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Author Topic: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?  (Read 11385 times)

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Offline gaeliccouple

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Greetings all. I have a stock 1978 with a 2300 with stock 2 barrel carb and I would like to find an easy way to add  a little more horse power.

 The car runs well, but I was wondering if anyone has had luck upping the horse power with a different carb while leaving everything else stock? Ideally I would like something that bolts directly on to the stock intake manifold and easily hooks up to the throttle cable.

Any ideas?

Offline Pinturbo75

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2013, 08:55:36 PM »
exhaust is one of the easiest ways to free up hp....a late 80s early 90s mustang or ranger factory header will be a cheap upgrade and should give you what youre looking for...use the roller cam from them also and you should see a little more
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Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2013, 08:58:59 PM »
In a stock engine I've always heard there are a few HP in a Ranger header & free flowing 2" dia. exhaust & a Ranger roller cam replacing a worn slider delivers a few more but that's about it.
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Offline Fred Morgan

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2013, 09:00:49 PM »
You can get the 10 by removing egr adapter under existing carb and go with 2500 carb it will bolt right on your manifold. You can use existing throt. cable and fabricate arm to support throt. cable as I did on my 73 with 94 Ranger engine 2.3 .   Fred   :)

At Ford dealer they estimated I had 110 HP. I also do have Ford headers on it and of coarse roller cam. I forgot with Mazda hydraulic clutch 5 speed and about 6.7  3.50 gears.
 
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Offline gaeliccouple

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2013, 09:05:37 PM »
Thanks all.

What do you mean by "roller cam" and "slider" ?? Are you talking about the cam shaft?? 

I have removed all the emissions save the PVC and cadilitic converter. No egr here :-)

Offline jeremysdad

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2013, 02:46:53 PM »
Basic:

2.3 that you have. Eliminate the cat, air pump (SMOG pump), EGR...everythi ng but the PCV. Install an earlier model Holley 5200 (or better yet, buy a real Weber 32/36, but that's a diff post). Add a header from a Ranger (does require slight modification, but not a big deal since you're replacing your exhaust anyway ;)). Swap in a complete valve train from a Ranger that has the roller valve-train, and you're done. Easy-peasy, if you are mechanically inclined. :)

And as to 'slider'...I will assume that was a 'smart-phone' typo. lol I've never heard of such, except in reference to hamburgers. :)

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2013, 06:01:37 PM »
I believe a "slider" is a flat tappet cam instead of a roller. ;)
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Offline amc49

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2013, 08:23:50 PM »
Header will add more than the switch to earlier bigger carb. The stock 2.3 manifold either round or D-port is absolute garbage for power. Stock early carb flows around 270 cfm, past around 300 or so the manifold becomes the limiting factor on the intake side.

I had a 2.3 with a lightly ported head, mainly in valve pocket, stock big early carb rejetted and cam and a 2.0 intake manifold with adapter plate and a Hooker header on a Mustang II, I guarantee more than 10 horse added there, I guessed around 130ish. It stayed right up with my zetec cars which rate at 130 and the Mustang pulled harder at low to mid rpm.

You still have to retain the EGR spacer plate when dumping EGR since the lower pattern is for stock Holley or Motorcraft 2100 two bbl. No matter, the plate simply adds more garbage to already garbage manifold.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2013, 09:59:29 PM »
The stock 2.3 manifold either round or D-port is absolute garbage for power.
What's actually wrong with it?, is it just the design or could it be improved with some porting to equal the 2.0 intake?. Sorry for the dumb questions just never got into small engines, always been into the big V8's.
Art
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Offline amc49

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2013, 02:11:27 AM »
Too flat, the top entry has to turn too hard to change to go sideways. The 2.3 runners are two short and two long like on 2.0 but the top is woefully incomplete to make the effective length even worse than the short ones on 2.0. Half of runner length is missing on top of runner, because plenum was crammed into it. Too much change in sharp angles, the 2.0 is all gradual curves like airflow likes. 2.0 also has a length from top into runner entry that allows air to curve without dropping out fuel, which is a major problem on these motors, the ports are too big in diameter, why they half-as-ed tried to improve it by going to D port. The D port extending into manifold takes what would have been a good idea and makes it worse. Or a nice flat floor for fuel to slam into and drop out of suspension with air. The bottom half of port literally flows no air at all, all flow comes at the roof. They were trying to shrink port to bring mixture speed up at low rpm by eliminating the low flow area. The 2.0 intake is so much better that it actually still improves flow even though the entry from manifold to head on the outside cylinders does not match, a big overhang there. 2.0 manifold actually outflows almost any aftermarket manifold made to fit the 2.0, even the hi-perf ones. Works very well on 2.3 too even though mismatched ports, but you have to use an adapter plate to fit it to the 2.3 head. 2.0 does not have the EGR plate that screws up airflow even further either. You can fit a Holley or Motorcraft 2 bbl. directly on the 2.3 manifold with EGR adapter removed but the resulting combo is so flat that it does not work either. No room for fuel to turn the right angle corner from vertical to sideways. As a result, the throttle bores with a partially open butterfly really feed some screwy flow patterns there. All engines like at least 2 inches or more to get past a partially open butterfly to straighten so it can make the turn into top of runners. Why spacer plates under carb can help like V-8 manifolds at that point. Adds distance to allow mix to make the turn easily without fuel drop out. Curve at top of runner entries helps too rather than a sharp right angle. The 2.3 manifold is an absolute disaster as far as that is concerned.

