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Offline rramjet

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Knock, Knock.
« on: November 15, 2013, 08:49:48 PM »
Well I went through the head on my 73 2.0 and got it running nice. Now guess what; it has a rod knock. Comes on around 50 Mph.

I have read about cases of doing the engine top end bringing the compression and performance up to the point that the bottom end goes, just didn't expect to experience it.

Now contemplating my next step. I have the car at our AZ. Winter location so don't have all my tools from home but probably enough to get the motor out with a rental hoist and tear it down. Another option would be a 5.0 but not sure how much work that would be. It has an Auto Trans, I'm guessing C3. Anyone know what engines these will mate up to?

I like the idea of the turbo coupe motor but guessing these are rare. Would the later Ranger motor fit? Seem to be a few of them around. Wouldn't mind some more power. Seems to me there were also some later Pintos with a V6 probably the same one in the Mustang II's. Are they any good?

I welcome any suggestions.

Offline jeremysdad

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Re: Knock, Knock.
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2013, 11:23:12 PM »
What oil are you running? I would hope at least 15w-40... :) With 10w-40, my 2.0 'knocked' like a new Kia. They will always sound like an old Singer...that's just what they do.

Have you verified 0 oil pressure at the main bearings with a known gauge? Sounds more like mal-adjusted valves...no offense. :)

Offline Srt

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Re: Knock, Knock.
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2013, 03:17:41 AM »
noise under acceleration.. .at steady cruise...decel eration?
 
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Offline rramjet

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Re: Knock, Knock.
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2013, 09:29:50 AM »
noise under acceleration.. .at steady cruise...decel eration?

I hear it when I start the car for the first time each day for a short time. Then when I drive it after it's warmed up at about 45-50. Seems to diminish somewhat under load. Get it if accelerating from 45 or backing off. I did have a new cam, cam bearings, followers and oil tube put in when I did the head. Also new timing belt and tensioner. I spun the oil pump to verify oil out of all of the tube holes. Started out with Brad Penn 10W30 oil then switched to Valvoline racing 20W50 and a can of STP.

I adjusted the valves to .008 intake and .010 exhaust. They seem noisy but don't know if the valve stem tips were surfaced or not. Oil pressure is about 60 psi and drops down to about 30 idling in gear once warmed up. Picks back up to 60 on acceleration. It's a direct reading gauge. This is a change from before the head work. Then the oil pressure was never below 50. I'm suspecting a change in cam bearing clearance but not sure how since it was a new cam and bearings. Could also be that the PO was running gear lube. I never changed the oil because it was clean and oil pressure was good. Ran about 2500 miles before doing the head work.

I did find a thread on installing a 2.3 Turbo in a 73 and it seems like more than I want to tackle at this point.




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Re: Knock, Knock.
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2013, 11:17:53 AM »
Started out with Brad Penn 10W30 oil then switched to Valvoline racing 20W50 and a can of STP.

I'm going to suggest something to try before you do anything else... from my experience that is way.... to thick of oil for a Pinto motor. since you are down south I would recommend 10w40 with 1/2 quart of Lucas. When you hear a slight knock at startup and then goes away after running a few seconds that would be the lifters oiling up. If it take a little warming it indicates the oil is to thick and when it thins out (warmer) the knock goes away at lower speeds. I experience this with mine when I used thicker oil. The only time I hear a knocking at speed (45+) I would consider 2 things... low octane gas, I experienced this once on a long trip and started using 91/92 octane and the "under heavy load" knock when away. Now I only use the higher octane gas even in my stock Pintos. 2nd thing I would double check is timing.

start w/the simple stuff 1st (oil) and seriously IMO 20w50 is just 2 thick even for the warmer temps down south
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: Knock, Knock.
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2013, 11:53:29 AM »
NEVER,NEVER use racing oil in a street car. It is not made with all the stuff that oil co put in the oil for street use. It is made for a race engine that changes oil as often as every run on the track. On any car unless its driven for hours every time,or worn slap-dab out, NEVER use thick oil. I use Mobil I 10w-30 in my Pinto and 5w-30 in my Suburban. With the oil you have + STP, I'm sure the oil in your pan is like gear lube. Even 5w oil is to thick to reach the bearings when you fire the car up. That's why I use Mobil I as the motor will turn over as fast when cold as when hot. Gets to bearings faster. Go to http://bobistheoilguy.com to read all there is about oil!!!! Castrol just came out with 0W-40 Edge oil.
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Offline rramjet

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Re: Knock, Knock.
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2013, 12:12:16 PM »
Thanks for the thoughts.

