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Author Topic: 5 Speed Transmission  (Read 2566 times)

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Offline PintoMan1

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2019, 07:36:25 PM »

thanks guys for the information. I didn't think it was a t9 when I say the shifter location. and as far as cutting up my car, no way I want to do that after I put 4 years into rebuilding it from ground up. I am just going to have to do more research on this.


also as far as the picture of the t5, he also mentioned that he had a 2.3 for sale as well. I think that is what he had it for.


Glen
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Offline The Whistler

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2019, 07:48:19 PM »
Wittsend please clarify Mustang version. A Mustang used the following engines a I4 a I6 a V6 and a V8 over the years! The SVO had it's own versions of the T5 but they will fit in place of any 4cyl Trans. All the non worldclass T5 used behind a 4 cyl are the same. All worldclass used behind a 4 cyl are the same except the SVO T5s. And there are differences in the T5 used behind the V6s and V8s over the years besides gear ratios! The input shafts are different lengths between certain years!
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Offline LongTimeFordMan

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2019, 08:00:01 PM »
The input shaft of a t5 is different than the factory 4 speed. in length, spline and pilot bearing.. Also there were several varients of the t5 all with different input shaft lengths, splines pilot bearings to fit different applications.. also several bell housings. there is one t5 that supposedly was installed in a v6 ford that has an input shaft with the proper spline but you need to add a 1" spacer between the engine and bell housing.. but you need to have a pilot bearing custom made and find a clutch that matches both the spline and flywheel.

The bolt locations for the 2.3 bell housing will not fit the 2.0 engine.

You may also need to cut a hole in the tunnel to relocate the shifter even with the t9

The rear trans.mount is the easiest part...

The reason folks use the t9 is that it was built to fit the 2.0 engine bolt pattern, spline, etc.

The t5 was built to mate to the 2.3 and later engines

.as i mentioned above.. easiest and cheepest solution.. find a 6 3/4 rear end with 3.40 gears..

Find a decent factory FoG Type E 4 speed, have it rebuilt. Add a few engine mods for more torque, add some.14" tires and let the stock 2.0  sing down the road at 3000 rpms at 70 mph like it was designed to.. 

With a 5 speed you will need to get up about 80 mph to get to the optimum enngine speed..

5 speeds for great for racing cars with really low rear ratios.. 3.70- 4.11 that need max acceleration a t a wide range of speeds.. a 5 speed provides more ratios but for street driving first gear would be really low.

For my car with 3.40 rear end and 14" tires my 1st gear  is really short 23 mph and takes less than a few seconds to top out even if i rev it to 6000 rpm. On wet roads or gravel difficult to avour wheel spin.

 2nd tops at about 50 at 5000 rpm.  I cruise at 1800 rpm at 40 mph in 4th around town.
Generally dont use 3rd much except at 30 mph and accellerating onto fwy, just 1,2 4 shifrs

. First gear with a 4.11 rear end and 5 speed would prolly top out at 18 at 4500 rpm. In a race car that turns 7000 plus rpm this would be useful not in a street car.

And 4th the gear with stock carb would top at maybe 55 at 4500. This is where you NEED 5th gear..

 You probably wont notice any benefit from the effort necessary to find and install a t9 except having that sexy shift knob with a 5 speed pattern on it and probably wont use 5 gear except for high speed crusing on flat or downhill..and prolly no increase in fuel economy.

Did you check the link to taylor racing.. they are experts on both  Type 9 FoG and merkur t9

 And will sell.you one for only $2000 us


Ps.. with the above mods  to my car i have  driven it on the last 3 pinto.stampede s each 3000 miles over freeway and mountain back roads.. kept up with bothe the 2.3, v6 and v8 cars.. just hummed down the road at 3000 rpm all day long.

Also.. even with 3.40 rear end and 14" tires my 4 speed is really short 23 mph.even if i rev it to 6000 rpm. First gear with a 4.11 rear end and 5 speed would prolly top out at 18. And 4 the gear aithe stock carb would top at maybe 55 at 4500
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

Offline Wittsend

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2019, 10:49:25 PM »
Wittsend please clarify Mustang version. A Mustang used the following engines a I4 a I6 a V6 and a V8 over the years! The SVO had it's own versions of the T5 but they will fit in place of any 4cyl Trans. All the non worldclass T5 used behind a 4 cyl are the same. All worldclass used behind a 4 cyl are the same except the SVO T5s. And there are differences in the T5 used behind the V6s and V8s over the years besides gear ratios! The input shafts are different lengths between certain years!

