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Offline krazi

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oil pressure and other fun stuff
« on: April 28, 2014, 09:53:48 PM »
my bobcat wagon has a 2.8. it's one of the 2100 or so that was built in 78 and sold as a 77. I'm having trouble keeping oil pressure after the engine warms up. another problem, I took a carburetor from a 78 bobcat wagon that has a slightly different airhorn on it and put it on the engine. starts and idles better, but runs like crud when I try to drive it. the 78 carb looks to have an extra choke butterfly on it. the one I had in the car came from a 79 and leaked everywhere after about 7 years. it almost seems to be cross-firing. maybe cap and rotor are shot.
someone told me I could put a hi-volume oil pump in it and solve the oil pressure problem.
yeah, I'm Krazi!

Offline amc49

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2014, 06:50:41 PM »
I doubt it. Pump pickup tube clogged or motor has dead bearings.

I sold plenty of oil pumps to people who just insisted that the pump will fix it. Nope, commonly 90% later came back and lied saying it worked and later you found they quickly dumped the car or the others were honest and revealed the new pump did nothing.

Oil pumps are one of the most reliable parts on most cars, commonly the problem is usually something else or if truly the pump you can just about guess 100% there will be other damage. Pumps don't wear unless the engine has worn with them. Of course that leaves out the occasional oddball fail like pump bypass valve stuck or simple breakage, rarely it DOES happen.

High volume and high pressure are two different things.

What carb, 2100 or 2150? You cannot mix some parts on them. If 5200 you for sure can't mix certain tops.

Offline D.R.Ball

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2014, 07:12:59 PM »
So how would you know , right now what is the oil pressure any way ? The OEM gauges are generally speaking crap and go from there.  Just how old is the pressure sending unit? Wiring okay ?  Try to put a test gauge on the oil pressure sender and  get a true reading. Or pull the engine and remove the bearings to check for worn out bearings. That's about it.

Offline amc49

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2014, 08:37:54 PM »
'I'm having trouble keeping oil pressure after the engine warms up.'

That suggests the light works, to show the difference between cold and warm. Those idiot sensors generally stick on or off, they usually don't change range function. The stock switch; light comes on around 5-7 psi.

Here's the deal. Oil Pumps don't wear by themselves like they exist in another dimension, any wear they have will pretty much always be duplicated in the inner engine. Occasionally not true but usually is. V-6 could have plastic or rubber oil seals, sometime they get old enough to heatcrack in pieces to clog the pickup, if caught quick enough one might possibly save an engine here or there. Keep driving it though like most do and give it up.

Offline amc49

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2014, 08:41:28 PM »
If doing something ridiculous like running lightweight oil like commonly used now that could be a problem. Like 5W-20, a worn engine won't like it. I don't run that stuff even in the engines now that call for it.

Offline krazi

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2014, 03:56:46 PM »
I took the bulb out of the warning light a long time ago. I have installed an after market pressure gauge. I use mobil 10w-40 conventional oil. oil pressure is around 40 on a cold start. after the engine warms up, pressure falls to near zero. I have removed the factory oil pressure sending unit and replaced it with mechanical tubing for the pressure gauge. hard, copper tubing.
should I be using a heavier oil? the engine has about 45000 miles on a rebuilt bottom end, and around 5000 on the top half. no bearing noise that I can hear. just the common valvetrain chatter.
yeah, I'm Krazi!

Offline amc49

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2014, 06:14:32 PM »
That oil is fine but only 40 psi at cold rev is a bit low. You could try swapping a couple quarts of straight 30 with no harm during the summer.

FYI, you will ALWAYS lose pressure as the oil warms up, what's your perceived low at hot idle?