The knock started when I was running the 10W30. I've used Valvoline 20W50 in other cars I have,, (hot rods) without problems. It contains zinc which has been removed from other oils and according to many is essential for flat tappet cam life.

This sound is not the preignition ping sound I'm familiar with but I will bring the timing back a little since it is quite advanced to where it seems to like to run best.

I have to admit when I first noticed the sound on engine start up I thought it was valve train noise even though it was a deeper sound than you typically get from the valve train but seemed to be at the same frequency. I'm still not ruling it out since that's where all the work was but I inspected everything and readjusted the valves and just can't see anything wrong.

Keep the ideas coming. Would love not to have to tear into the bottom end of this thing.


Offline dick1172762

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Re: Knock, Knock.
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2013, 01:34:56 PM »
Could be piston slap if the motor is a fresh re-build. Try taking off one spark plug wire at a time while the engine is running. That should tell you if its a rod knock. After that do like the Brits do, (run it till it breaks,  then you know what is wrong). The 2.0 Fords don't like a lot of spark advance because of the stock compression being pretty high. And spark knock is not always heard by the driver.
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: Knock, Knock.
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2013, 01:49:07 PM »
One other thing. Have you changed the filter? I once used so much moly lube on the new cam in my 2.0 that the filter got pluged up with the moly and the engine started to knock. Use good a filter too. Read this to understand more.http://minimopar.net/oilfilters/opinions.html
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Offline rramjet

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Re: Knock, Knock.
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2013, 01:59:33 PM »
Thanks.

I have a NAPA Gold filter (Wix) on it. I used Comp cams lube which is thick but pours. Only had a small packet of it but enough for the critical areas.

I do run 91 octane in it although it probably doesn't really need it since compression is only supposed to be 8.2 on these things. It is interesting that my owners manual calls for 91 octane Regular but think this was before reformulating of the gas for unleaded.

Going to play with the timing a little bit and see if it helps.

Offline dick1172762

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Re: Knock, Knock.
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2013, 03:41:20 PM »
That filter is one of the very best. I learned my lesson with the cam lube. Like nitro, I though if enough is ok, more is better, and too much is just right.
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Offline jeremysdad

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Re: Knock, Knock.
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2013, 10:49:17 AM »
I run 93 octane in mine, because (as you mentioned) the owner's manual calls for 91, and regardless of leaded or not, octane rating should be octane rating, unless the mathematical formula changed with the removal of lead. With such a small tank, it usually works out to about $2 difference per tank. Cheaper than replacing pistons, and a lot easier. Ymmv.

Also, I believe the owner's manual specs 20-50 at anything above freezing. I run 20-50 if I use the more expensive Zinc additives (they're usually about as thick as 10-30, at best), but wouldn't run STP with it.

Your oil pressure sounds fine, to me. 30 psi at hot idle is good for any motor, and your pre-headwork levels never falling below 50 psi could have just meant that a passage in the head was restricted (spun cam bearing or restricted oil bar, perhaps).

Make sure your timing is set correctly, that your cam timing is correct...also ...I have an exhaust leak at the manifold collector that sounds like a knock, mainly at idle and cruise.

Hope you get it sorted out, and that it's something easy, cheap, and simple. :)

Offline dick1172762

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Re: Knock, Knock.
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2013, 04:57:53 PM »
Nothing wrong with STP! It has a high amount of zinc in it,(blue can/4cylinder) and is in used every form of racing. That's what we used 50 years ago along with powered moly to coat the bearings/cam, etc. I've used STP in all my cars(racers too) and have never-never had a bearing problem. STP is short for Scientifically Treated Petroleum. Good stuff.
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Offline rramjet

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Re: Knock, Knock.
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2013, 07:25:19 PM »
I don't typically use STP just becasue I never felt a need for it but in this case I hoped it might help with the knock. No luck.

