Author Topic: No spark????? (Read 8423 times)

2point3turbo · « **on:** January 06, 2007, 01:52:57 PM »

I did some swapping: LA3 and then back to PK1. Since swap, I had spark for a bit when first re pinned and went to LA3. Then it ran real rough but next day didnt run anymore. I then switched back to original... no work. Thats when I decided to just get a new harness and ECU and go from there. Now it still wont get spark. I have checked all wires a million times over. There are only two pins that need power, how hard is that? I have two other ign coils and they all had the same result, no spark. What in the world can this be?

2point3turbo · « **Reply #1 on:** January 06, 2007, 05:51:21 PM »

I got a new ignition coil and still no spark. What can be wrong with the wiring?

/

oldkayaker · « **Reply #2 on:** January 06, 2007, 08:10:09 PM »

I am not an expert here but below are a few things to try. When you say it is not getting spark, I am assuming that the fuel side is working.

With ignition switch in run, check for +12V at the coil (maybe a fuse blew). Also check for voltage at the TFI connector (R/LG on a 87 LA2).
Check for spark at the coil. This would eliminate bad high voltage wires, rotor, and cap.
Since you checked/swapped the coil, wiring, and ECU, the remaining components are: TFI, the Hall sensor in the distributor, and the high voltage circuit checked above. If you have a spare TFI distributor, try that.
Since the wires have been handled some, maybe the resistor wire has failed. This is a DG/Y wire from LA3 pin 4 to a splice point that then goes to the TFI, coil, and tach. The symptom here would be that it gets spark while cranking but dies after the key is released.
Check for continuity in each of the remain three wires from the ECU to the TFI. The last TFI wire can be checked for voltage while cranking (R/LB on a 87 LA2).
I seem to vaguely remember reading that if the SPOUT plug (the small white rectangular in line plug near the distributor) is pulled, the TFI will run independent of the ECU. Not sure about this, but it is an easy check.

When you locate the errant item, please post your findings so I know what to look for when it happens to me.

2point3turbo · « **Reply #3 on:** January 06, 2007, 10:32:59 PM »

I just found a wire severed that probably shouldn't be. It is the small "plug" wire that hooks up to the starter solenoid. I cant seem to find the other end so I think I will have to tear the steering column apart to get back there. I also want to ask if the ignition mod went bad on the dist, would that cause there to be no current to the coil?

turbopinto72 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 06, 2007, 10:52:09 PM »

oldkayaker gets a bump for his last post, good work.

pintoguy76 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 06, 2007, 11:42:50 PM »

Quote from: 2point3turbo on January 06, 2007, 10:32:59 PM

I just found a wire severed that probably shouldn't be. It is the small "plug" wire that hooks up to the starter solenoid. I cant seem to find the other end so I think I will have to tear the steering column apart to get back there. I also want to ask if the ignition mod went bad on the dist, would that cause there to be no current to the coil?

The ignition module can do all kinds of wierd sh*t. When the ignition module on my 76 went out, it would fire the coil only when i let up on the key after cranking, while the engine continued to turn for that split second, on residual energy. While cranking, it would not give any juice to the coil at all.

2point3turbo · « **Reply #6 on:** January 07, 2007, 12:40:27 AM »

I replaced with a used one and still have no spark. I am thinking its that wire off the starter solenoid that just plugs in. It was severed but I dont know where it goes. I think it got cut when I switched harnesses out. Anyone know about what it connects to or if that may be the problem?

pintoguy76 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 07, 2007, 12:52:05 AM »

Does it have two wires going into the one connector? One goes to the coil (thats yer problem) and the other goes to the ignition switch i think. What color is the wire?

2point3turbo · « **Reply #8 on:** January 07, 2007, 09:57:43 AM »

It is the black wire. The only thing going to the coil is the XR4TI wiring harness, this wire goes inside. When I grounded it to see what would happen, the car wouldnt even start or even click.

oldkayaker · « **Reply #9 on:** January 07, 2007, 11:42:20 AM »

I do not have a XR4Ti wiring diagram. On a 87 turbocoupe and the 76 Pinto, the two little wires to the starter solenoid relay's small terminal are both R/LB. One goes to the key switch (start position) via either the clutch switch or the auto neutral switch. The other one goes to the TFI module (or to the ignition module on the original 76 harness). There probably are other small wires on the starter solenoid relay's large terminal supplying battery voltage to the electrical system.

If the TFI module goes bad, you will not have spark. You said you replaced "it" with a spare. If just the TFI module was replaced, there is still the possibility that the Hall effect sensor in the distributor went bad. I had this sensor die on my 86 Mustang and it definitely kills the spark. To replace this sensor I believe you have to pull the distributor, from what I have read.

You said you had "no current to the coil". I assume you meant "no voltage to the coil" (DC current meters are expensive). With the key switch in run, you should have almost full positive battery voltage on both of the coil's small terminals. The TFI module works via switching the ground to the coil. If no voltage here, check up stream to the key switch, fuses, and fuse links.

