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Author Topic: Carburetor orientation on 4 barrel manifold  (Read 2151 times)

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Offline Spartan6

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Carburetor orientation on 4 barrel manifold
« on: December 09, 2017, 05:33:04 PM »
Alright, we finally found the coveted offy 6114dp intake, and have procured a 4bbl carburetor that should be small enough to not overload our race motor, but also give us more wallop than the 2bbl on the ranger efi manifold.

My question is, the 2 barrel had the float bowl facing forward, and as this is a road race car,  that made sense, the 4 barrel looks like it needs to go on with the bowls pointed 90 degrees different,  does anyone know if we can put it on front to back, or will that screw with the dual plane setup? I just worry about one metering block or the other starving, depending on which direction we're turning.

Thanks.

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Offline dick1172762

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Re: Carburetor orientation on 4 barrel manifold
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2017, 08:42:00 AM »
A good ported EFI intake with a Holly 350 or a Motorcraft carb will preform better than any 6114 intake. The EFI intake with a Holly 350 or 500 carb is what most of the mini stock racers use. The Autolite / Motorcraft carb is the easy way to go with equal gains of the Holly.
 
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Re: Carburetor orientation on 4 barrel manifold
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2017, 10:12:46 AM »
A good ported EFI intake with a Holly 350 or a Motorcraft carb will preform better than any 6114 intake. The EFI intake with a Holly 350 or 500 carb is what most of the mini stock racers use. The Autolite / Motorcraft carb is the easy way to go with equal gains of the Holly.
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: Carburetor orientation on 4 barrel manifold
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2017, 12:42:32 PM »
Best running / fastest 2.3L Pinto I ever saw used a 2.0L weber intake with an adapter to fit a 2.3L head plus DCOE Weber 45's. Owner stated that on the dyno it made 250 HP.
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Offline Spartan6

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Re: Carburetor orientation on 4 barrel manifold
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2017, 11:29:56 AM »
A good ported EFI intake with a Holly 350 or a Motorcraft carb will preform better than any 6114 intake. The EFI intake with a Holly 350 or 500 carb is what most of the mini stock racers use. The Autolite / Motorcraft carb is the easy way to go with equal gains of the Holly.

We ran a 2bbl carb on the efi intake last season, they didn't do well.  Our engine is a little strange, whoever built it went to a lot of trouble to spin it to 9k, but didn't bother opening up the head at all.  We're fixing that this winter.  We'll still be real high compression, but going from stock valves to the big ones, opening the head up, increasing lift from .435/.460 to .584, etc, etc, etc.  As we're road race/autocross, that off corner grunt is priceless, and we cant keep it with a single plane manifold and the 2bbl. 

We're basically building a 2.5 challenge trans am car, and some of the later ones ran the offy with a 390cfm 4bbl.

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Re: Carburetor orientation on 4 barrel manifold
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2017, 11:31:25 AM »
This might help:  http://www.fordpinto.com/general-help/how-does-a-4-bbl-fit-on-my-pinto/

Appreciate it, thanks.  I think we've figured out a mod that'll let us put it on 90 degrees off of the usual method.

Offline dick1172762

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Re: Carburetor orientation on 4 barrel manifold
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2017, 12:31:49 PM »
There are several things you need to consider. First of all by the time the 2.3 Lima engine hit the market the under 2.5 trans am class was on the way out. I never saw / heard of a 2.3 Lima Pinto being raced in the class. They were raced in the IMSA classes by people like Racer Walsh. Second of all I never saw / heard of any 2.5 L racer that didn't use DCOE Weber's. All of the cars in the 2.5 L class used Webers. Third, after the 2.5 L class was dropped, and most of the Pintos ended up in B-Sedan SCCA races, the really fast ones used a 2.0 L weber intake with an adapter to fit the 2.3 Lima engine. I raced the B-sedan class all over the mid-west and Weber's were all I ever saw reguardless of the type or make of the cars. The IMSA cars had to run a Holley 500 cfm two barrel carb per their rules. Fourth, the 390 cfm Holley was never a track carb and was only used for the street mostly on small V6 and 4 cylinder cars. This is what I saw / heard / read in the last 46 Years of Pinto building / racing / autocrossing. Go Weber's or go slow rime would surely fit here. If you really want to go fast, get a set of the GT-Pinto rules and you will marvel at how fast those car went with very few mods. They ran a stock intake with a Holley 500 two barrel carb, a header, and any cam. The cars were very fast and the build cost very little.
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Offline Spartan6

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Re: Carburetor orientation on 4 barrel manifold
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2017, 01:50:16 PM »
I appreciate the insight, and didn't mean to come off as a know-it-all, by any means.  We're takers off any and all tips and tricks available.