I remember my Dad showing me how well STP worked back in the 60's. He started the engine in the family 57 Ford and said listen and as he poured it in you could hear the engine speed up a little.  That was enough to make him a believer. Besides, if Andy Granetelli said it was good that was good enough for him.

I readjusted the valves and have it purring now so the knock is even easier to hear. I read somewhere that many times the reason for rod knocks after a head job is antifreeze getting in the oil and forming an acid that attacks the bearing surface. I did have a little water go into the cylinders when I lifted the head off but not much and I poured some Marvel Mystery Oil into each cycliner to keep things loose while the head was off and of course new oil and filter before restart so don't see how that could be the cause but who knows.

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Re: Knock, Knock.
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2013, 08:45:00 PM »
Antifreeze is an engine killer, anytime I build a motor the first fire up is on pure water only or if I do anything where I need to drain the coolant like pulling a head I drain the system, after I run it on water and I know there's no leaks then I'll drain it and add the coolant.
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Offline amc49

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Re: Knock, Knock.
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2013, 11:45:09 PM »
Problem is, it won't leak plain water but put AFZ in it and then it leaks. Antifreeze is slicker than plain water and will leak where water doesn't. Seen it a hundred times.

They took the zinc out of STP a long time ago. Against the law to use it since sold for use in on highway vehicles. You can still get zinc in some oils like specialty race since they will state on side of container not for highway use. And why you pay so much for that disclaimer now.

I used either straight 30 (winter) or 40 weight (summer) for many years in my Mustang II with 2.3, it never once knocked on startup. I hear all the jazz about using lightweight oils on cold start to prevent 'dry start' but a misconception, only two or three true dry starts and the engine tears up pretty fast. My view is that the thinner oil also drains out of bearings faster since capillary action that keeps it in place drops with thinner oil weight. And after pulling down many engines that did not run for years prior to teardown, you find oil around the bearings when torn down. I even run heavier weight in my late model Ford zetecs, 30 weight forever until Walmart quit carrying it, now 10-40, I don't put the suggested 5-20 in ANYTHING. 3 cars running like that now and can't tear them up. I have actually fixed startup higher mileage knock by switching others cars and trucks to heavier weight oil before, chew that one over for a bit. The thicker oil does not backdrain out as much before cooldown, they don't mention that at all in the oil ads do they???

I was told running too heavy a weight oil in my variable cam timing would mess it up, 180K now and still no trouble at all with it. LOL.

I'm in Texas, you can't get away with that up north, it gets too cold. I can start a car here even at 5 degrees, it rarely gets colder than that.

You can look at BITOG two ways, they know everything or some of them are quite full of crap. Doesn't matter if they ARE engineers, once you see things yourself real world you can find fault with some of their ideas too. I used to know some engineers at Vought Aerospace, some of those guys were flat crazy and their ideas were as well. We built engines for them, they could not keep them together.

Offline jeremysdad

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Re: Knock, Knock.
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2013, 11:03:20 AM »
amc, it (STP) still has zinc, according to the label. :)

Offline dick1172762

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Re: Knock, Knock.
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2013, 11:47:45 AM »
Blue can for 4 cylinders has the most. 8) Or that what they(STP)says.
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Offline slowride

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Re: Knock, Knock.
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2013, 01:12:00 PM »
Problem is, it won't leak plain water but put AFZ in it and then it leaks. Antifreeze is slicker than plain water and will leak where water doesn't. Seen it a hundred times.

They took the zinc out of STP a long time ago. Against the law to use it since sold for use in on highway vehicles. You can still get zinc in some oils like specialty race since they will state on side of container not for highway use. And why you pay so much for that disclaimer now.