Yes, I was remiss, I assumed that most people know the 3.35 was used behind the V-8 Mustangs (and is the transmission I was referring to). Behind the 2.0 he has strength is probably not an issue.  While I did differentiate it from the 2.3 T-5 (less the SVO exception) I did not specify it specific to the V-8 version.

 For the most part until the original poster can identify what specific T-5 transmission he has?, or is it he was considering it?, or he thought it was a t-9??? - this is starting to get confusing..., all this information while ultimately of value might be clouding the issue. And if even with a T-9 he doesn't want to cut the under carpet trans tunnel slightly I think the situation is solved because it doesn't seem to be going forward.

Offline russosborne

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2019, 10:50:41 PM »
here are a couple of good write-ups about the various T-5 transmissions.

http://www.moderndriveline.com/Technical_Bits/t5_history.htm

http://www.rosehillperformanceparts.com/Trans%20ID%20chart.htm

hope this helps.

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

Offline LongTimeFordMan

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2019, 10:54:33 PM »
Well I still suggest just keeping the factory 4 speed , making some minor engine and tire mods to improve driveability and save money especially since he doesnt want to mod the pinto structure
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

Offline Wittsend

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2019, 11:28:23 PM »

Well I still suggest just keeping the factory 4 speed , making some minor engine and tire mods to improve driveability and save money especially since he doesnt want to mod the pinto structure


I don't necessarily disagree. Way back in post #4 (reply #3) I stated:
 "Note that some have used the T-5 but the consensus is varied. Some find it OK while others say the slightest incline (or head wind) force you out of 5th gear."


I was simply giving information (a "5 speed transmission" question was asked in the first post) that a T-5 was an option (and what was entailed from experience with a 2.3) since the T-5 came up in the discussion.  And, that GENERALLY (meaning most likely to find) some T-5's came with the 4.00 1st gear (2.3) and others were 3.35 (Mustang - failing to state on my part a V-8 Mustang). I'm not a salesman promoting the T-5 behind a 2.0, I'm just giving information for the original poster to decide for himself. And as we have both noted, it seems he already has.


I find myself in a similar predicament with my Sunbeam Tiger. An early car it has  the 2.32 1st gear close ratio gear set and the narrow pattern transmission on a 5 bolt bellhousing (early 289). Toploaders are getting extremely pricey and the cost to go to a wide ratio isn't in my wallet. I'd like to go with a Mustang V-8 T-5 but the trans to bellhousing bolt pattern isn't there. And late trans pattern/5 bolt bellhousing (usually a dual pattern bellhousing) are rather rare and expensive. And finally where as the 2.32 is too tall for 1st gear in the Toploader the 3.35 many say is too short in the T-5.  The ideal in the Tiger is the aftermarket 2.95 but you won't be finding one of those for $150 at Pick Your Part. So, yea, I get transmission conundrums. :(


Lastly I thought I had found my solution similar to your recommendation . A Jeep Toploader (T-178) came with 3.00 1st gear and a 1:1 4th gear. I was considering swapping that gearset into my case and running a taller tire. That in essence would have brought me down to the equivalent of a wide ratio (2.78) Toploader and also effectively been equal to some degree of overdrive.  Seemed like a great idea but for 15 years finding a T-178 is very elusive.  Even on Jeep forums they don't seem to enter discussion.  I asked once and got no effective reply.

Offline LongTimeFordMan

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2019, 11:50:47 PM »
Back in about 68 my brother in tacoma wa found a tiger with a 289, 4 speed, 4bbl and aluminum flywheel. He bought it for $1100.   Not sure of the trans ratio but he said that 1st gear started pulling at about 30 mph.. he ran it in the 1/4 mile and topped off 2nd at about 120 mph.

But with stock tires and wet roads traction was a real problem

From my understanding early 289 engines had different bolt patterns from the later ones...

My brother also raced pintos in the 90s and when i asked about a 5 speed he mentioned the elusive v6 model with a 1"spacer plate.. 

