PINTO CAR CLUB of AMERICA
Welcome to FordPinto.com, The home of the PCCA => General Help- Ask the Experts... => Topic started by: blupinto on December 23, 2016, 11:48:00 PM
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Hi All!
At my home I have Dwayne's "New" Pinto. It has been to the paint shop and looks good enough to eat! When she went there, her taillights worked. When she came back her taillights worked. The morning I was to take her to work (with Dwayne's permission) her lights worked. I know because I go to work when it's still dark, and I did sort of a pre-op, focusing on side markers, taillights, headlights, and turn signal lights. About a mile from my house someone drove beside me on the small "expressway" and informed me that I had no taillights. I pulled over, and sure enough he was right. I turned around and went home, parking her and jumping into my Rodeo. Since then I have looked up the fuse chart (nothing there for taillights, brake lights, etc.), replaced the brake light switch, checked to see if there were cracks, breaks, wear on wire insulation, changed bulbs... still I have no taillights. Is there something I'm missing here? I've consulted the 1974 Ford Shop Manual, but wasn't able to find anything. I appreciate any insight or help with this. She needs to be driven, but til this is fixed, it's illegal to drive her. Thank you.
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Hi Becky!
Well you've let the cat... er, pony... out of the bag! I really had not told anyone about my "new" Pinto yet, but that's okay; I'm glad you did. If there's an answer to be found, I believe it will be found here. Although member participation is down, there is still a wealth of knowledge on this site.
For anyone else who is reading this and is interested, the Pinto we're referring is one that's been a long time coming. I began my search more than 25 years ago for an orange 1974 Pinto Runabout with black interior, just like the first car I ever owned when I was sixteen years old. I never dreamed such a once-common car could be so elusive. In fact, when I stumbled onto this site nearly ten years ago, it was for the express purpose of finding the car I wanted. I found it quickly; Joe Escobar has it and he isn't about to let go of it! lol Other examples were few and far between and I really wanted a decent driver quality car, not a trailer queen or a basket case. Because Pintos are far more plentiful on the west coast than in the east, Becky took up the search as well and alerted me to several cars she'd unearthed over the past five or six years, but none really quite suited until Spring of this year. The orange 1974 Pinto Runabout she found did, indeed, have black interior and a newly rebuilt engine. It's an automatic instead of a manual, but otherwise was the closest thing I've seen to what I was looking for in decades. She made a trip on my behalf to see and drive the car and, through the modern magic of cell phone technology, we stayed in contact throughout the meeting with the seller, with her sending me photos of problem spots, as well as the good things. We dickered the price down a bit and pulled the trigger on the deal that day! Although the engine was good, the car had been off the road for quite a while so there were other considerations and Becky has been my liason with mechanics, a body shop, upholstery shop, etc. to get this car into top notch condition. We're not finished yet and we've hit a stumbling block or two along the way (ie: no taillights) but it's coming together nicely. By the time I get to see it in person, I will have owned it for about eighteen months, but that's okay. After 25 years, what's another year-and-a-half? Maybe I can persuade Becky to post a few pictures of it... it truly is a beauty!
Dwayne :)
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Short of being unplugged at the lights this is a treasure hunt for sure. The tail light wires are easy to trace from the dash rearward. They run under the door sill scuff plate that ties the carpet down under the drivers door. I'm sure you've checked the fuse's by now. One of those trouble lights that is pointed on one end and a lead with a clip on the other will allow you to check voltage along the way rearward. Hope this helps Becky.
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I hope I wasn't out of line spilling the Pinto beans! I thought you shared that already. I guess I've really been gone too long from here! lol
Dick, I do have one of those, but I haven't used it in so long, I've forgotten how to use it! lol
Does this set of wires have a fuseable link on it? (I think I'm saying that right) They aren't unplugged at the lights. They worked when I had the car warming up that morning.
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I don't think there's a fuseable link in the tail light wires. To use the test light just clip the clip on to bare metal and use the point to probe into the wires while the light switch is pulled out. Try the tester on the car battery first to make sure its working and the little lite comes on. Easy as pie R square.
