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Offline ToniJ1960

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help please ignition cylinder
« on: November 26, 2012, 10:33:17 PM »
 Well it started to go to the store but wouldnt come home. The ignition cylinder just wont turn. Its the first time in over 12 years my poor old car was on a tow truck.

  Its a 1978 Pinto wagon, I had it for nearly 27 years and right now I emphasize nearly lol.


 My questions are

 1. if it wont turn can it still be replaced easily? I forgot what position it has to be in for that pin to go in. I didnt change it before because that pin wouldnt  even go in when it did still work. Can it be drilled out? Or a slide hammer break the cylinder out like on a 74?

 2. If I can get the steering wheel of and disable the wheel lock, will it run if I use a remote start switch to just be able to drive it somewhere to get it fixed? I dont know what all circuits are on the ignition switch if the car will run lights all work no lights what.

 Anyone with some imput answers etc please help thank you Pinto People I always enjoy reading the Forum and try to [ut in 2 cents worth when I can. Hoping someone will ease my anxiety a little with this.

Offline discolives78

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2012, 01:53:52 AM »
Did you try rocking the steering wheel back and forth while you're turning the key? Sometimes mine would hang and it took an effort on the switch and the wheel at the same time. The electrical part of the switch is down under the dash with a rod leading up to the tumbler itself, on the top side of the column, the electrical part can be unbolted from the column, and the 'lock block' screw at the other end of the rod under the steering wheel is the screw directly to the left of the 'key in buzzer' switch, the white plastic with a single wire on the upper right. Haynes manual says 'run' position for removal, and  that it should be 'on' when inserting it and to turn it 'off' to release the pin after inserting it. I'd suggest lubricating freely inside the tumbler socket on the column while it's apart, I use spray lithium grease on stuff like that. One more thing, the socket for the wires to plug in on the electrical part is held to the housing that mounts to the column with 4 small metal tabs that are bent over, sometimes they come unbent and the two parts separate, there's a ball bearing in there, and if it's out of place, it'll jam up the works. I've put them back together before, but if the tabs become really weak then the fix only lasts a few weeks and a new electrical portion is in order. Hope it helps, and hope you get back on the road soon!

There was a suggestion from Fred Morgan in another thread for simply bypassing it and getting on your way, it was here:



http://www.fordpinto.com/general-help/help!!-21731/

 :)


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Offline ToniJ1960

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2012, 02:53:36 AM »
 I read his post and I could probably figure out how to free the steering wheel Im sure. I dont know if I can get the car to run by starting it with a remote start switch or not though.

 And if the cy;linder should be in the run position to get that pin in, theres a problem because one, it wont turn at all. And two, even when it did and I tried to replace the cylinder a couple years ago after someone tried to steal it, the pin wouldnt go in so I just left it the way it was.

 Now I didnt think, if the switch itself might be jammed and keeping the cylinder from turning. Is that likely?

 And yes I tried turning the steering wheel jiggling it jiggling the key the tow truck driver tried for a while and gave up too. I think I just need to get the cylinder out I dont care if its in pieces and the collar is  alreadsy broke off from the theft attempt a couple of years ago. So I can see inside the cylinder I might even be able to disect it. Or I guess drill out the pin? Break it out with a slide hammer? Thats how they changed the cylinder on my 74 wagon I had once.

Offline discolives78

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2012, 03:10:21 AM »
It could be, I was just getting ready to show you a couple of pics anyway. How are your keys, are they badly worn? You can try getting some graphite lube for locks and applying it to the key, not the switch, and inserting and removing it a few times then trying to turn it. If your keys are worn and it's keyed the same for both door and ignition, then you can take your door lock cylinder out and take it to a locksmith and for $15-20 they can make you a new one. Sometimes they get so worn that they don't depress the 'teeth' inside the lock anymore. As for using a remote starter switch, I would say no in this case because the switch is not in the on position, so hooking up the remote start would only crank it, and it wouldn't fire.





Fred suggested in that other link in my last post to remove the steering wheel and then removing that lock block, I'm thinking much more that your problem is the electrical portion, it's on the top of the steering column bracker, way easier to remove the instrument cluster to work on it, but beware and be gentle if you choose that route, the white plastic 'bucket' that holds the gauges is more often than not dry-rotted. I know it's late and you're probably not going to run out there now and mess with it, but I'm checking in a few times a day lately and hopefully another might have advice for you too.



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Offline discolives78

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2012, 03:18:01 AM »
I'm thinking a slide hammer could work, but it could break something. I got lucky one time and just twisted the chrome part of the switch with a good sized pair of channel locks, the tab on the column end of the tumbler just twisted right off, but another time I tried the same thing  ::) always losing my keys, and just the chrome part broke off, and I had to go junkyarding and get another column.