Grounding unknown wires to see what happens scares me and could damage things. Please use a volt ohm meter to trace wires (these are cheap). If the wire was hooked up inside the car when you grounded it and you tried to start the car, it most likely blew a fuse or melted a fusible link.

2point3turbo · « **Reply #10 on:** January 07, 2007, 07:32:48 PM »

I have checked all wires, replaced distributor, replaced wiring harness and ecu... again, now I just want to bypass the key on the pinto and put it all on a push button. It has to be the wire coming off the starter solenoid thats severed. I cant seem to find it so now I just want to go around it. Any suggestions as to how?

2point3turbo · « **Reply #11 on:** January 07, 2007, 09:55:00 PM »

I checked the current to the distributor when key is on and no power there. I wonder if my wiring is just not complete as far as the harness power goes. Anyone feel like giving me dumb dumb easy directions. I have read everything and then some and have followed the pinouts to a tee and just dont know whats going on here.

oldkayaker · « **Reply #12 on:** January 07, 2007, 10:02:23 PM »

You should eventually take the time to trace out the circuits with the wiring diagram and fix the problem(s). To retain your sanity, below are some temporary new wirings to get spark and the engine cranking. These assume the wires from the LA3 ECU to the TFI and the starter solenoid small terminal wire are not installed yet. This is a little out of my comfort zone, so no guarantees of success or unburnt wires/components.

The TFI top pin DB shielded wire goes to the ECU pin 56.
The TFI second pin from the top Y/LG shielded wire goes to ECU pin 36. This wire could be omitted just to get the engine running.
The TFI third pin from the top R/LB wire goes to the starter solenoid small terminal. This will be energized only when you use the momentarily jumper described below.
The TFI fourth pin from the top R/LG wire goes to the coil's small positive terminal and to a fused +12V source. This is the key switch run power. Pull this fuse to stop the engine.
The TFI fifth pin from the top DG/Y wire goes to the coil's small negative terminal. This wire also goes to the ECU pin 4 via a resistor wire.
The TFI bottom pin BK/O shielded wire goes to the ECU pin 16.
This is to run the starter so make sure it is in neutral or park. At the starter solenoid, momentarily jumper the large positive terminal (the one hooked the battery) to the small terminal (there will be a small spark).

In order to keep my sanity about a year ago, I made up an exel spreadsheet for most of the 87 turbocoupe wiring. It is too big to attach here, but I could email it to you if you want.
Above all be patient with the electrons and you will figure it out.

2point3turbo · « **Reply #13 on:** January 07, 2007, 11:38:28 PM »

Yes please email to me. Thanks

77turbopinto · « **Reply #14 on:** January 08, 2007, 08:58:14 AM »

Check your fuse links for contenuity.

Bill

2point3turbo · « **Reply #15 on:** January 08, 2007, 12:00:17 PM »

I just tested other switches and plugs and there is no power anywhere. This is the wiring I followed:

Pin Location    Application/Name    Notes

1    Keep alive Power KAPWR      Attach to battery
4    Ignition Diag monitor IDM
7    Engine coolant temp ECT
10    A/C clutch ACC      Not present
16    Ignition ground IGN GND
17    Self test output STO
20    Case Ground CSE GND      metal wiring
21    Idle Speed control ISC
22    Fuel pump control FP
23    Knock sensor KS
25    Vane Air Temp VAT      Sensor in VAF
26    Voltage reference Vref
29    Oxygen sensor EGO
30    Nuetral drive switch NDS    Ground this wire
32    Boost control BOOST
34    Data output link DOL
35    EGR shutoff S/O
36    Spark output SPOUT      near distributor
37    Vehicle power V PWR      12 from key
40    Battery ground BATT GND    ground anywhere
43    Vane air flow VAF
45    Barometric pressure BP
46    Signal return SIG RET
47    Throttle position TP or TPS
48    Self test input STI
49    EGO ground EGO GND
54    WOT A/C cutoff WAC      not present here
58    Injector bank 1 INJ 1
59    Injector bank 2 INJ 2
60    Battery ground BATT GND    ground anywhere

What is wrong here?

oldkayaker · « **Reply #16 on:** January 08, 2007, 02:06:16 PM »

I sent you the exel spreadsheets. Since pin #1 is attached to the battery, you should at least have power there. As 77turbopinto says, check the fuse link (assumes battery is good).

The LA3 came in the 88 turbocoupe. For some reason Ford moved the pin assignments around some between models. See http://www.gt350mustang.com/eecspecsturbo.htm for some of the changes (not 100% accurate). Looking at your list there are a few items that need attention:

pin #27 should be connected to the VAM (VAF)
The BOOST wire should go to pin #31 on the LA3 instead of pin#32
The EGR shut off should go to pin #33 on the LA3 instead of pin #35
Pin #56 should go to the TFI module for the PIP signal
pin #57 is another +12V supply to the ECU (this is usually via the integrated relay module so it is only energized when the engine is running)

Keep plugging.