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had this same problem with one of mine after it got painted. they would work, then not work, then work again, etc. Had a lot of little issues like this after body and paint. It was all grounding issues where fresh paint and grounds went. After much goofing around I finally removed the tail lights. Sanded the area the light plugs go into on the tail light. Used a wire brush on the metal tabs around the bulb mount that hold the light into the tail light. Then because the ground comes from mounting the tail light to body from the bolts that hold it into place I cleaned up the threaded shaft with wire brush. Same for the nuts and some sand paper to the inside around the hole the shafts for the tail light go into so the nuts when tightened would have a clean metal to metal contact for ground. You could just try removing the rear plastic inner shield, reach in and try wiggling the light socket where it goes into the tail light and see if that brings them back, re-tighten nuts and basically wiggle stuff. I did a lot of that hoping it would fix and quit going out. Wasn't until I did the complete tear down and clean all contacts the problem went away for good.
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I have the exact same problem as well. I have a 1974 Trunk Model and my tail lights don't work at all.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Thank you, Brian, for that information. I will start cleaning those things you mentioned in the next few days. I appreciate the insight.
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had this same problem with one of mine after it got painted. they would work, then not work, then work again, etc. Had a lot of little issues like this after body and paint. It was all grounding issues where fresh paint and grounds went. After much goofing around I finally removed the tail lights. Sanded the area the light plugs go into on the tail light. Used a wire brush on the metal tabs around the bulb mount that hold the light into the tail light. Then because the ground comes from mounting the tail light to body from the bolts that hold it into place I cleaned up the threaded shaft with wire brush. Same for the nuts and some sand paper to the inside around the hole the shafts for the tail light go into so the nuts when tightened would have a clean metal to metal contact for ground. You could just try removing the rear plastic inner shield, reach in and try wiggling the light socket where it goes into the tail light and see if that brings them back, re-tighten nuts and basically wiggle stuff. I did a lot of that hoping it would fix and quit going out. Wasn't until I did the complete tear down and clean all contacts the problem went away for good.
That makes perfect sense to me because that's where the most extensive bodywork was done on the car! New metal was fabricated back there because when they started sanding, unseen rust caused it to simply fall apart! Thanks Brian!
Dwayne :)
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I hope I wasn't out of line spilling the Pinto beans! I thought you shared that already. I guess I've really been gone too long from here! lol
Not a problem; I'm rather like you in that I somehow or another felt I was going to jinx everything by talking about it too soon. After 25 years of searching, the last thing I wanted to do was jinx it! I was just going to wait until it's in my possession and then wow them with pictures, so if you'd like to post any pictures of it here, you have my blessing. Merry Christmas!
Dwayne :)
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Sounds like Brian has it covered.
I doubt it's wires..... likely grounding at the lights / sockets.
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That makes perfect sense to me because that's where the most extensive bodywork was done on the car! New metal was fabricated back there because when they started sanding, unseen rust caused it to simply fall apart! Thanks Brian!
Dwayne :)
You're welcome Dwayne, happy to share my experience after body and paint issues cause me similar problems, hope that is all it is.
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You're welcome Dwayne, happy to share my experience after body and paint issues cause me similar problems, hope that is all it is.
Me too! Thanks Brian! By the way, it's good to see you on the site again!
Dwayne :)
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Becky! Whats the latest on the tail lights? Hope you get it worked out. Do the brake lights and turn signals work ok? Let us know.
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It's been raining these last few days- the one day it wasn't rainy or cold I went north to replace a friend's lower radiator hoses on her '99 Cavalier. I haven't even looked at the lights since I posted.
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Yup, "Ford's Better Idea".. save bucks on "Ground Wires" by using the vehicle's 'Uni-body" as the Ground. ...& then shoot the consumer/owner in the foot by "insulating" all the electronic components on the body, making the fastening screws critical grounds for any/all lights/electronics to work... weeeeee. (except that rust/corrosion & thick paint or paint in certain areas, aren't your 'friend')
BTW, please "don't stand in a pool of water & lick the Radio Antenna while the vehicle is running".. hahaha.. (I'm just joking w/ this,, but at any rate, you'll only look silly licking the radio antenna at any time).