Hard to believe that engineers could so butcher a manifold on a simple four cylinder engine like that but Ford definitely managed to do it. It's like they did everything they could think of to make it not work right. They could have added another inch here and there and the manifold would have added ten HP to the engine by itself, or what the 2.0 intake pretty much does.

It's absolutely the design, no way on earth could you ever port that thing out to match the other manifold.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2013, 08:08:44 AM »
Thanks, that explains it guess I won't mess with that intake then, thought about doing a clean up and blending and make a spacer to eliminate the EGR plate, not worth messing with now.
Art
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Offline Pintosopher

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2013, 12:24:36 PM »
Too flat, the top entry has to turn too hard to change to go sideways. The 2.3 runners are two short and two long like on 2.0 but the top is woefully incomplete to make the effective length even worse than the short ones on 2.0. Half of runner length is missing on top of runner, because plenum was crammed into it. Too much change in sharp angles, the 2.0 is all gradual curves like airflow likes. 2.0 also has a length from top into runner entry that allows air to curve without dropping out fuel, which is a major problem on these motors, the ports are too big in diameter, why they half-as-ed tried to improve it by going to D port. The D port extending into manifold takes what would have been a good idea and makes it worse. Or a nice flat floor for fuel to slam into and drop out of suspension with air. The bottom half of port literally flows no air at all, all flow comes at the roof. They were trying to shrink port to bring mixture speed up at low rpm by eliminating the low flow area. The 2.0 intake is so much better that it actually still improves flow even though the entry from manifold to head on the outside cylinders does not match, a big overhang there. 2.0 manifold actually outflows almost any aftermarket manifold made to fit the 2.0, even the hi-perf ones. Works very well on 2.3 too even though mismatched ports, but you have to use an adapter plate to fit it to the 2.3 head. 2.0 does not have the EGR plate that screws up airflow even further either. You can fit a Holley or Motorcraft 2 bbl. directly on the 2.3 manifold with EGR adapter removed but the resulting combo is so flat that it does not work either. No room for fuel to turn the right angle corner from vertical to sideways. As a result, the throttle bores with a partially open butterfly really feed some screwy flow patterns there. All engines like at least 2 inches or more to get past a partially open butterfly to straighten so it can make the turn into top of runners. Why spacer plates under carb can help like V-8 manifolds at that point. Adds distance to allow mix to make the turn easily without fuel drop out. Curve at top of runner entries helps too rather than a sharp right angle. The 2.3 manifold is an absolute disaster as far as that is concerned.

Hard to believe that engineers could so butcher a manifold on a simple four cylinder engine like that but Ford definitely managed to do it. It's like they did everything they could think of to make it not work right. They could have added another inch here and there and the manifold would have added ten HP to the engine by itself, or what the 2.0 intake pretty much does.

It's absolutely the design, no way on earth could you ever port that thing out to match the other manifold.
AMC is correct, the stock 2.0 manifold is closer to ideal. I massaged a Stock 2.0 manifold to take the edges off the turn from the downdraft portion on the upper portion of the Runners and gained crisper throttle response, but still no big gains UNTIL I bolted a Weber non-progressive 38DGAS onto this manifold. Then we had great power up to 3500-4000 rpm with no other engine mods , Just a Hooker Super Comp 4 into 1 header and long glasspack muffler. And then I needed more so I bought and installed the Semi race IMSA Motor with 2 sidedrafts. and Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus at 6500- 7000RPM 8)
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

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Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2013, 12:30:26 PM »
From what I gather it seems like the 2.0 is a lot better motor than the 2.3 is to begin with?..
Art
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Offline Pintosopher

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2013, 12:34:03 PM »
Only if you wish to stop at 160 HP Street legal on Pump gas with no Smog burdens ,then the Cyl head and Money can get you Huge power from Esslinger for the 2.3l and it will be a Moot point.... ::)
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

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Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2013, 12:42:10 PM »
Yeah same ole thing, "how fast you want to go is how much you want to spend",lol, No smog burdens here I refuse to deal with that crap.
Art
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Offline slowride

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2013, 02:38:55 PM »
A little something I came up with for the stock intake and carb. Helped the idle and mid-range (post 24).
http://www.fordpinto.com/your-project/2-3-mods/msg113292/#msg113292

Offline amc49

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2013, 03:51:24 PM »
I too at one time thought about modding a stock 2.3 manifold, after looking at it became convinced way too much effort for little gained there. The 2.0 intake with adapter just looked so much better.

When it comes to basic engine though, I'll take the 2.3, 300cc. is 30 hp in my world. The cam support in head is much better too. Not big on the intake port layout though, somebody was really sleeping when that one was designed. EVERY SINGLE PORT is different from the others, a record there.

