though,lol. So, you used a 91 Mustang setup huh, what do you have for an exhaust system?, I know mine is junk manifold is cracked small tubing and crap muffler, I was thinking of a ranger header and 2" back to a Flowmaster, how was the mileage after to converted to EFI?..
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Yeah I know, that is really the way to go and I may change over down the road, gotta get the money tree to grow a bit first though,lol. So, you used a 91 Mustang setup huh, what do you have for an exhaust system?, I know mine is junk manifold is cracked small tubing and crap muffler, I was thinking of a ranger header and 2" back to a Flowmaster, how was the mileage after to converted to EFI?..
I probably have less than $300-ish in my swap. Engine was either $150 or $200 dont remember for sure. Plus $35 for the harness at pick n pull, same for the computer. Needed a few odds n ends but most of everything i needed came with the engine. I even wired in the mustang internally regulated alternator (took two wires to hook up). The engine only took about 3 wires plus some grounds.
As for the exhaust i used the stock mustang manifold. It clears everything just fine. Ranger should work too but I kept everything stock and retained the egr and everything.
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I probably have less than $300-ish in my swap. Engine was either $150 or $200 dont remember for sure. Plus $35 for the harness at pick n pull, same for the computer. Needed a few odds n ends but most of everything i needed came with the engine. I even wired in the mustang internally regulated alternator (took two wires to hook up). The engine only took about 3 wires plus some grounds.
As for the exhaust i used the stock mustang manifold. It clears everything just fine. Ranger should work too but I kept everything stock and retained the egr and everything.
Thanks, guess I'll keep an eye open for a wreck/junker, sounds like it would be an easy swap.
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I found my engine on craigslist. I decided what I wanted and the first time I looked I found what I wanted.
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Wish I was that lucky, lol..
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I had to search beyond my city to find it... but it was only an hour away. I went and picked it up the day i found it. Was easy.
Look for a 91-93 mustang 2.3. That's the best engine to use. Its got the alternator on the correct side and everything. The ranger engine has the alternator on the opposite side but it is still usable.
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I had to search beyond my city to find it... but it was only an hour away. I went and picked it up the day i found it. Was easy.
Look for a 91-93 mustang 2.3. That's the best engine to use. Its got the alternator on the correct side and everything. The ranger engine has the alternator on the opposite side but it is still usable.
Thanks much, I'll keep an eye out for one. How bout the Ranger same years?..
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89 to 94 on the ranger I believe. Not totally sure tho. I know they had it from 91-93 also but believe they had it a year earlier and a year later also.
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Thanks, I'll watch for one of those too.