Michael
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Is it possible for the light switch to be bad?
Congrats on the new pinto.
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Okay. I sanded the rear ground area and the contact til it was nice and shiny. Turn signals work... except in the rear- no matter which side the indicator is on- the taillights blink like they're on hazard mode. The front blinkers work properly. When the hazard light is pulled, all lights flash in hazard mode. The taillights still don't come on when the headlight switch is pulled, but the headlights themselves work lol Crazy!
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all side marker lights working properly?
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Yes. Headlights work, marker lights work... just funky taillights.
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bummer, I'm out of ideas cept to check wiring...
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Still sound like a ground issue to me, not necessarily in the back though, check the ground from the battery to the body, and all grounds for that matter..
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Still sound like a ground issue to me, not necessarily in the back though, check the ground from the battery to the body, and all grounds for that matter..
Art,
Any and all insight you can offer will be much appreciated; this is my car she's working on!
Dwayne :)
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If all the other lights, fans, etc. work..., and the car starts..., then it isn't the battery ground.
Do the brake lights work? If so then that would indicate the there is ground to the common tail light housing and that would not be the problem.
Also, the front parking lights come on at the same time as the tail lights. It has NOT been mentioned that they don't work - so I'll assume they do. They power through the same switch. The unknown is do they use the same contact point within the switch? If it is a common contact point then the switch is not the problem. It has also been stated that the switch has been replaced so it is likely not the problem. IF the tail light wire was shorting out it would render the front paring lights non-operational since they are wired together. Thus it can be assumed the wire is not shorting.
It has the appearance that the tail light wire is either broken or disconnected somewhere. That should be checked for but requires removing panels, seats etc. to trace down. But first RE-CHECK that there are brake lights and front parking lights. Lastly, it could be that the turn signal (it is basically an interrupt in the individual tail lights) is the source of the problem. Those circuits can get as confounding as figuring which single bulb is causing a whole string of cheap Christmas lights not to illuminate. I'll try and look at the diagram later today and see if there is anything that I can add (no promises).
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Lastly, it could be that the turn signal (it is basically an interrupt in the individual tail lights) is the source of the problem. Those circuits can get as confounding as figuring which single bulb is causing a whole string of cheap Christmas lights not to illuminate.
Becky,
Am I remembering correctly that there was an issue with the turn signals the day you first looked at the car, but that you got them working? Wittsend might be on to something here!
Dwayne :)
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OK, I took a look at the wire diagram in the Clymer manual. From what I can interpret the turn signal circuit and the emergency flashers are NOT involved in the tail/parking lights. The tail/parking (and side marker) lights show a BROWN wire as being the positive side of the circuit. The tail lights ground through the housing to the body and the parking lights ground through a black wire. It is all the same circuit on the brown wire.
It would be helpful to know if the front parking lights are working. That would be proof that switch is working and power is getting through. The problem is described as if both tail lights are not working. It would seem odd that both lights would lose ground simultaneously . If the rear side markers are also not working then that would lead me to believe that the Brown wire is broken or disconnected somewhere.
A quick remedy (assuming a broken wire) would be to just run a wire from the switch (Brown wire) to the rear and splice it into Brown wire in the vicinity of the tail lights. BUT, to do it neatly you pretty much have to follow the path of the original wire. And in doing so you might find the break or disconnect anyway.
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I guess I wasn't clear on my original post. Yes, the front turn signal lights work (I'm assuming that's what are meant as parking lights.) They come on when the headlights come on, and they blink properly when I use the turn signal indicator wand. The front signals work. The rear ones are funky. I pulled paneling out at the rear to see if there was a broken wire, but haven't found one. The car starts right up and runs great!
Dwayne, the turn signals weren't working well because of that bad turn signal/hazard light switch. I replaced that. Now I'm wondering if that's the issue, or the body shop might have something to do with it. Again, this was sudden onset! The lights all worked properly when I got it back from Maaco.