2point3turbo · « **Reply #17 on:** January 08, 2007, 02:32:08 PM »

I am not running the LA3 for now. I have the PF3 I just got from a yard with the new harness. I can switch it all over to the LA3 if that would be easier for you to help me out. The plug swapping is the easy part. Can you give me pinouts for the PF3 to LA3? I want my car back!

oldkayaker · « **Reply #18 on:** January 08, 2007, 06:39:25 PM »

That explains some of my confusion. The spreadsheet I sent you has the pinout and wire colors for the turbocoupe LA2 which also works with the LA3. I do not have any information on the PF3 pin out. Since you are using a XR4Ti harness, I assume the PF3 is also a XR4Ti item. If this is case, this site may help: http://www.merkurencyclopedia.com. At the site click on EEC-IV at top and then click on 87/88 TC EEC-IV into XR on the left side. This page gives instructions on how to install a LA3 into a XR4Ti including the pinout changes. That site may also have the XR4Ti harness wire colors some where.

Keep going and soon you will have the "more power".

2point3turbo · « **Reply #19 on:** January 09, 2007, 11:36:21 PM »

Thanks Jerry, you are the man!!! I got it running just moments ago and felt you should be the first to know.... other then my wife who heard my battle cry. If anyone needs help, ask Oldkayaker, he know best! That was a frustrating and time consuming venture but nothings to much for a Pinto. Thanks sooooooo much! I cant wait to get that T5 in now. WOOOOO HOOOO!!!! I found a pretty good recipe for the harness with all that time I had. That table you made up should be posted here. If you dont mind I could put it on my site and link it here. Thanks again and again.

oldkayaker · « **Reply #20 on:** January 10, 2007, 03:37:54 AM »

Congratulation s on making "more power". I found a typo in the spreadsheet and will I send you a corrected one before you put it on your web site and again it was from a 87 turbo coupe.

2point3turbo · « **Reply #21 on:** January 10, 2007, 10:48:34 AM »

Let me know what the typo is so that I can fix it if need be. I thought the DB wire was the brown wire on the TFI so no w I need to know what the brown wire is for and I will need to change pins on the blue wire. Almost there.... it did want to start last night, got spark now! What should I do with the clutch relay, ground it out?

oldkayaker · « **Reply #22 on:** January 10, 2007, 03:56:09 PM »

I fixed the typo before sending it again to you this morning. The typo was on line 46, the term "ECA self test connector, multiple" was replaced with "ECA power relay contact".

Your harness is apparently colored differently than the 87TC. My dark blue maybe your brown. On my 87TC harness, dark blue shielded wire is the PIP signal from the TFI top pin and goes to the ECU pin #56. The 87TC does not have a brown wire on the TFI.

If by clutch your are referring to the transmission, there is a R/LB wire on the 87TC from the key start position +12V going thru the clutch safety switch to the starter solenoid relay small terminal and on to the TFI. The clutch switch is closed when the clutch is depressed so that you don't start the car with the clutch engaged. You can bypass (jumper across it) the clutch switch if you mentally provide this action. Grounding this on the 87TC harness would create a short (not good).

The 87TC has a solid state A/C clutch relay in the integrated controller module (box of 5 relays). If this is the clutch you are referring to, leave it open circuited with the wires tape up. If you plan to use A/C, I would recommend that you wait until the engine wiring is correct first.

Sounds like you are almost there, but be patient and do not let the magic smoke out of the compents.

2point3turbo · « **Reply #23 on:** January 10, 2007, 04:39:40 PM »

One problem after the next. I went to change the oil and it came out thin and smelt like gas. Is my head gasket shot? Maybe this is why I cant get it to start now.

oldkayaker · « **Reply #24 on:** January 10, 2007, 05:25:48 PM »

A head gasket should not do cause this. Just speculating that you have got the injectors working but not the ignition and you have been turning it over repeatedly. This will pump gas into the cylinders without igniting it. The gas in the cylinders will run down past the rings into the oil pan diluting your oil.

2point3turbo · « **Reply #25 on:** January 10, 2007, 08:03:14 PM »

Thats what I was thinking after the post. I went ahead and took the head off for rebuild anyway. I have a ported head I have been wanting to put on so it gives me a reason to do so. When I tried to start it before tearing off the head it still would not start, could that be because there was to much gas in the cylinders? I may have also put the dist in one tooth wrong so I will do the whole shebang when I put the new head back on. I am just hoping that it was so flooded that that was the reason for no start. What do you think?

oldkayaker · « **Reply #26 on:** January 11, 2007, 07:25:55 AM »

It is possible but after the number of days you have tried it, I would think the gas would have cleared out. If you have a leaky injector(s), that may flood a cylinder. After turning off the engine, check that the fuel pressure does not decay significantly. There is a schraider valve on the injector fuel log pipe for this check. Also check that the distributor and cam are on the correct belt tooth.

2point3turbo · « **Reply #27 on:** January 12, 2007, 12:24:18 AM »

I finally got it. I had to go back to my XR harness I bought and with Jerry's email on the TFI wiring info I got it running. Also I have to say that I am a MORON! The timing was WAY off for two days of very hard work on the Pinturbo. Thanks for every piece of info.... I needed it all!

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Author Topic: No spark????? (Read 8423 times)