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Offline discolives78

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2012, 09:58:05 PM »


It looks like the rod is hooked upward at that end and you just lift it off said hook, been a while since I was under there. Also the rod is not a part of the potmetal lock mechanism behind the tumbler inside the column, the tapered end sticking out of that 'lock block' picture last night is the part I'm referring to here, behind that taper are teeth, and that piece slides up and down the column as you turn the key, and has a hole toward the dash side for the rod to hook into. The bolt slots in this pic are the bolts holding the column to the metal dash.



This is the other end, there's a gear that stands vertical with a slot for the tumbler that engages these teeth. I can't remember now how the bracket looked with the instrument cluster out, you may not be able to get to it that way after all (sorry) the Haynes manual says to disconnect the battery, undo the column to dash bolts and lower the column for access, and again, no mention of clip, just lift straight up off rod


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Offline ToniJ1960

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2012, 12:56:04 AM »
 Is that picture of the piece with teeth in it, pointed the right end towards the switch and left side towards the steering wheel? And the teeth ride on t he gear at the back of the tumbler? I saw a picure of the tumbler in an exploded view in a haynes manual for a fairmont Im sure some parts are different though.

 And if you, or anyone, knows if one end of the rod or the other is easiest to remove (and get back on again ) to just check to see if the actual switch is bound up?

Offline discolives78

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2012, 02:26:00 AM »
The picture of the part above's orientation is 'right side of photo' toward steering wheel and 'left side of photo' toward dash, and that is the bottom side, it rides above the tumber with the teeth facing down. I would start by removing the plastic shields around the column, once they are out of the way you should be able to loosen the collar directly behind (toward the dash) the metal housing for the tumbler, at that end, I'm pretty sure you'll find a 'roll pin' attaching it. if you can get that roll pin out with a punch and hammer, then you won't have to drop the column and you will be able to tell if the lower electrical or the mechano surrounding the tumbler is your woe. Take heart, even if you do have to drop the column, it's only 4 bolts and has enough give to drop a ways, and it's a small car, so it's a lightweight part...as far as that goes. I tried to get a bigger exploded view here, but that was as good as I could get. Hopefully you can zoom your browser in.

 




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Offline ToniJ1960

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2012, 03:35:24 AM »
 Ok I can see it now thats the button on the right side that locks the steering wheel,I wasnt thinking it rode on top pf the gear.But it did look more like the left side would be the end the rod went onto. The shroud is off the column so all I have to do is figure out how to get that plastic collar off I guess. Then if it is the cylinder how to get it out if I cant even turn it. I might ry drilling the pin but it seems like a lot of metal to drill off. Maybe drill a hole through it to just weaken it then try a  slide hammer.

 I really want to thank you for taking so much time to show me all these pieces in detail. And for your patience.

Offline Srt

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2012, 09:51:09 AM »
around the area of the column that the lock cyl slides into; are there any small holes at opposite sides around the circumference?  if you loook at the diagram you see two spring clips. i'm wondering if perhaps those were depressed somehow, that the ylinder will slide out.
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Offline r4pinto

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2012, 12:31:44 PM »
If it is anything like my 77 it doesn't have spring clips but the pin that everyone else is referring to. Tonji, as long as you are careful you should be able to drill it out. If you have a way to center punch it that will help the drill bit from slipping. I know it will be hard with the pin being so small but as long as you take your time you should be ok. Once it's drilled out you can then remove the cylinder with no problem.
Matt Manter
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Offline ToniJ1960

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2012, 08:18:54 PM »
 Well I got the plastic collar out of the way and still couldnt get the rod loose. Theres some kind of metal flap or something that covers that e nd, and the roll pin or drift pin is underneath on the bottom too.It looks like the whole end of the column would have to come apart.

 Tommorrow someone is going to help me try to drill out the pin. I think we`ll start with a 1/16 split point bit, try to center punch it if we can. If that goes well then maybe a 1/8 to finish it. The pin measures just under 1/8 on my micrometer. I might need a 7/64 bit even.

 Im nearly tempted to saw that rod in two just to try and get my car started and put it back together with a piece of metal sleeve and jb weld. If it doesnt go smoothly tomorrow, I think I will. I need my car back.

