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Offline blupinto

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Gas Issue
« on: October 16, 2013, 07:21:00 PM »
I sadly now have two Pintos not able to start. They are parked in my driveway, which is slanted. The cars- Ruby RedHot and her younger wagon sister War Wagon- are parked where the fronts are on the high part of driveway. Both of them ran when I parked them- War Wagon because of a bad speedometer cable and rotten tires and Ruby just because. After a few months of sitting, War Wagon had no interest in starting. Because of her other issues I didn't sweat it. Ruby was parked for only 3 weeks when she refused to turn over. I've since done a full tune-up and replaced spark plugs, distributor cap, rotor, fuel pump, fuel filter, and lots of fuel line. She has 3/4 of a tank of gas. The problem is the gas is not getting to the filter- much less the carburetor. The instruction sheet for the pump says nothing about priming it. I'm thinking that, with the engine compartment elevated higher than the rear end, the gas drained back into the tank and there's no vacuum to bring gas up to the carb. Is this unusual, or is it just me?  :P
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Offline jeremysdad

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2013, 07:39:10 PM »
I feel for you, and hope it's not a mountain. Turn them around.

Somebody's going to say 'Just prime the carb!!!', but I've been doing that since I was 7 (so, for 25 years), and one of my high-school classmates killed himself after a horrible accident resulting from the practice, so...

Turn them to point nose down-hill. :)

Sorry that I was the first to respond. Carry on...

(If you must prime a carb...as little gas as possible...and it really works best as a one man show. I.e., TBSP or two down the throat, SET CAN DOWN, attempt to start.) It has to be a one man show, if you're going to try it. Any other way can be fatal. Gas man works the key. Period. I don't know what became of the man that turned that key...so I've turned it myself ever since.

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Offline blupinto

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2013, 07:47:05 PM »
Hi Jeremysdad!  ;D

Yeah, I'm not real keen on doing the gas-into-carb thing, either. I'm too scared of fires! lol  Both cars almost start when I use starting fluid, but once that's gone... it's back to the old drawing board. I bought Ruby a see-through glass fuel filter to see if her gas is bad. Sadly, I wouldn't know... the filter is bone-dry. This weekend I will put the girls rear-ends up in the driveway... the hard part will be pushing them up! I hate to ask my neighbors to help. It's a little (Pinto-length) driveway, but it's steep and has rough asphalt.
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Offline TIGGER

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2013, 07:51:03 PM »
So far I have yet to have to prime a mechanical fuel pump.  It usually takes a few cranks but I have never had a problem getting fuel to the carb on any of the cars I have replaced the fuel pump on.  If it is starting on starter fluid, I would take off the new fuel pump and bench test it.  It could be defective right out of the box?  Second, I would check that the nothing happened to the little cam that drives the pump. Also check your oil to make sure it is not pumping fuel into your crankcase.  I have seen that before as well. 
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Offline blupinto

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2013, 08:01:29 PM »
I did check the oil (I think it was suggested in one of the repair manuals or another Pinto Peep) and there's no smell of gas and no oil discoloration (I'm not sure if it discolors it like water or antifreeze does). I replaced War Wagon's pump maybe 3 months ago and had the same results as I'm having with Ruby now. That was the reason I had the pumps replaced- because gas wasn't getting to the carburetor.

What little cam?  (my naivete is showing here...)
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Offline jeremysdad

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2013, 08:09:21 PM »
Rotten fuel lines (rubber). Where are you again? Aren't you down near Fred, in the southwest? Give a mechanical fuel pump one pin-hole, and it won't draw anything. :)

Mine are good, but I replaced them anyway...but there are short sections of rubber fuel line between the tank and the steel lines (where they come out of the frame, right by the fuel tank).

Also, ether is reaaaallllyyyy y hard on a motor. Like really bad. Like trying to idle on NO2 bad. Melted pistons and stuff. :) lol

Ether + timing off= new rebuild!!! I'll pour gas + key, any day. But that's another skill, cause too much gas = hydro-lock = rebuild.

Verify spark yet (can I call you Chikka)? :)

Offline jeremysdad

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2013, 08:11:22 PM »
Status of your 'fuel pick-up strainers', as they call them now? I.e., the strainers that live at the end of your fuel inlet in the gas tank?

