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Offline mrmellowgold

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How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« on: October 21, 2013, 09:20:00 PM »
I just figured out that my second gear issue is most likely due to the broken 2nd gear band that my stepfather and I pulled out. I is split in two, clean break. Transmission fluid looked very clean. It is the only thing preventing me from driving it around. I was hoping somebody could explain how to replace it with a new one (which we are buying off ebay) and properly adjust it. It is a 73 wagon, automatic.
Please let me know any and everything you have to offer. This is the last step to getting my Pinto on the road!

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2013, 10:33:23 PM »
If it's the front band you can change it in the car with a  "Snap band"(I don't recommend it)drop the pan and VB and it's right there, it's a soft band and pretty much a bandaid fix is all it is, otherwise you'll have to pull the tranny, not a big deal it's just behind the pump.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Offline mrmellowgold

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2013, 07:47:04 AM »
Why do you not recommend it? Do you mean the 'snap band' is the replacement intermediate band?
Also, if we pulled it out without having dropped the transmission, doesn't that mean that we can install the new intermediate 2nd gear band without pulling the transmission out?

I can not find even one walk-through or guide online about installing one either... It is kind of annoying  :(

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2013, 08:59:42 AM »
As I said the snap band is a bandaid but works for an emergency as long as you don't put the power to it, they are soft and can be slid around, of course that's if the band is actually broke so you can get it out. You are sure it's the front brake band right?(check diagram), if it's the low-rev band then it has to come apart. I still recommend taking it apart and put a good band in, it's really pretty simple deal. There's quite a few tutorials on this on the net, here's an 8 part on U-Tube on the C-4.

Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Offline mrmellowgold

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2013, 09:26:10 AM »
I dont know if i made it clear earlier, but my pinto ran great and drove fine except it just simply did not go into second gear, it just went from 1st to 3rd, and vise-versa. We popped open the pan and drained it. We then pulled out a snapped band. It is in half and out of the transmission. I assume it is the second gear band and that is what is preventing the car from shifting into second gear. makes sense to me? But we are going to order a brand new 2nd gear intermediate band for a C4 form ebay.
So are you saying that I shouldn't use a Kevlar band? i am just confused as to what you are saying is a bad idea.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2013, 10:17:59 AM »
No I didn't say that, kevlar band is the way to go and what I recommend, the weak soft "snap band" is not a good idea, only thing with the hard band you will have to pull the tranny to install it since it's not flexible. Don't understand why you're confused though..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Offline mrmellowgold

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2013, 12:22:33 PM »
Okay. i understand now.
So i will need to pull the transmission to install the kevlar band right?

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2013, 12:32:14 PM »
That is correct and you'll have to pull the pump and servo off. Check out the video it'll show you how.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Offline mrmellowgold

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2013, 02:27:06 PM »
Any idea how much it would cost to have a shop do it?

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2013, 02:29:13 PM »
Sorry, don't have a clue I always do my own.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Offline HOSS429

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2013, 04:35:42 PM »
you can really mess up a lot of stuff quickly if you dive blindly into an automatic trans ..

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2013, 05:03:48 PM »
Not if you take your time and pay attention, be surprised how simple they are. :D
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Offline amc49

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2013, 06:35:41 PM »
As he says, that one not hard anyway since only going into it a little bit. Main thing is to keep track of the thrust washers to put them back in exactly like they were.

No way would I be putting any band in that does not require trans to pull out, the band works partly based on having the metal backing behind it. Do it right, a real band.

ANYONE can do an ATX, all you need is a good manual. I have no formal training at all and have successfully rebuilt every one I've ever done, and not talking lasting only a year. If it doesn't last 8-10 years I'm upset about it. All you need is the manual to show you critical clearances and thrust washer locations. Then pay attention to load bearing surfaces, or the bushings. Piece of cake.

Offline mrmellowgold

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2013, 12:17:15 PM »
Pulled the transmission out this weekend. Took off the the pump and removed the servos. cleaned the servo pump and everything. put the new band in but i still need to secure it in properly. need to get all new gaskets before i continue. Got a rear and a front seal, but the front one is totally not the right size so have to get another. the rear one fit well. Everything inside the trans looks nice and clean. I never imagined that i would work on a transmission in my entire life! hopefully when we put it back in, we wont have to pull it out for a looooooooooooo ng time

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2013, 07:27:45 PM »
See, told ya it was simple, lol.. :D
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Offline mrmellowgold

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2013, 12:53:38 PM »
When I get home today, i plan on securing the intermediate band in properly and adjusting it. I already let it soak and everything. It is already in the trans in fact. We put the front drum and the pump and bell housing back on with the band loose in there and are going to put it in place from the oil pan area. I put everything back the way it came out. The rear drum and whatever the hell else is back there did not come out, as I made a conscious effort not to mess with all that, just the front one. I did not see any tricks or anything standing out that made it very tricky when putting it back together, but i can not help but to worry that when we put it back in after all this work that it won't do right.
   Today I need to slap some fluid on the servos, apply the gaskets, and stick them in. Then adjust the band, put pan back on, stick the notched rod thingy back into the transmission (i am very new to this so excuse my lack of terminology). Reconnect everything that was taken off the transmission during the drop, struggle and feel anger towards the hunk of aluminum while mounting it back in, put new mount on, attach drive shaft. OOOOOhhh boy....