I used either straight 30 (winter) or 40 weight (summer) for many years in my Mustang II with 2.3, it never once knocked on startup. I hear all the jazz about using lightweight oils on cold start to prevent 'dry start' but a misconception, only two or three true dry starts and the engine tears up pretty fast. My view is that the thinner oil also drains out of bearings faster since capillary action that keeps it in place drops with thinner oil weight. And after pulling down many engines that did not run for years prior to teardown, you find oil around the bearings when torn down. I even run heavier weight in my late model Ford zetecs, 30 weight forever until Walmart quit carrying it, now 10-40, I don't put the suggested 5-20 in ANYTHING. 3 cars running like that now and can't tear them up. I have actually fixed startup higher mileage knock by switching others cars and trucks to heavier weight oil before, chew that one over for a bit. The thicker oil does not backdrain out as much before cooldown, they don't mention that at all in the oil ads do they???

I was told running too heavy a weight oil in my variable cam timing would mess it up, 180K now and still no trouble at all with it. LOL.

I'm in Texas, you can't get away with that up north, it gets too cold. I can start a car here even at 5 degrees, it rarely gets colder than that.

You can look at BITOG two ways, they know everything or some of them are quite full of crap. Doesn't matter if they ARE engineers, once you see things yourself real world you can find fault with some of their ideas too. I used to know some engineers at Vought Aerospace, some of those guys were flat crazy and their ideas were as well. We built engines for them, they could not keep them together.
Problem is, it won't leak plain water but put AFZ in it and then it leaks. Antifreeze is slicker than plain water and will leak where water doesn't. Seen it a hundred times.

They took the zinc out of STP a long time ago. Against the law to use it since sold for use in on highway vehicles. You can still get zinc in some oils like specialty race since they will state on side of container not for highway use. And why you pay so much for that disclaimer now.

I used either straight 30 (winter) or 40 weight (summer) for many years in my Mustang II with 2.3, it never once knocked on startup. I hear all the jazz about using lightweight oils on cold start to prevent 'dry start' but a misconception, only two or three true dry starts and the engine tears up pretty fast. My view is that the thinner oil also drains out of bearings faster since capillary action that keeps it in place drops with thinner oil weight. And after pulling down many engines that did not run for years prior to teardown, you find oil around the bearings when torn down. I even run heavier weight in my late model Ford zetecs, 30 weight forever until Walmart quit carrying it, now 10-40, I don't put the suggested 5-20 in ANYTHING. 3 cars running like that now and can't tear them up. I have actually fixed startup higher mileage knock by switching others cars and trucks to heavier weight oil before, chew that one over for a bit. The thicker oil does not backdrain out as much before cooldown, they don't mention that at all in the oil ads do they???

I was told running too heavy a weight oil in my variable cam timing would mess it up, 180K now and still no trouble at all with it. LOL.

I'm in Texas, you can't get away with that up north, it gets too cold. I can start a car here even at 5 degrees, it rarely gets colder than that.

You can look at BITOG two ways, they know everything or some of them are quite full of crap. Doesn't matter if they ARE engineers, once you see things yourself real world you can find fault with some of their ideas too. I used to know some engineers at Vought Aerospace, some of those guys were flat crazy and their ideas were as well. We built engines for them, they could not keep them together.
While what your saying about viscosity and heavier weight oils is partially correct, thinner oils are are recommended for newer higher tolerance engines for a simple reason. Visualize clearance as a straw....... the larger the ID of the straw, the more worn and greater clearances. Now, let's try to pour a viscous fluid through the straw... without any more pressure than atmospheric. The smaller the straw, the thinner the fluid to be able to flow into and through the straw. The bigger the straw, the thicker fluid that can flow through it. In the extreme, think of a heavy oil as jello, then try to pour it through a straw. There are also other factors involved such as shear. A thinner oil will penetrate the gap rather than trying to be pushed through and shearing.... creating heat and contributing to viscosity breakdown. Consider also that it takes more HP to pump a thicker oil.
The takeaway is that one should use the appropriate oil for the engine's condition and not just assume thicker is better. I run 40w in higher mile engines to help compensate for wear. Doesn't make much sense on a tight engine, though.