On a stocker the old adage of 10 psi for every 1000 rpm is still good, I've driven V-8 that idled at only 7 psi (gauge+light, the light commonly flickered a bit at idle) but came up to 20 at anything over idle and 35 at cruise, engine lasted forever. How the engine is loaded has much to do with how long it lasts. No load at idle.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2014, 09:33:10 PM »
So, there's 45,000mi on it, what was the oil pressure when it was first rebuilt???..
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Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2014, 10:23:27 AM »
5-10psi at hot idle and 20+ at hot cruise is adequate for a lot of engines, even ones made two decades later. The less HP/L the engine makes, the less stressed the parts are the less critical oil pressure is. And lets face it; Pinto engines never made a lot of HP/L. ;)

I took the bulb out of the warning light a long time ago. I have installed an after market pressure gauge. I use mobil 10w-40 conventional oil. oil pressure is around 40 on a cold start. after the engine warms up, pressure falls to near zero. I have removed the factory oil pressure sending unit and replaced it with mechanical tubing for the pressure gauge. hard, copper tubing.
should I be using a heavier oil? the engine has about 45000 miles on a rebuilt bottom end, and around 5000 on the top half. no bearing noise that I can hear. just the common valvetrain chatter.

What sort/brand of gauge is it? Do you know what bearing clearances were upon rebuild? What does the (hot) oil pressure do above idle?
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Offline amc49

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2014, 03:53:05 AM »
I personally prefer more like 30 cruise on a four but other than that X2. 20+ works on a V-8 at say 2500 rpm. When I said 40 I meant stone cold engine. It would drop to say 20 hot. I look for like 50-60 stone cold. More if I've shimmed pump bypass which I often do.

Offline krazi

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2014, 06:59:57 PM »
ok. we might have the oil pressure problem sorted out. I'm using a equus 7200 series gauge, 270 degree sweep on the needle. now how do I sort out the running rough problem? idle mixture screws? distributor out of time? is the car depressed and needs therapy?
yeah, I'm Krazi!

Offline krazi

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2014, 09:05:40 PM »
would it help the oil pressure if I put in 15w-50 full synthetic?
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Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2014, 10:34:26 PM »
I never checked my V6 pressure but my stock 76 2.3L with 64K miles puts out over 60 PSI cold & 45+ hot at idle. It usually runs 50+ PSI at 65 mph hot. That's using an Autometer Pro Lite gauge.
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Offline jeremysdad

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2014, 10:48:15 PM »
would it help the oil pressure if I put in 15w-50 full synthetic?

NO SYNTHETIC OIL!!!

Never put synthetic base oil in an old motor. Seal leaks, mainly. Now, if it's a fresh rebuild, rock on. Otherwise, don't do it. It's worse for classics than ethanol.

Offline jeremysdad

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2014, 10:53:41 PM »
I never checked my V6 pressure but my stock 76 2.3L with 64K miles puts out over 60 PSI cold & 45+ hot at idle. It usually runs 50+ PSI at 65 mph hot. That's using an Autometer Pro Lite gauge.

I get 50 co;d idle, 17-20 hot idle and 60+ at 65, but have a 72 2.0 and Sunpro gauges. (Don't laugh. You've all been broke with a family to feed before.) :) lol

Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2014, 11:09:20 PM »
I get 50 co;d idle, 17-20 hot idle and 60+ at 65, but have a 72 2.0 and Sunpro gauges. (Don't laugh. You've all been broke with a family to feed before.) :) lol

I hear you on being broke. I look for bargains on new gauges on ebay. I have 2 sets of Autometer & a set of Stewart Warner Maximums new in boxes that were $10-25 per gauge (oil press, water temp, volts & boost) & speedo's & tachs for $25-50 each.
 
It took me 2 years to dig all those up but I'm patient & plan way in advance. The trick is to catch the cheap "buy it now" bargains before the other guy does.
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Offline amc49

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2014, 12:54:11 PM »
To OP, synthetic oil does absolutely nothing for oil pressure. The additives in it soften old seals to let them leak.

The 15W-50 is only 15 weight oil, the additives bring the faked weight up to 50. If trying to bump up pressure add a single can of single viscosity or more if you need it. That can get you a bit further down the road but if parts are worn you're only delaying the inevitable. And if planning on rebuilding possibly scrapping your core.

It's summer, you got months before worrying about starting issues, I ran straight 40 in the summer and 30 in winter in Texas for many years in these and they ran fine.


Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2014, 03:33:26 PM »
Viscosity ratings are not exactly straight forward and often cause confusion.

A 10W-30 oil has a cold viscosity equivalent to a cold 10-weight reference oil.

When a 10W-30 oil is hot, it has the viscosity of a hot 30-weight reference oil.

Straight 50, 20w-50, and 0w-50 oils all have the same "hot" viscosity.

