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Offline waldo786

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intake/carb combination help
« on: November 21, 2014, 05:05:40 PM »
Hello all, I apologize if this has been gone over before, but I have done some research but I still have some questions about a carb and intake setup for my car.  I've just had the head rebuilt with stainless swirl polish stock valves, a ranger roller cam, and had the head shaved down to be somewhere between 9 and 9.5:1 compression.  I have a ranger "header" that will also go on the car and I'm thinking of putting in a 2" exhaust.  I'm having trouble deciding what intake and carb setup to use.  I have an offenhauser dual port intake with a holley 390 carb.  I'm wondering if that will just be too much carb for this engine?  Another option (I believe  an adapter will fit) to use an adapter for a two barrel carb on that manifold although I don't know how that would work being dual port.  The 2 bbl. I would use would be a weber 32.36 DGEV (I would like an electric choke).  It seems I can use the stock intake with that carb also, but I don't know how well that would be for performance.  Another option I've heard of is people using the efi lower intake manifold with an adapter that is available and sold in several places for a 2 bbl carb, although I'm not 100% sure it would fit the weber carb I want.  Yet another option would be an esslinger 2.3 cast iron intake (or possibly one of their aluminum ones - are they for racing?).  It has D ports like the fuel injected intake, so I don't know how well that would work, and again I don't know if the weber carb would fit.  Any one have any experiences or suggestions with these?

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: intake/carb combination help
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2014, 06:44:08 PM »
I'll be putting an lower EFI intake with an Autolite 2100 on mine if I can ever find the size I want...
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: intake/carb combination help
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2014, 07:25:32 PM »
A D-port intake works fine on an oval-port head; it's the reverse that you want to avoid.
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: intake/carb combination help
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2014, 10:56:42 PM »
The stock Pinto intake manifold will out flow the stock carb so what will you gain on a non race car Pinto? If it aint broke, why fix it?
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Offline slowride

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Re: intake/carb combination help
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2014, 01:56:46 AM »
The progressive Weber on the stock intake is always going to flow unevenly port to port. That's the reason I started working on a 38/38 on the stock intake to even the flow to all cylinders. Crappy pic, but you can see what I came up with in the classifieds section.

Offline waldo786

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Re: intake/carb combination help
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2014, 10:06:57 AM »
Excellent, wonderful information here.  A few more questions if I may.  First, and before I forget, I just want a really nice cruiser car that has some juice at lower RPMs.  Dick, looking at your info there, you are a racer.  My biggest question would be that - would the stock manifold flow adequate for the set up I have and plan on using for giving it just a bump in power with a bigger carb?  I'm sure you have much more knowledge than I on these engines having raced them.  Slowride, that's a very good point I didn't even think of.  I did look at the 38/38, but I'm afraid it would be too large also.  Anyone ever use one of those Esslinger intakes or heard anything about them good or bad?  74PintoWagon, what years of the lower efi manifold work to bolt on?  Is that what you mean by find the right size?   Sorry for all the questions, but ideally I'd like to do this once, and get this thing out driving.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: intake/carb combination help
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2014, 10:40:08 AM »
  74PintoWagon, what years of the lower efi manifold work to bolt on?  Is that what you mean by find the right size?   
This is the one to use, mine is a late 80's, I was refering to carb size not intake, since I'm looking at bottom end I want the smallest size carb.
Art
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: intake/carb combination help
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2014, 10:58:46 AM »
Esslinger intake is a joke. Same as stock in that you have two short runners and two long runners plus its not heated with the engine fluid like stock. Cheapest set up is stock. Next cheapest is a stock intake with a 38/38 weber. With that set up you will need to bore out the carb adapter as it has one big hole and one small hole. The 38/38 weber requires two large holes in the adapter. EFI is the most $$$ and the most work as it must be ported under the carb and also requires an adapter ($90+) to make it work. The EFI will not work with a 32/36 or 38/38 with out a home made adapter. Which one is best for the bucks?  I think a stock intake with an ACE adapter( moves the carb over to better feed the ports) and a Motorcraft / Autolite carb. Those carbs come in various sizes with some as small as the stock 32/36. Junk yard is full of them on 70's Ford pick-ups. Great little carbs. Its NEVER going to run like a v-8 unless you put a turbo on it. Ranger roller cam and stock intake with a 38/38 carb will run just fine. Hope this helps.
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Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: intake/carb combination help
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2014, 11:18:07 AM »
The smallest Autolite is a .98 venturi that came on the little 221 V8's, those are hard to find.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Offline waldo786