Offline r4pinto

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2012, 08:38:29 PM »
Isn't the steering wheel locked as well?
Matt Manter
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Offline discolives78

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2012, 09:40:24 PM »
Ok, I've been trying to think of other things to try, before you saw thru that rod, try this, with the steering wheel off, put the key in and give this thing a few raps with the hammer, don't unleash all your fury, just tap it good while you try to turn the key. Also one more question, did the button on the bottom side of the column pop back out after you took the key out last time? Or did it stick in? Anyway, by tapping it here, you're basically 'helping' that potmetal doohickey toward the electrical part, same motion as when you turn the key onward, on the electrical part in is on and out is off.



Once again wishing you luck and fortune :)


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Offline Bipper

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2012, 09:52:46 PM »
I have run into this problem many times at FEDEX when we used Ford vans. From my experience the key tumbler just wore out from age. Has never been the ignition switch, rod or lock gear mechanism. To remove a tumbler that won't turn disconnect battery, remove steering wheel, disconnect turn signal switch at connecter under dash, remove turn switch screws and lift switch out of the way. You don't have to take it all the way out just out of the way for access to the pin. Do yourself a favor and center punch the pin, then drill it out. Then drill into the keyway of the tumbler with a 3/8 bit. You want to drill until the tumbler pins fall out. Don't drill deeper than the length of a key or you will be drilling into the washer and drive gear. If it won't come out step drill above the 3/8 size. It's been many years since I have done one of these so I don't remember what size I ended up with but with some prying and wiggling the tumbler will slide out. Good luck.
 
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Offline ToniJ1960

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2012, 11:17:01 PM »
I have run into this problem many times at FEDEX when we used Ford vans. From my experience the key tumbler just wore out from age. Has never been the ignition switch, rod or lock gear mechanism. To remove a tumbler that won't turn disconnect battery, remove steering wheel, disconnect turn signal switch at connecter under dash, remove turn switch screws and lift switch out of the way. You don't have to take it all the way out just out of the way for access to the pin. Do yourself a favor and center punch the pin, then drill it out. Then drill into the keyway of the tumbler with a 3/8 bit. You want to drill until the tumbler pins fall out. Don't drill deeper than the length of a key or you will be drilling into the washer and drive gear. If it won't come out step drill above the 3/8 size. It's been many years since I have done one of these so I don't remember what size I ended up with but with some prying and wiggling the tumbler will slide out. Good luck.
 
Bob in Socal     

 I got the steering wheel off and trying to figure out how to get my dril at that angle maybe I need a different tool.Im using a dremel, I guess I just need to round up some extension cords so I can run a good drill out there.

 My main question to you is, if I drill that retaining pin out why would I still need to drill through the cylinder with the 3.8 bit? It seems like it would come out without turning it once the pin is out. From what I read you drill through with the 3/8 to get the tumblers to all fall out then it can turn and you can press the pin in.

 So why both?

 Also I was able to get my hand back on top of the columb and feel the switch part and the wires.It doesnt feel like anything is loose there.'

 The lock button to lock the steering wheel pushes in easily, but after I took the screw out for the block it wont come out of the housing.

Offline Bipper

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2012, 12:15:23 AM »
  From what I read you drill through with the 3/8 to get the tumblers to all fall out then it can turn and you can press the pin in.

 

Yes that way will work also. But it is very difficult but not impossible to know when the tumbler is in the right position after it's chewed up. But if you think you're close and the pin won't push in you could try and pound the pin in with a punch. The reason it won't slide out with just the pin pushed in is the end of the tumbler is sort of shaped like a "T". That T goes through the drive gear washer that has a matching T shaped hole in the center. Therefore to remove or install the tumbler these T shapes have to line up. If my memory serves me I think that is in the run position. Hope that makes sense.
You might also want to see if someone has posted a video on youtube about removing a Ford ignition tumbler.
Bob in Socal
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Offline r4pinto

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2012, 12:21:01 AM »
Like Bipper I can't recall either since I replaced the ignition on my 77 in 2006 before Carlisle after I lost the keys. From what I recall once I got the pin out I was able to remove the cylinder with no problem. I can't say for certain since it was so long ago but that's what I'm thinking.
 
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1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

Offline Bipper

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2012, 01:28:44 AM »
This might be of some help. Same basic design as a pinto. The reason his tumbler came right out was he was able to turn the key to the run position just not the start position.
Bob in Socal   
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Offline ToniJ1960

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2012, 06:08:52 PM »
 I started drilling the pin. I just didnt realize I drilled half the pin and half the hole. So now Im taking a break before I destroy it. Its probably going to be more difficult to drill it outnow so I may have to try to drill it along the side of the half of pin thats there. If I damage that hole too much I wonder if I can put a sleeve in it.