Part of our program, working with veterans, involves working on, troubleshootin g, modifying, and making better or worse through trial and error.  We found out last season that, for our purposes, the 350cfm 2bbl and EFI manifold doesn't cut it.  One of the guys stumbled upon the old Racer Walsh Catalog (1973?) and the 6114 and 4bbl were listed, so we've sourced those, and will see if it makes a difference.

If we find that's not taking us where we want to go, I'm sure we'll look for other options.  We don't have a particular class or HP limit to adhere to, so we may even go turbo one day.

I do really appreciate the advice though, and I'm sure we'll have more in the future.

Offline dick1172762

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Re: Carburetor orientation on 4 barrel manifold
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2017, 02:59:54 PM »
More than glad to help you when I can. I've spent the last 46 years playing with my 16 Pintos. Have you though of racing vintage? Almost all the Pintos racing today are racing vintage. Racer Walsh's son is the most well known Pinto but there are several more including my old red Pinto. All 3000 miles from you, but there must be vintage races somewhere in the nw. If I was to start racing again, vintage is were I would go.
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Offline Spartan6

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Re: Carburetor orientation on 4 barrel manifold
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2017, 05:58:50 PM »
We primarily will be using the pinto as an autocross car with the occasional trip to Portland or Thunderhill for driver's training events.  We are very fortunate out here to have a purpose built autocross/kart track right in town, it's got kerbs and everything. So we are lucky in that we don't have to play in the cones.

I think the non-profit is just about wrapped up, and our goal for 2018 is to continue our autocross program as well as reaching out into ICSCC racing and possibly some NASA club stuff, with the target being the 8 hour enduro at PIR in October, and then on to the 25 hours of Thunderhill next December.  Though all of that will be run in one of our big boy Mustang race cars.

I've talked to Brian Walsh about several things, he's been a good resource for sure, and I'm sure will continue to be.

If you have a good way of keeping the camber from slipping, I'd love to hear it!  Other than being down on power and lean, that was our biggest struggle last year.  We'd set our camber only to find, by the end of the weekend that it had slipped into the -6 deg neighborhood, which kept about 4in of our 9.5in wide slicks, in the air and not working.

We love the pinto.  It always gathers a crowd, and then shocks people with how quick and nimble it is.  And it will soldier on as the car that introduces these veterans to road racing.

I do thank you again for your advice, and I know I'll be back for more.

Offline dick1172762

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Re: Carburetor orientation on 4 barrel manifold
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2017, 09:56:08 AM »
That's a new one for me. Never had the camber ever move. I autocrossed my red Pinto several years when the cost of road racing got to be too much. I ran a 4:11 with a Detroit locker with 21 x 9 slicks. For any Pinto road raced or autocrossed the biggest gain was a 9 or 10 lbs flywheel bar none. As for down on power, what timing do you run? I always ran 36 to 38 degs as its hard to run too much timing on an autocross track when most of the time your in second gear and the load on the engine is not as great as it would be in high gear. BTW there is nothing wrong running the 390 carb sideways as it works just fine that way. My son used that setup on his 74 Pinto autocross car and it ran great with no problems in tight turns. BTW#2 have you tried hill climbs with your car? Its really big in the NW with 6 or 7 races each year. Have you raced Keith Olsen's EP Pinto in your area ? Hill climb info is at  http://www.nhahillclimb.org  Please post some pictures. More later as needed~~~Dick
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: Carburetor orientation on 4 barrel manifold
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2017, 12:48:57 PM »
This site will tell you all there is about racing a 2.3L engine.   http://www.4m.net/archive/index.php/f-24.htm   Its very long but GREAT tech on a 2.3L  Also 4m.net is a mini stock site.
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Offline Spartan6