At one time was scouting for an EFI intake to mod to take a carb but other things got in the way.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2013, 09:44:43 PM »
Reading that thread was enlightening now I understand what's going on, that piece don't look too hard to make either.
Art
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Offline jeremysdad

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2013, 01:31:08 AM »
I'll stick with my proven old school tech, any day of the week.

2.0 intake is single plane, and as such...wants a large cam, lots of gas...and a manually-shifted, high-stall automatic. Maybe with a line lock. But, burnouts are for people with tire-sponsors. :D lol

Oh...was that an EGR spacer? Why the hell did they even make those??? lol Never met one that didn't: a:)require a drill bit to actually be open, and B:)not be a horribly stupid idea lol

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2013, 08:57:24 AM »
Looks like I'm gonna have to find a couple of intakes and do some experimenting I guess.. :)
Art
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Offline amc49

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2013, 03:04:37 PM »
Uh, a single plane intake on a four is the same as a dual plane on a V-8, really no difference there. The single plane if designed right can have every bit of response the dual plane can. Mopar used single plane intakes on many of its' V-8 smallblocks. Look at Edelbrock's Torker series, they outperformed their own hi-rise dual plane line. The dual planes had bigger passages that lost torque at lower rpm. The Performer series one-upped that even more and designed to increase power over stock dual plane manifolds used at the time at both low and higher rpm of dead stock engines.

Offline gaeliccouple

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2013, 05:14:28 PM »
Will the intake manifold off a stock 2.0 pinto motor bolt straight onto a 2.3 cylinder head without modifications?????

Offline jeremysdad

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2013, 01:28:53 PM »
No.

Offline thmpsn70

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2013, 07:04:20 PM »
slowride that was a very good write up,, why did you stop? was waiting to see how he maifold worked after milling out the obstruction, I am doing a blow through turbo on a 2.3, and using laramee's advice im going to use the efi manifold with a holley 350 2 barrel on it, joe told me the mis match from the d-port mani to the oval head creates a vacuum  the assists the air turning into the valve, and since he is quite knowledgeable i am choosing to listen, but i was curious to what milling that out did for you.. Timmy

Offline slowride

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2013, 09:56:41 AM »
My machinist never got around to milling out the dividers and said screw it and closed the doors. I got the intake back, but all that's done to it is radiusing the top edge of the ports in the plenum.

Offline Jerry merrill

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2013, 07:37:17 PM »
I'm not sure if you have an auto or manual trans but the 38/38 DGAS weber carb with secondary side opening the same time as the primary side will wake up a 2.3. I have experimented with making the secondary side open up with the primary on the stock 71 carb but without a squirter in the secondary side it will bog. The 38/38 has a squirter in the secondary side. On ebay for around 230 bucks. You will lose some economy though.

Offline amc49

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2013, 07:44:36 PM »
It's not hard to drill the primary only squirter to be one with secondary as well.......... .............. ..

Offline Jauntimus Prime

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2013, 06:42:05 PM »
Apparently the '85-up EFI lower intake holds a lot of promise. I have one laying around waiting to be repurposed.

Who here has messed around with this setup?
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Offline Srt

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2013, 03:08:06 AM »

AMC is correct, the stock 2.0 manifold is closer to ideal. I massaged a Stock 2.0 manifold to take the edges off the turn from the downdraft portion on the upper portion of the Runners and gained crisper throttle response, but still no big gains UNTIL I bolted a Weber non-progressive 38DGAS onto this manifold. Then we had great power up to 3500-4000 rpm with no other engine mods , Just a Hooker Super Comp 4 into 1 header and long glasspack muffler. And then I needed more so I bought and installed the Semi race IMSA Motor with 2 sidedrafts. and Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus at 6500- 7000RPM 8)



ford (Europe) did manufacture a (semi) equal length runner intake for the 2.0.  it had the two inner (2 & 3) runners enter the plenum at the outside & the outer (1 & 4) runners enter the plenum on the inside. not truly equal length but closer than the original as supplied on US sold cars. 


IIRC the carb height was marginally higher but still cleared the hood with an air cleaner applied.

the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

Offline amc49

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Re: I want 10 more horse power, Will a different carb do that for me?
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2013, 01:07:14 AM »
Yeah, looking at the EFI manifold shows it could be a nice part but the adapter needed to mount 2 bbl. on it, well, most of them are 1 inch thick and not enough area there (at least to me) to feed the outside of the 4 runners when that short. Racer Walsh shows a 2 inch one that would be better but hood clearance could then be an issue......... ......

http://www.racerwalsh.zoovy.com/product/RWA1232B_ALUM/adaptor-efi-2bbl-2-Alum.html

Is this the 'euro' part? They say fits some year of Ranger........ ......

http://www.racerwalsh.zoovy.com/product/RWA1118/manifold-canon.html

Nothing against Webers at all, just another carb you gotta find or make parts for. I prefer Holley (got some lying around doing nothing) and next one will be a 350 2 bbl. made out of a 600 #1850 carb. Trying to figure out whether to use 1 11/16" or 1 3/4" baseplate. Parts are where you find them.