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Re: intake/carb combination help
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2014, 11:31:47 AM »
Thanks again for the replies, that does help.  While I was looking around at the weber carbs, I did find this type of fuel injection.  It is quite a bit more money, but not sure if this is the kind you are mentioning in your post: http://www.racetep.com/weber/weberfi.html

Offline dick1172762

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Re: intake/carb combination help
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2014, 12:36:41 PM »
$$$ Never seen it before$$$ Its only money.$$$
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Offline amc49

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Re: intake/carb combination help
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2014, 02:33:42 PM »
There is nothing wrong with the Offy/390 setup. How you get yourself into these 'research' quandaries is beyond me. The more you research the more you confuse yourself like here. The Offy was intended for stock engines and the 390 will not be too much carb as all you can open is the front two barrels, if too much carb the backs will simply not open.


Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: intake/carb combination help
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2014, 04:07:59 PM »
While I was looking around at the weber carbs, I did find this type of fuel injection.  It is quite a bit more money, but not sure if this is the kind you are mentioning in your post: http://www.racetep.com/weber/weberfi.html

That Weber EFI is outrageously overpriced for what you get. I see a narrowband oxygen sensor which is useless for power tuning. Add $200 for a basic wideband setup and now you're looking at $2200. I think it would be possible to get into something more widely used and well-known/supported like an Accel DFI or FAST XFI system for less. MegaSquirt systems can be super affordable, but are a lot more DIY and may have a steeper learning curve.

Quit sweating the Weber/Holley intakes and get a four-pack of side draft carbs off a liter bike.  8)
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: intake/carb combination help
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2014, 06:38:36 PM »
OR..., get some 1" thick, 3" X 3" aluminum plate.  Bore a 1-1/2" hole in the center.  Whack the manifolds off shortly after the "Y" on each side. Then weld the plates to the "Y" pieces. With a die grinder blend the weld parts. Get two SU carburetors and let the fun begin!  ;)

True, strange story.  When I was 18 all my friends had Datsun 510's with SU carburetors from the parts competition catalog.  I was too poor for that.  I took a stock Datsun manifold (much like the Pinto) and ground out the two holes into one larger oval.  I then too two pieces of 3", 90 degree angle sheet metal. I overlapped the two pieces like forming a box, but dropped one end down basically forming a "V." Then I made a plate for the end with a hole in it. I had a friend weld it together and I bolted it to the manifold. I then mounted a single SU carburetor to the "thing" I had made.  Most were surprised that it didn't work half bad.

Excuse the drawing. I'm much better at making stuff than illustrating it.

Offline waldo786

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Re: intake/carb combination help
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2014, 07:18:28 PM »
I guess this all happens because it's always been my goal to have a fuel injected classic car that is reliable enough I could, and may end up, using as a daily driver.  I remember the terrible cold starts I had starting my grandfather's car when I drove it in high school even living in VA.  Fuel injection is so much better.  Unfortunately for us 4 cylinder folks there doesn't seem to be much in the way of that, so I figured I'd have to use a carb, and didn't want to over do it and still have it run bad after all the other work.  Just my thing, I see all the popular 8 cylinder cars getting fuel injection and it seems really nice to have that option.  Yes, it's expensive, but if I make this a daily driver, I'd like the drivability of fuel injection.  Just my thing, others here may like carbs better, but that's up to each his own.

Offline amc49

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Re: intake/carb combination help
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2014, 08:02:53 PM »
Where have you been? The 2.3 has had EFI since '86............ ..............

Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: intake/carb combination help
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2014, 10:59:51 PM »
'83 if you count the turbo model.  ;)

I guess this all happens because it's always been my goal to have a fuel injected classic car that is reliable enough I could, and may end up, using as a daily driver.  I remember the terrible cold starts I had starting my grandfather's car when I drove it in high school even living in VA.  Fuel injection is so much better.  Unfortunately for us 4 cylinder folks there doesn't seem to be much in the way of that, so I figured I'd have to use a carb, and didn't want to over do it and still have it run bad after all the other work.  Just my thing, I see all the popular 8 cylinder cars getting fuel injection and it seems really nice to have that option.  Yes, it's expensive, but if I make this a daily driver, I'd like the drivability of fuel injection.  Just my thing, others here may like carbs better, but that's up to each his own.

Which one do you really want? EFI doesn't have to break the bank and carburetion doesn't have to have bad manners.

I can tell you this though: you're not likely to get an OEM-level tune on your own without dyno time.
 
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Offline rowdyrunabout

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Re: intake/carb combination help
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2014, 07:31:30 PM »
getting ready to update my post and saw this. Had to read thru it, because I am researching the same/ similar thing. I have the offy dp on my pinto. Put a brand new holley 390cfm on it. Choke wasn't working right, and I couldn't get it to idle below 1000. But it seemed to handle the gas flow---I said seemed. I'll get to that in a minute. opening the throttle was smooth fast and the 4s kicked in. Sounded great- exciting to hear some power. Now back to seemed.
Car was at 140 degrees. Thought maybe the choke was not fully open, but thought I'd check the timimng. I'm hooking up the light and I see something I've never seen. Number 3 and 4 header pipes are glowing like pumpkins. I mean like Orange. I think that means my pinto cannot handle that much carb?

Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: intake/carb combination help
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2014, 09:20:22 PM »
You could put a 600 on that engine an it wouldn't make the header glow. That is either a mixture or timing problem.
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: intake/carb combination help
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2014, 09:37:54 AM »
I don't think its mixture because too lean and those cylinders just wouldn't fire very much (less heat). Sounds like the timing is retarded big time but all cylinders would be glowing not just two.  First thing I would do is to look inside the carb for trash and plug'd  up carb jets. Its got to be something really obvious  to make those cylinders glow at idle. Check the plug wires for two crossed. LOL
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Offline waldo786

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Re: intake/carb combination help
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2014, 10:18:51 AM »
I think I've decided to use a lower fuel injected intake with the adapter and a 2bbl carb, most likely the holley 350 although I may use an autlolite 2100 on it as Art suggested.   I saw on this site also that a 2150 would also fit, which may be another way to go.  What specific years and cars do these fuel injected intakes need to come from?  I've seen some that have the 4 holes and some that have other configurations .  I am also wondering if it is necessary to port this intake as Dick mentioned, or for a street car, can I just bolt on the adapter and go?  AMC, what I meant by my comment on fuel injection is that there are not options like the stand alone FAST systems that have the self tuning computers, etc, that are made for our size engines.  I am fully aware that these 2.3's have had EFI for many years, but I prefer not to have to piece together parts from a stock system and figure out how and what will work or need to be hooked up.  If there was someone who could teach me, I'd  really like to learn more about it so I can understand it. 

Offline amc49

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Re: intake/carb combination help
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2014, 05:12:13 PM »
Believe me bucko when I say the stock OEM FI setup would be LIGHTYEARS ahead of one of those setups you marked there. They are NOT self tuning, you have to do that, the stock setup however pretty much has that already done.  Your thinking is absolutely backwards.

Header can glow a wee bit if running really good and you just came back from standing on it, but for 3-4 inches and solid, no, an issue there. Check the header gasket, leaks there can ingest air to afterburn in pipe to do that, especially if motor a bit rich. Make sure exhaust valve has clearance, if leaking can do that. I've seen part fouled plugs do it when the burn slows way down from improper ignition. So, rich can seem lean sometimes. Pull plugs to see if black. Usually a lean condition does it.



Offline dick1172762

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Re: intake/carb combination help
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2014, 09:41:24 AM »
I bet 3 and 4 plug wires are crossed.
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