That's all I got.

Offline blupinto

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2013, 11:48:11 PM »
Good question... I haven't pulled the tank on either of these girls yet... and not really keen on that yet, as both tanks are mostly full. Yes, I have spark (on both cars).  :)
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Offline Jerry merrill

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2013, 12:20:10 AM »
Are you sure the fuel lines on the pump are not on backwards? If that is ok try priming the carb with a little gas but always put the air cleaner back on before trying to start. Check for gas coming out of the accelerator pump squirter to see if that is working. Good luck!

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2013, 07:52:22 AM »
Rotten fuel lines (rubber)]/b]. Where are you again? Aren't you down near Fred, in the southwest? Give a mechanical fuel pump one pin-hole, and it won't draw anything. :)
Don't really matter where you're at, if you drain the lines they're done they will dry out and crack(even quicker in heat), they'll stay alive as long as there is gas in them same for the pump. My neighbor had a drag car and he wouldn't use solid line from front to back(never figured that out)only braided line, he would drain the system at the end of the season and park the car, when the season started up he'd fill the system and he'd have a lawn sprinkling system under the car, lol, it was ok with me because I used to sell AN stuff and he was always good for 30ft of hose every season, lol..

PS: If you drain the system you can extend the life of fuel lines with a little Marvel in the gas.
Art
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Offline Pintosopher

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2013, 08:20:13 PM »
Replace the Old Hoses , Save yourself  from a Car B Que . Use Gates Barricade hose , SAE J30 R14 for Ethanol RFG fuels  (Carbureted version) Save your car, don't fret the time and expense of pulling the tanks. A fuel fire is forever ...  :-[
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Offline amc49

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2013, 08:07:59 AM »
The fuel pump cam I believe is actually part of the intermediate shaft on these, it cannot come loose, or distributor would not turn.

Fuel pump if good will prime carb unless filter or something else stopping up fuel line. Ethanol plays havoc with fuel line now unless you have ethanol tolerant line. The Gates hose mentioned. You can blow back through fuel tank with compressed air and listen for it bubbling to know if pickup filter is clogged. Have cap off when you do it. Ethanol also very bad about sticking float shut from the residual sugar in it after car or bike sits for more than a week. I've had to take compressed air to fuel inlets before to just pop needle free of seat. Either that or take carb apart to merely touch needle to have it come loose. A pain in the -ss and plenty of fun on inline four bikes.

Rather than prime engine through butterflies I simply fill carb up through the vent area on 5200s. Pump throttle 2-3 times till pumpshot comes out and go. I ALWAYS use a big fuel filter in the line coming up to carb and the small internal carb filter gets tossed almost immediately, they clog super easy. I do not use the 1/8" pipe thread inlet filter either, always a simple hose fitting there and bigger filter down lower. Clear so I can see if fuel in it.

I feel same way as jeremysdad about priming engine with fuel, one guy only, watched a friend get blown backwards once when doing it, he and girlfriend got tangled up in communications, she turned key at wrong time. BOOM. I've done it a hundred times safely yet I back up when others do it, you just can never tell what someone is going to do there......... ..........seen   hair on fire more than once.

I use ether all the time but one concrete hard rule, if it does not light up at all after a solid 2 second shot then STOP RIGHT THERE and find out what is wrong with car. I came up once just as a mech friend was finishing blowing up 6 out of 8 connecting rods in a Pontiac V-8, he kept squirting more and more ether in as car kept trying to barely start, it bit him bad. Block had so many holes in it it was not funny. As I said 6 rods spit in half. Awesome. Turned out he had done a cam change and forgotten to tighten fuel pump lobe to cam, it halfheartedly spun every once in a while to just barely pump a small amount of fuel. Another mech who knew better kept loading up ether in a 289 Ford that was mistimed to not run and before all over, GET THIS!, pulled #1 plug and lit a MATCH to look in cylinder. It went off and the resultant flamethrower jet hit him in face and head, caught them on fire. Same friend who blew up the Pontiac worked for him at the time and quickly threw a winter coat over him to extinguish it, elsewise guy might have died. The guy was a premiere high dollar sprint and dirt car engine builder in Dallas, go figure........ ............

