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Offline rowdyrunabout

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How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« on: November 12, 2014, 05:21:11 PM »
I have installed an offy 6114dp. I tried to get a 4150 to fit, but it was too big. I now have the Holley 8007 4bbl. It does fit. But I do not know how it is supposed to be orientated. Even the intake plate is directional so it makes a difference which way it turns. Does anyone have pics of this set up? Then the next question is how do I set up the accelerator linkage? Any help would be appreciated.

Offline pinto bismol

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2014, 05:33:56 PM »
simple fix really. Just do exactly what I do when I have issues. Take your car to "rowdyrunabout"s garage and let him fix it! Works every time! ....so far!
Caution.....ex plosive personality!

Offline Wittsend

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2014, 06:10:39 PM »
Looking at a picture of the manifold (assumed correct image from Google images) it looks like there is an adapter needed, thus making it a two piece manifold.  I assume different adapters for different carbs.??? Basically given the need for fuel/air distribution it appears the carb needs to be mounted sideways so the primaries/secondaries go front to back not side to side.  Unless there was some oddball linkage originally designed it would be wise to use a cable setup for the throttle.

  How large was the 4150? The 8007 is listed as 390 CFM and should be more than large enough. Possibly too large if you haven't modified the cam and exhaust (maybe to ports too) to use all that extra air.  As a comparison point the 2.3 is about 144 CI.  A lot of the 260/289 guys find a 450 CFM carb large enough on a stock motor. So, a 289 is twice as large, but only using 60 CFM more than the 8007 is providing your 2.3 (144).

Anyway, I have no experience with your setup, I'm just presenting general aspects for contemplation.

Offline denmach1

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2014, 06:29:47 PM »
I have one of these on one of my Mustangs. I actually have a Holley 600 on it and it runs great! The engine is actually a mini-stock racing engine. The carb mounts sideways. Mine came with a linkage kit that bolts to the carb base that allows the factory throttle linkage to be adapted to it. I may be able to send you a pic tomorrow if you need it. You could possibly find the kit by googling it.

Offline denmach1

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2014, 06:46:20 PM »
Here is a link for an intake with the linkage kit that I have. I can't find the number for it yet but you can see in the pic what it looks like.   http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Offy-Offenhauser-ford-2300-up-to-1982-4-barrel-intake-bronco-mustang-ranger-/151459467483?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2343b010db&vxp=mtr   

Offline Wittsend

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2014, 12:27:18 AM »
"I actually have a Holley 600 on it and it runs great! The engine is actually a mini-stock racing engine."

Well, that would likely explain why. In this case I'm assuming the rest of the engine is stock.

Offline amc49

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2014, 01:00:25 AM »
Most of the 600s out there being vacuum secondary, there is no way of telling if engine is using all of that and I'm betting no.

Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2014, 02:14:11 AM »
I run a holley 4412(500cfm 2v) on mine. I run high compression, big cam, big valves with header and 2.5" exhaust. The 4412 has been built to run on this motor, and it's still more than it really needs... mostly.  Even the ess motors I've seen run the 4412. A 600cfm, with out a doubt, has more flow than the 2.3 could ever justify using. And down tuning a carb is just bad juju.

You'll want the 1", or so, manifold plate. For a few reasons, but mostly to help get the fuel mix into the cylinders in even quantities. And a low profile air cleaner.
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Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2014, 07:00:10 AM »
Most of the 600s out there being vacuum secondary, there is no way of telling if engine is using all of that and I'm betting no.
It would have to flow some HUMONGOUS numbers for a 600 to open all the way, very simple way to find out how much though is with the paperclip trick, put it at the top of the arm and make a pass, then see how far the paperclip moved...
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2014, 10:41:52 AM »
Go to the mini stock web site (4m.net) and you will see how a 600 cfm any kind of carb is way too much. With a FULL RACE ENGINE all say to run a 500 cfm two barrel Holley on a long track (over 1/4 mile) and to run a 350 cfm two barrel holley on a short track (under 1/4 mile). None say to run any kind of a four barrel carb on any kind of a track. The 8007 (390 cfm) carb is not the same as the old 390 cfm Holley as the old one did not have a power valve and the new one does. The 8007 is made for V-6's and small V-8's. Plug the power valve and it MIGHT work on a 2.3. Easy to tell if it would work. Holley tech says that is what you need to do to use it on a 2.3, but they also said that they had never tried that in the lab. Only one way to find out. I have used the old 390 cfm carb on a 2.3 with only a header add on, and it ran great. Seemed like it picked up 50 hp. And which way to mount the carb? I have seen it both ways and it worked the same.
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Offline amc49