 The lock block came out so I put a good washer behind it pretty thick it shouldnt bend or wear out so now my steering wheel wont look. Tempted to zip tie the push rod to the column and s aw it to get the car started more than ever. I think ill sleep on it and maybe my brain will be fresh or less stirred up tomorrow.

Offline 71pintoracer

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2012, 06:37:43 PM »
Wow you guys go about this the hard way!! I slide hammer them all the time. Get someone to hold the steering wheel from the driver side and 3-4 wacks out it comes. Make sure you have the pass door open and the window down lol! Also, you can use a pin punch and drive the steel pin up into the cylinder. DON'T drill down into the cylinder!! When that bit hits that steel pin the drill will twist and try to break your arm!
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

Offline ToniJ1960

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2012, 06:53:23 PM »
 can you break the cylinder out with a slide hammer even if you cant get the pin in?

Offline 71pintoracer

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2012, 06:58:07 PM »
Yep thats how I pull cylinders out of everything. Since you have started drilling the pin go ahead and drive it up into the cyl then wack it with the slide hammer. Should pop right out.
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2012, 07:02:46 PM »
 The pin wont go in because the cylinder wont turn looking at the new one you can see theres no way the pin can go in. Will it break off?

Offline 71pintoracer

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2012, 07:04:13 PM »
Hammer & punch. Drive it in as far as it will go then slide hammer.
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2012, 07:07:03 PM »
 That pin isnt budging what I wonder is wil it break off. Maybe if I drill along the half side of it and make i thinner it wil break off.

Offline ToniJ1960

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2012, 06:06:04 PM »
 I have got the pin drilled away but it must be some little bumps still that wont let it come out. We used a slide hammer (window down door open) and no luck. I guess I need a small grinder to get it flush. The holes a little bigger that it was  so the cylinder might wind up being a little loose in there but I dont care right now. It could probably be shimmed or something. Im just so close I can feel it bit still cant drive my car its my only vehicle too. I just dont need two cars to try to keep going though.

 So I have a small sharp flat blade I may try to plow some of the bits off or down with. And try to find out where to get some small small grinding bits for a dremel locally. Harbor freight home depot anyone know?

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2012, 08:05:10 PM »

Yes that way will work also. But it is very difficult but not impossible to know when the tumbler is in the right position after it's chewed up. But if you think you're close and the pin won't push in you could try and pound the pin in with a punch. The reason it won't slide out with just the pin pushed in is the end of the tumbler is sort of shaped like a "T". That T goes through the drive gear washer that has a matching T shaped hole in the center. Therefore to remove or install the tumbler these T shapes have to line up. If my memory serves me I think that is in the run position. Hope that makes sense.
You might also want to see if someone has posted a video on youtube about removing a Ford ignition tumbler.
Bob in Socal

 I really hope this is wrong and its not the drive end of the cylinder still keeping it from coming out now that the pin is drilled ( but maybe not still completely)


 The main reasons I think it is wrong are as follows

 1. a regular washer with a round hole would sem to work as well. Why spend extra to make a special part that isnt needed?
 2. it would probably be a little harder to put together if the washer had to be turned a certain way for them (washer and gear) to align. Again uneccesary so why.
 3. even if the cylinder turned if the washer turned you still wouldnt be able to pull the t shaped end out of washer if it had that shape opening, if the washer was able to turn also once the t end went through and into the gear. And if the washer wasnt able to turn against the gear and forced to stay in alignment with the gear, then it wouldnt matter as far as removing the cylinder because the t shape openings would be lined up no matter if the cylinder is in the off run start position.


 Does this actually make sense? If this was something to with electronic engineering I feel on steadier ground.

Offline ToniJ1960

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2012, 05:42:55 PM »
 Theres something going on in there. The pin is gone its clear and the cylinder wont come out still. It looks like there may not be a washer but a metal wall or something in the end of the housing that could have that same T sort of shape in it that means the cylinder does have to be turned. So now I have to try to drill out the tumblers and get it to turn to the run position.I can get the cylinder to move forward nearly a quarter inch and see in there a little. If I had a small saw blade that could get in there and cut that end of the lock cylinder off I could try that.

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Re: help please ignition cylinder
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2012, 05:00:09 PM »
Can't believe the slide hammer won't pull it out, the steel pin is what gives the most resistance. the end of the cylinder does go through a slotted washer, most of the time the end of the cylinder will break off, sometimes the washer breaks as well. I've pulled literally 100's out with a slide hammer. ( I work at a Ford dealer) I never drill them. In fact today I pulled one out of an '02 crown vic. 3 wacks with the slide hammer. Gone in 60 seconds!
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?