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Also, the taillights (red areas) have one bulb. The hazard lights/turn signals work (weirdly but they come on)... could this be a bad headlight switch?
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Also, the taillights (red areas) have one bulb. The hazard lights/turn signals work (weirdly but they come on)... could this be a bad headlight switch?
Sounds like a possibility to me!
Dwayne ???
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Yes, parking lights (what the manual calls them) are the front lights (not headlights) that also function as turn signals.
As I stated above the brake, turn signal/flasher lights are wired separate from the tail lights. So, they can work and you still not get tail lights.
I don't think the switch is bad. The manual shows the front parking/rear tail lights on a common wire (brown). So, if they are coming on up front, then the should be coming on at the rear too.
The rear side marker lights and the license plate light should also be on that circuit too. Do they light up? If so it does indicate power is getting to the rear of the car off the headlight switch. If not ... .
There is a lot of wire between the switch in the dashboard and the lights at the rear. So, just looking at the rear access panel area is not everywhere the wire is run. Typically the wire will come off the switch, runs down the left kick panel and either under the carpet, or under the metal sill plate. From there it either runs under the rear seat, or in the rear seat area side panel to the back of the car.
You can test to see if grounds are the problem by taking a wire from the metal tail light housing (the part the bulb goes into) and jumping it to an unpainted part of the car like the hatch latch where the paint gets scraped off. Just make sure the metal is clean of oxidation. And, no you won't get shocked by holding the ends of the wire. It is low voltage DC.
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Yes, the side markers and rear license plate light work. The taillights are getting power- when I put the indicator to right or left, the taillights blink as if I pulled the hazard switch (the parking lights blink normally). I cannot pull the car apart, as today I got a nasty gram from my idiotic HOA complaining and threatening to fine me for replacing my alternator belt outside as opposed to in my garage (no room in garage).
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What is the number on the bulb for the tail lights?
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To answer the last two posts in one:
The bulb is the very common 1157. It has been used almost universally with the older twist lock lights for decades. It is a TWO filament bulb. Meaning it is two light bulbs in one. The dimmer filament is the tail light. The brighter filament is the COMBINATION Brake and Turn signal. This is why the turn signals or brake lights working have no relevance on the tail lights working. They are powered independently and light different filaments. However, since they share a common socket it does prove that the grounds are good.
This leads me to believe 99% that the brown wire to the tail lights is either disconnected or broken. And it is somewhere "near" the back end of the car because the side marker and license plate light are functioning and share a common power source. I'm not sure what side of the car the wiring runs down, but I'd assume the drivers side. Thus I would follow that brown wire (may be wrapped with others in black tape) from the tail light going toward the point of origin (most likely sideways before it goes forward) and see if you find the problem. The wire may be intact, and connected. It might be that the connection somewhere down the line is corroded . So, if you find ANY connector separate it and check.
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"However, since they share a common socket it does prove that the grounds are good."
Actually no that does not prove the ground is good. If you have a bad ground what will happen as long as you are only trying to use either the tail light or brake light is it will back feed through the other filament and find a ground in the other circuit. That is why when you test brake lights and tail lights you want the tail lights on and then step on the brake. If you have a bad ground then you will not get a light at all.
Looking at the wiring diagram that I have it shows that the mark tail lamp and license plate all share the same feed from the light switch. Which tell me you have a bad ground at those tail/brake light sockets. The other clue is the fact that you say the tail lights blink which would indicate to me a bad ground. What I would do for testing is bring a temporary ground wire from the frame to the light socket, does not need to be anything fancy, vice grip the wire to the frame and scrap a clean spot on the side of the socket and hold the wire to it and see what happens. I could be wrong but I sure do not see where you have a power feed issue with the other lights working.
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"However, since they share a common socket it does prove that the grounds are good."
Actually no that does not prove the ground is good. ...
In this case she said the grounding points were sanded to clean metal, and that she had brake lights and turn signals. Thus my assumption of good grounds. Also, if the current was passing through other filaments, in essence wired in series now, wouldn't that cause the functional bulbs in that circuit to dim? As an example; there is no ground (on one side for the example), the brake lights come on but one side is passing through the tail light filament and finding a secondary ground. Shouldn't that brake light be dimmer? There has been no mention of that.