Please, give me any tips, hints, problems I may run into, things to remember and to account for while doing so, reminders, everything and anything! I just really want to drive my very first car! Thanks everyone

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2013, 01:47:15 PM »
Just make sure the torque converter is all the way in before you bolt the tranny up, with the tranny bolted up the converter should slide forward to the flexplate, if it's already tight up to the flexplate that means the converter is not engaged in the pump properly. Unless you get real lucky, when you put the converter in you'll feel it hit, keep pushing lightly and turn at the same time until it goes in again, when it does it's engaged in the pump.
Art
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Offline jeremysdad

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2013, 02:57:41 PM »
This is something I've always been terrified of. I won't even change the fluid on one anymore...(well...I guess this one puked all of it's fluid along Hwy 70...thank goodness there was an Autozone in range...).

A decent shop will charge you ~400 for a C-4, parts included. Crooked shop? Well...they go up from there. lol Just don't expect the same valve body installed as what you sent them, they'll take it for a 'tip'. ;)

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2013, 05:45:59 PM »
I was scared of them too until I took one apart and found out how simple they are,lol..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Offline amc49

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2013, 09:09:42 PM »
Get a service manual for the trans and follow it, if you can work on engines there is no reason why you can't ATX.

Offline jeremysdad

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2013, 01:56:46 AM »
Get a service manual for the trans and follow it, if you can work on engines there is no reason why you can't ATX.

But!!! They live on fluid!!!... I almost see your point, but I don't have a mentor local...and... it's ATX!!! lol You add one sand granule...dead . :(

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2013, 08:43:32 AM »
A sand granule in a new motor= dead too, lol, cleanliness is a key factor though.. Here's how I learned how to rebuild them, don't know if they still have them now or not but back in the early 80's B&M used to have a complete rebuild kit in a box with a shift kit, and it came with a full step by step manual with pictures on teardown and assembly along with a few tricks for improvement(think I still have it laying around someplace, lol) I admit I was nervous as heck doing the first one but after I got done I realized how simple they are to do, been doing them ever since piece a cake.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Offline amc49

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2013, 03:08:01 PM »
As he says, you got no business building engines any dirtier than ATX, they both need CLEAN at rebuild time. A couple grains of sand from fingers on back of bearing shell about to be installed and kiss that engine goodbye.

Offline jeremysdad

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2013, 02:09:28 AM »
Understood. :)

Offline mrmellowgold

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2013, 10:08:52 AM »
I've been away from the forums for a while now, but I am happy to say that after we took the transmission out and replaced the band, got seals, mounts, waiting weeks trying to find the time and parts to utilize-the Pinto is on the road!!!!!
Last night we decided to hook everything back up after the long 8 hours of putting the transmission back in. We realized that we were kinda close to having a supposed running car. So we slapped everything back together in an hour or two.

At the first turn of the key, nothing happened. at all. We pondered for almost an hour, retracing our steps, looking for something we might have missed, then finally I spotted a big wire not plugged into another. I have no idea what it was still but I plugged t in and BOOM! My very first car finally runs as it should!

Took it out for about a 20 mile drive last night, worked great. Today drove it to school, where it sits in the parking lot looking so obscure being the oldest car in a 5 mile radius.

Hoping the transmission stays the way it should, and I must say that it has been such a rewarding feeling.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2013, 10:11:35 AM »
Congrats, glad to hear it's up and running.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Offline bbobcat75

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2013, 10:19:53 AM »
CONGRATES ON THE TRANSMISSION REBUILD!!!
 
TAKE CARE AND GOOD LUCK!!!
 
ITS ALWAYS COOL HAVING THE OLDEST AND DIFFERENT CAR IN ANY PARKING LOT!!
 
1975 mercury bobcat 2.8 auto
1978 mercury bobcat wagon 2.3l - soon to have a 88 tc drive line
1975 ford pinto - drag car - 2.3l w/t5 trans - project car

Offline amc49

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Re: How do I replace the 2nd gear band in a C4 automatic
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2013, 10:19:27 AM »
Once you realize how the clutch pistons all seal up with a simple seal like the front or rear seal in a motor the rotating part of an ATX is history. After that all that matters is the bushings are tight and all thrust washers and other parts are in the correct place. The big bugaboo of ATX is the scary valve body and if you have a manual to show where valves go and simply pay attention to not mixing springs up then piece of cake rebuilding trans, especially these early ones with only one real important clearance check at the end play of the whole mess. Watch end plays close at each clutch pack too and no reason why you can't rebuild one successfully. Other than that clean is the word and no reason why you can't have one last for years, the very first one I did (Chrysler Hemi Torqueflite A727 type modded to be used by AMC) lasted for like 9 years, I pulled it down once when the rear band broke from the extra firm shift I picked with the B&M valve body. The kit modified like so was hard on that band, I replaced it and went right back to the super hard 2nd gear scratch that so freaked people out. The trans went from a 360 Hornet to a 258 six Concord (replacing an A904) and even more freaking out when THAT one would lay down hard 2nd gear rubber as well. I loved that B&M kit........... ...

I now rebuild my electronic trannies as well, last one out of Contour still going at 6 years now. Even the trans shops have fits with that one, the CD4E, and it still gives Ford fits now as well in Escapes. I have no idea why other than attention to detail, the trans is very b-tchy about having the correct parts as it has been modded so many times, first by Mazda and then later by Ford. It DOES have one major flaw but easily fixed, just no one ever does it at rebuild time, kinda stupid if you ask me..........al l the rebuilders know of the flaw but don't lift a finger to fix it when they build the trans.

Point being, if you understand the workings of motors and can routinely go into them with good result then no reason why you can't save even more doing your own ATX. Only really necessary thing is that service manual with all the clearances in it, you set them up as stated and clutch packs last forever. I should probably point out that I do them with no garage or lift at all, think about that one for a bit. The CD4E was supposed to have a special tool set at $200, I managed to creatively avoid buying that toolset by careful thinking and some very cheap cobbled up measuring tools.