I looked at trying to find a 5 speed conversion for my 73 wagon but decided that the gain wasnt worth the  effort  and my 4 speed does as much as i could ever want.. goes down the road reliably..

But i am in the market for a good 4 speed core to have rebuilt as a spare..

Taylor will do a rebuild to racing specs for $500
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

Offline The Whistler

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2019, 08:32:20 AM »
LTFM I disagree with you on some things. Mostly because of my personal experience in this matter! I will not compare racing applications to this. That is like comparing apples to oranges. A Pinto was not a premier car and American auto manufactures were too cheap to put a 5 speed trans in a Pinto! European and Japanese used them with great success in much lesser cars with smaller less powerful engines at that time!   
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Offline LongTimeFordMan

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2019, 11:56:35 AM »
Well i agree with what you just posted as well and not trying to be argumentative

Ive done a lot of stuff with MG cars, especially MGA and MGB which had 1400 and 1800 cc engines. They all had 4 speeds and some had laycock hydro electric  overdrives to provide a 5th top gear..

But they also had 3.90 rear ratios to allow for low ratios for starting  but topped out quickly at highway speeds in 4 gear, typically about 3800 rpm at 65.

The OD reduced the engine speed to about 3000 at 65, BUT on hills itas necessary to shift out of OD .

So the OD was a way to provide more ratios to accomplish an overall  low 1st with a moderately comfortable highway ratio to allow the engine to cruise at 3000 rpm overall.

The key was the overall ratio including bothe the low 3.90 real end and optional high ratio 5th gear to provide a 3000 rpm cruise.

Most folks today feel that simply bolting a transmission with a higher top ratio to their existing normally high rear ratio will provide more speed or fuel ecnomy but as mentioned before. A STOCK 2.0 might not be able to pull the higher top ratio on anything except flat or downhill roads and bogging the engine could decrease economy..

And newer cars with engine management systems can vary both fuel delivery AND IGNITION TIMING to match engine loading.. something early pintos lacked.. thats why some newer cars with 5 or 6 speed trans can get high mileage its not necessarily the transmission.

To optomize the overall performance you need to look at the overall ratio inluding top trans ratio, rear ratio, tire size and engine power band.

Some cars are optomized for a low engine power band some for high. Stock 2.0 Pintos seem to like about 3000 rpm minimum for hills and highway.. below this requires a lower ratio.

The advantage of a 5 speed would best be realized by using a 3.80 or 4.11 rear gear (which is a difficult find for the factory 6 3/4 rear end) with a 5 speed to improve the BOTTOM END accelleration and allow  comfortable highway cruise at 3000 rpm.

But again with a few minor engine mods you can improve the low end torque and expand the overall power band to accomplish the better acceleration without any major gearing changes. So its a matter of efficiency and money and effort from there..and how much time you want to spend wrenching on the car.

If you want you could install.an aftermarket OD unit on the rear end and end up with an 8 speed. Its just a matter of time and money.

Bottom line..I considered both the t9 and t5 conversions and  if someone gave me a T9 in good shape or i could find one for a couple hundred dollars, I would probably bolt it in but I prolly wouldnt spend time chasing one down.. my factory 4 speed does everything i need it to do including 3000 mile pinto stampeds every year over freeways and mountain roads and serves as my daily driver.

I am in the market for a good spare to have rebuilt to have on hand for the future.
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

Offline The Whistler

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2019, 01:01:04 PM »
I have no desire to cause an argument either! Just share info and thoughts! I am not trying to encourage or discourage from going the 5 speed route. There are pros and cons to doing this we both weighted in on both sides of the argument. It will take work money and patience to get this right.And most of all it will not be for anyone but the right one! Also if you feel you are the one and can commit to it go for it! I can offer you all my experience to help you on this journey!
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Offline The Whistler

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2019, 01:18:24 PM »
Side note we are in the middle of a 2.3 build and we have considered a modern 10 speed auto as a trans of choice to put behind this build. Yes it will be high HP build 450 HP on base tune and we would like to see if we can get 30 plus MPG  on the highway. I have gotten 40ish MPG out of current set-up using 5 speed that puts out 400ish on the ground!
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