Becky, I understand how persnickety HOA's can be. But, running a wire momentarily from the light socket housing to a bare metal spot on the car (like the hatch latch) takes all of 5 seconds -or less to do. All you need is about 3 feet of wire and even an unraveled metal coat hanger scraped of it's coating will do. Just turn the lights on, hold the wire to the metal grounding point and the metal on the bulb socket. If the tail lights light, it is a ground problem. I'f not, it is likely a wire problem. You only need to hold the wire long enough to see the tail lights light up ..., or not. Just a few seconds This will forever end the debate about the problem being a ground - or not. When you say you "cleaned to bare metal" was that at the socket to the housing ..., or the housing to the body ..., or both? It needs to be both.
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Well I have seen lots of crazy things in my many years of turning wrenches. I have seen bulbs put in backwards and yes I know they are supposed to go only one way but where there is a will, murphy makes a way. That was the reason I asked what number bulb was in the tail lamps as I have also seen double contact bulbs that were only a single filament install in brake/tail lamp sockets.
Ford on the Pinto used a very strange way to get a body ground in 1974 and maybe other years as well. If you look at the OEM ground cable about half way down the cable is a clip that bolts the cable to the body. That was the original body ground. It actually worked very well when everything was clean. Most cables have been changed over the years. If changed to an ordinary ground cable then you needed to add a ground cable from the engine to the body or from the battery negative terminal to body. It is possible there may not be a good body ground anymore. Since it has been indicated that all electrical items except the tail lamps function the chances are very slim that a poor body ground is the issue but one could check.
So there are a couple of other quick and easy test that can be made with a test light that should help you determine if it is a power supply issue or a ground issue. With you test light connected to a good ground take the tip and touch the brass base of the bulb. It should not light up. If it does light and it could be anything from a dim light to a bright light then that would indicate you have a bad ground at that socket. Test both sides before doing anything else. If you see no light at all and if everything is good you should not see any light then go to step two. Remove the bulbs from the sockets and with the tail lights on and turn signal activated for which ever side you are testing probe the terminals at the base of the socket where the bulb makes contact you should see one terminal with a steady light and the other terminal that should blink which would be your turn signal. That test will determine if you have positive voltage feed for both circuits. If you do not find the expected results than address those issues. In looking at my harness tonight it appears there are three places you need clean metal for a good ground at the tail/brake lamps. First the inside of the socket needs to be clean to make good contact with the bulb, then the fingers where the socket snaps into the light housing and finally clean where the lamp housing bolts to the body.
Keep everyone posted as to what you find.
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VERY well written to say the least. And yes, we need to hear this out till it is finally corrected.
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So did you ever get your problem resolved and if so what was the issue?
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Hi everyone! I'm sorry for the delay in responding! Ongoing issues not Pinto-related happening over here.
My friend David and I had the car over at his house. The brake light situation was fixed with a (slightly) different brake light switch than the one I originally installed and a new pigtail. However, we STILL have no taillights when the headlights go on, and when I put the turn signal to R or L, the front signals work properly, but the rear ones both come on, a la hazard lights. lol. There is power going to the sockets, but now we thing we need a new headlight switch. David also swears there's supposed to be a third wire going into that socket, but the wiring there doesn't look modified in any way. I'll look in my 1974 Ford Shop Manual and see, though.
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Hi.. as a test and temporary repair you might try connecting a ground wire to the factory ground wire where it connects to the tail light and see if the light works then.. if it does you can then either track down the ground fault OR just attach a ground wire to the body and splice it into the tail light ground which is probably a good idea anyway.
Heres a link to a wiring diagram pg 16 for pinto.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.gt40s.com/images/torino/72ford.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwix69Cot4zTAhVsyoMKHWqfBtYQFgghMAI&usg=AFQjCNFbJ-K_deDtVQH2SpYXeeOrSMN6WA&sig2=yAdu-LjCiwEqAKaj_gpBkw
The ground wire is black and attaches to a screw on the rh real quarter panel