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Re: Carburetor orientation on 4 barrel manifold
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2017, 03:14:42 PM »
That's a new one for me. Never had the camber ever move. I autocrossed my red Pinto several years when the cost of road racing got to be too much. I ran a 4:11 with a Detroit locker with 21 x 9 slicks. For any Pinto road raced or autocrossed the biggest gain was a 9 or 10 lbs flywheel bar none. As for down on power, what timing do you run? I always ran 36 to 38 degs as its hard to run too much timing on an autocross track when most of the time your in second gear and the load on the engine is not as great as it would be in high gear. BTW there is nothing wrong running the 390 carb sideways as it works just fine that way. My son used that setup on his 74 Pinto autocross car and it ran great with no problems in tight turns. BTW#2 have you tried hill climbs with your car? Its really big in the NW with 6 or 7 races each year. Have you raced Keith Olsen's EP Pinto in your area ? Hill climb info is at  http://www.nhahillclimb.org  Please post some pictures. More later as needed~~~Dick

We haven't done a hillclimb yet, as I'm the only guy with enough experience to run.  Hoping I can get a couple of guys to get a little experience under their belts, so they can go experience one.  We're out of Medford, and I'm real old school as I remember the Keno and Onion Mountain hillclimbs. 

I've spoken to Keith a very little bit, He's about 2 hours north of us, and our cars look almost exactly alike, so people have confused one for the other.  We ran EP last year, but likely will fall into a modified class of some sort next year, as the power to weight ratio doesn't technically meet class requirements.

We have tons of pictures and videos at: https://www.facebook.com/roguespartansracing/ For whatever reason, I'm not allowed to upload here.

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Re: Carburetor orientation on 4 barrel manifold
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2017, 05:35:55 PM »
Looked at the pictures and the car looked great. Your having fun and that's what its all about. Car looks like it should fit EP forever' You might need to add weight if they ever weigh you. My red car had to carry 100 lbs of lead to make the weight in SCCA. Only thing I saw that looked bad was the fuel pump and hoses inside the car. That would be ok with AN hoses but not with rubber. I write the FAQ tech and I was the tech at the Red River Regon several years. I pick every car I see apart so don't mind me please.
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Re: Carburetor orientation on 4 barrel manifold
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2017, 06:10:27 PM »
The fuel line will all be braid next season, that was a 1 shot test to ensure that fuel flow wasn't an issue. As far as the classification goes, we shall see. Without the motor in the car one guy can pick it up by the core support!

But yeah, having fun and introducing veterans to racing is goal one.

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Re: Carburetor orientation on 4 barrel manifold
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2017, 11:01:07 AM »
I am a (Korean) veteran also so I can understand what you are doing. How much the value last will only be told by time. I wish you all the best in your quest. Please make me your far flung member in the tech department. BTW I think I remember the weight of a SCCA EP car with a 2.3L engine is 2100 lbs. Your car with all sheet medal will weigh that much I think. My IT-B 80 Pinto weighed 2375 lbs with a full tank of gas and only an Autopower roll bar like yours. Its hard to drop a lot of weight on a Pinto without cutting the car up. My red 72 Pinto weighed 1970 lbs without the lead weight. The dash and the doors have the most weight you can remove. Looks like you have already done that so a little here and there is all that's left. Lexan windows will help drop some. BTW#2 A late model Ranger 2.3L starter will drop some and give you a hi-torque starter too. A 84 Ranger disc brake without power master cylinder will also help too. Please don't cut the car up just to remove a little weight. Do you live where they build those big helicopter that they use to fight fires?
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Offline Spartan6

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Re: Carburetor orientation on 4 barrel manifold
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2017, 04:30:22 PM »
I will keep you in mind, for sure.

As far as the weight goes, we don't really have any clue as to what it is.  EP, acording to the SCCA rule book I have is .1.00 x displacement (cc), which should stick us at 2300#.  I think we're way lighter than that, I've got a friend with scales that we're going to use to help set up the suspension, then we'll know for sure.  We will be putting a complete cage in the car, which will add a little.  We have a lexan rear window, and no other glass other than the windshield.  We don't plan on cutting on the car any, though we may add somewhat of a wide body fender flare, because if we're going to be in a modified class, we may as well exploit the availability of wider rubber.  We've also talked about moving to a 16 inch mustang wheel, so we can use a radial slick...That's still way up in the air though.

Good to know on the starter and brakes, our starter struggles at times with the compression, and mechanically fixed advance, and going faster means we need to stop faster.

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Re: Carburetor orientation on 4 barrel manifold
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2017, 10:21:07 AM »
Just looked at the SCCA 2017 rule book on line and in EP it says that no EP car has to weigh more than 2200 lbs or less than 1350 lbs. This max weight is before any extra weight is to be added for 10" wheels and other mods. So a 2200 lbs weight is close to what you are going to weigh after you add the rest of your cage.
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