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2014, 03:08:37 PM »
I would mount carb so the primaries feed the higher port halves. Most of the flow is there anyway as the bottom of the port flows like pure crap and why the D port head was later made.

a 600 is one half of a 1200, when was the last time you saw a 289 or 302 V8 flow a Holley Dominator carb? Why I said what I did, HIGHLY unlikely. The back barrels may never even open and more like a 360-400 cfm carb at the 2 bbl. carb rating of 3" Hg vacuum then. 4 bbls. rate at 1.5 " and totally different rating. It takes a kick-ss 2.3 to flow a 4412 all the way out, that's half of a Holley 800 there.

Hotrod did a story way back and the 2.3 wouldn't flow the 600 until it was WAY MORE than a ministock engine, it was absolutely undriveable on the street but made 270 hp. @ 7500 rpm. NA not turbo. Didn't begin to even think about making any power until 3500 rpm.  But 4500-7500?  Watch out! Pure high rpm only race engine.

Offline rowdyrunabout

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2014, 05:08:42 PM »
Ok, thanks for the help all around,. denmach1....ve ry funny! You posted the pic of what I installed on my car. that's what I bought off ebay. The exact item with linkage. So that's good- I'm on the right track. A little follow up.. My motor was built by B & R speedshop. was bored and has had a little headwork for compression. Has an aftermarket bigger cam. I'd have to find the tech sheet to get details. Has a speedway 3" header, but had to reduce at the frame to 2.5 to fit. Is a 4 speed too. My pinto has not run with any pep since it was built. The stock 2bbl intake and carb was from a 74 mustang- I think. At idle the motor shakes back and forth, and got 10-13 mph. The speedshop suggested the 4 bbl stating that I had way more cam and motor than fuel. They let me use the holley 4150 double pumper, but it just ran into the valve cover. So the offy intake says use the holley 8007 with 390cfm. I believe it's a vacuum secondary. If anyone does have pics of this set up. I welcome the help and any advice. Thanks!

Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2014, 05:49:19 PM »
The esslinger head has twice the flow, out of the box, as any oem cast head (even ported). And they almost always have a 4412 on them. There is just no way it can pull enough flow to ever use the 600cfm. It's just math.
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Offline denmach1

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2014, 06:44:43 PM »
I appreciate everyone's opinion and knowledge. When I put the 600 on my 2.3, I thought it would be too much. Well, the proof is in the pudding. She runs like a scalded dog and I wouldn't change a thing.  I have a T5 behind it with a 3.55 rear. There are quite few disappointed 5.0 Foxes in  my town who can't believe a little 'ol 2.3 just crushed their hopes and dreams. :\'( Just saying

Offline Jerry merrill

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2014, 07:28:17 PM »
Since the 600 is working for you, how is your engine modified?

Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2014, 07:30:28 PM »
It should run. But there are many issues with too much carb, and anyway you look at it a 600 on a 2.3 is too much. You are likely only getting part of the carbs potential flow, which throws off it's vacuum, which throws tuning. And jetting so far down and probably having the valves too restricted at idle, just because 2.3 liters won't draw, in the range the carb had been designed. Vacuum, fuel and air. It's all about the perfect balance and atomization. Pudding or no, imagine if you had the perfect carb on her!
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Offline denmach1

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2014, 08:20:41 PM »
I'm not sure what the internals of my engine are. I bought it years ago as a crate motor from a shop in Texas. The story as I remember is that this shop built a lot of these for the racing community  and the economy tanked and they slashed the prices. Great deal for me. My first 2.3. Been hooked ever since.

Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2014, 08:29:11 PM »
Yeah, they're fun as hell! And coming from an old school mopar background, they're cheap to play with.
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Offline amc49

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2014, 08:48:26 PM »
Doesn't matter what the internals are; the engine will not flow that much, you don't have enough swept displacement there. The 'running like a scalded dog' verifies it as well, the back barrels are not opening fully and what vacuum secondaries do. They will not open until the engine flows enough to pull them open. Stick a 600 DP on there (won't fit of course)  and that engine will puke its' guts out. Not enough motor, I don't care how radical it is. More radical really does not effect pressure drop in no way like engine physical size does.

Offline rowdyrunabout

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2014, 06:02:06 AM »
I believe you guys need a new thread. We have gone off the track. I'm using a 390cfm and I need some pics of a 4 bbl on a 2.3 please? Thanks

Offline dick1172762

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2014, 10:31:54 AM »
I believe you guys need a new thread. We have gone off the track. I'm using a 390cfm and I need some pics of a 4 bbl on a 2.3 please? Thanks
    Why? We have already told you ever thing you asked for in your original post. Do what you want with that information and let us have our fun.
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2014, 11:39:17 AM »
Go to  http://www.cookieboys.com then to cookieboys toys, then to the 79 bobcat pictures of a 4 barrel carb on a 2.3 engine. Enjoy.
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Offline rowdyrunabout

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2014, 03:53:02 PM »
alright- I'm good now--thanks.


Offline amc49

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2014, 05:54:30 PM »
Make that website www.cookieboys toys.com

Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2014, 11:50:52 PM »
Make that website www.cookieboys toys.com

That's a nice collection! I believe it's an affliction at that point. I should be so lucky.
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Offline amc49

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2014, 08:48:56 PM »
Pics of carb on manifold do not tell the whole tale there. Holley uses pull throttle, the linkage ends up backwards with carb in correct position of front barrels on the high deck of the intake. You have to pull, then push and pull again to recover proper Holley carb action. Why the linkage goes under carb to end up on the other side.

Offline rowdyrunabout

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2014, 04:25:18 PM »
OK, I sat my carb just like the 79 bobcat pic. The offy linkage kit looks like it will work, but it will not. The plate that goes on the carb bolts does not fit. It will not go under the bowl to the studs without hitting. It's an inch or so short. I also don't like this offy linkage, because it has about 10 adjustment screws that on a motor are going to fall out! It does have to pull, then push, then pull the other side. Too much to be reliable. Now the bobcat pic uses a stock cable with a simple homemade bracket. Nothing to fall apart. It pulls like stock, just from the opposite side. I want to do the same thing. I can make that pretty easily. New problem.  My accel cable will not reach. The bobcat has a much longer accel. cable than my 76 pinto. How can that be? Is there another vehicle that has a longer accelerator cable? is a 76 and 79 cable different?

Offline rowdyrunabout

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2014, 05:14:28 PM »
here are a couple of pics to help.

Offline dick1172762

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2014, 05:15:06 PM »
As you can see, the linkage on the 79 Bobcat is home made with the primary barrels pointed toward the valve cover. Has to be a longer cable to reach that far. I have seen the primary's pointing both ways. If you can't get it to work, you can sell it on our site. Maybe even to me. LOL
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Offline 72pair

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2014, 06:09:38 PM »
Simple. I used a fox mustang 2.3 FI throttle cable circa 1987 or so and fabbed a simple bracket off the back carb stud to mount the cable housing.  This cable even has built in return spring. Wish I had a pic to show just how easy.
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