Multi-viscosity oils still get thinner as temperature increases; they just thin-out less than a single-viscosity oil. Viscosity index improvers (VIIs) are the compounds added to a base stock/straight-vis oil to give it that ability. VIIs are also generally the least durable part of the oil, so viscosity breakdown tends to happen faster with oils that have a wider gap between the cold and hot viscosity, especially where shearing is an issue like in motorcycle gearboxes. Not really something to worry about in general applications, but it does happen.

Whether the oil is synthetic or not has no bearing on the viscosity rating, but you're probably only going to find really broad spreads offered in synthetic like 0w-50.
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Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2014, 08:44:26 PM »
If your issue is a loose engine & you live in a warm climate you can try straight 50 weight oil in it. I had a 302 with ridiculous mileage on it that had 3 pounds oil pressure hot idle on a good gauge on straight 50 weight. It was only used to haul my buggy in the summer so I ran straight STP in it as a last ditch solution to save me from swapping engines. It ran that way for 6 more years & 13,000 miles & ran until I scrapped it.  It had 12 psi hot at idle on straight STP. Just don't try to crank the engine below 40 degrees because it's gonna be tough on the starter.
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Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2014, 09:31:33 PM »
Valvoline may still offer a 60w racing oil. Haven't looked for it since '04, which the last time I had a loose 302 to deal with.  ;)
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Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2014, 11:12:24 PM »
I used to run a mixture of 5 quarts Kendall 60 weight & 6 quarts 70 weight in my 13.5to1 340 in my Duster back in the day. I could break down straight 40 Valvoline in 15 minutes in that engine. That 65-ish weight was the only thing that kept my slightly detuned 9.90 index engine alive on the street in the mid 80's.
 
Trying to drive an all out race engine on the street back then was insane & expensive but all I wanted was to have the fastest car in the area so I worked 3 jobs to keep the engine running at all costs. Thinning out the oil burned a set of pushrods & lash adjusters my 1st night out with her. After that I learned that thicker oil kept it alive longer.
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Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2014, 07:51:57 AM »
I could break down straight 40 Valvoline in 15 minutes in that engine.
Back in the day Valvoline was crap, I used to go through bearings like crazy with 50wt in my 427 until someone clued me in on that, put a drop of 50wt Valvoline next to a drop of 50wt Kendall on a piece of glass and tip it up and watch the Valvoline run like 10wt away from the Kendall, I switched to the Kendall Green and went a whole season and the bearings looked like they just came out of the box. BTW, the good Kendall Green is now Brad Penn..
Art
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Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2014, 10:38:07 AM »
What amazes me is that the Procharged Aluminator 5.0 going in my 07 Stang will push 750 RWHP compared to my 660 crank HP N/A 340  in my Duster. It will start & idle like stock, get 15 mpg, not overheat in traffic & not require me to carry a tool box with spare valve springs, lash caps, adjusters, rocker arms & pushrods to every cruise night & do it all while running 0w-20 oil.....
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Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2014, 10:43:02 AM »
I went through that before, cam profiles has a lot to do with that.
Art
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Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2014, 10:59:27 AM »
I went through that before, cam profiles has a lot to do with that.

In my case it was the .657/334 solid roller & 660 pound Vasco Jet springs that I, for lack of sanity, ran on the street rather than 1/4 mile at a time.
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Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2014, 11:01:46 AM »

In my case it was the .657/334 solid roller & 660 pound Vasco Jet springs that I, for lack of sanity, ran on the street rather than 1/4 mile at a time.
Yeah, that'll do it, LOL.. ;D
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Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2014, 01:07:07 PM »

In my case it was the .657/334 solid roller & 660 pound Vasco Jet springs that I, for lack of sanity, ran on the street rather than 1/4 mile at a time.

Needed some pneumatic valve springs.  Then you could spin it as high as the fuse on the bottom would let it. ;)
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Offline krazi

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2014, 09:19:30 PM »
found out why it wouldn't run, I switched the vacuum lines for the egr and the distributor. it runs so much better now. and strangely, the oil pressure came back up. time to go racing!
yeah, I'm Krazi!

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2014, 09:37:23 PM »
Glad to hear it all came together..
Art
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Offline jeremysdad

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Re: oil pressure and other fun stuff
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2014, 03:11:40 PM »
It's always awesome when it's something cheap and easy! :)