Cars are fun guys but they can kill you in a minute. Far better to think about things for a second rather than just doing them.

Offline Wittsend

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2013, 10:35:19 AM »
I agree with AMC49.  While trying to dump fuel down a cranking engine has its dangers, filling a cold, stationary carburetor is no more dangerous than filling a lawn mower.  I have a number of cars that sit for long periods. The float bowls run dry (fast in the So.Cal. summer). Cranking doesn't help much even with the tank higher (I'm a guy and thus always back in my sloped driveway).

  I just use a small funnel attached to an 8" piece of gas line. I remove the fuel pump to carburetor line, connect the hose/funnel and slowly pour gas from a small cup.  You may need a different connector at the carburetor depending on the type.  It might be helpful (if possible) to also pour gas back toward the fuel pump too.

While there is some cost involved going to an electrical fuel pump is helpful to solve this problem.  Having done the 2.3 turbo swap my Pinto can sit for months and still start.  Key on/Key off a couple of time pressurizes the fuel rail and starting is almost immediate.

Tom




Offline blupinto

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2013, 10:19:34 PM »
Yeah... definitely not brave enough to put gas in carb.  :o

It's just funny that it's TWO cars doing this just for sitting for a little while. If my experiment fails this weekend I will do the air compressor thing. The thing with Ruby is, she's always had fresh gas since I bought her in March of 2010. Lately she's been getting harder and harder to start, hence why I thought she needed a new fuel pump. Cold mornings were the worst, but warm afternoons  and when her engine were still warm from driving she would start with little trouble.

I didn't know about the bad things ether can do. Thank you for the heads-up, amc49. Thank you all for your suggestions. I am determined to get to the bottom of this.
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Offline amc49

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2013, 02:05:04 AM »
I call it the two second rule, if car does not light off with a two second shot and at least run for a second, then it has something wrong with it that starting fluid will only make worse. Once you have that two second shot in there and it is not used then a second one on top of it is just begging for trouble. If the car is viable to run it WILL start up, I've even started like engines with no carbs on them at all, only an intake port to squirt into.

Offline blupinto

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2013, 10:42:01 PM »
Well... I got Ruby turned around so that her front end is pointed down in the driveway (and broke Moxie BluBelle's grille in the process) and today, after pumping the accelerator pedal I found that, while there was no gas in the filter... there was gas in the line between the filter and the pump. I took a wee bit of gas I have in a can... poured some in the filter... poured some down the line I pulled from the pump side of the filter... reattached the line... pumped the accelerator a few times (and felt a difference in the pedal... turned the key... and she reluctantly started!!! YAY!!! She runs awfully rough, so I'll be fiddling with the carb maybe tomorrow. Thank you all for your help and encouragement! Now I gotta figure out how I'm gonna swing the wagon around like that...

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Offline amc49

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2013, 06:49:53 PM »
If tank is pretty much full then swinging car around does nothing. The fuel pump if working correctly will easily pull fuel uphill. If pump has back drained then dry check valves can stick from ethanol residual sugar if running 10%. Meaning you need to wet them with fuel again to loosen or blow slight air pressure FORWARD through pump to bump them loose, or pump will not work at max output or even not pump fuel at all. Consider filter too, any water carried in the ethanol then becomes a slimy plug that reduces the passage of fuel. Pinto tanks being steel do not help either, the steel converts to extremely fine rust that clogs/sticks everything up. The perfect binder for the slime that comes from water and fuel mixing.

Letting old school carbed cars sit for long periods is the worst thing you can do with ethanol laced fuel in them, it wracks havoc on the carb and any rubber parts there. Wait till you start seeing the corrosion that comes with it. BTDT.

Offline blupinto

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2013, 09:13:11 PM »
Well... I don't know what to tell you... I drove her this evening, and she runs fine. I didn't get gas to carb the one way, but mostly did when she was switched around.
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Offline amc49

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2013, 03:08:05 PM »
'check valves can stick from ethanol residual sugar if running 10%. Meaning you need to wet them with fuel again to loosen........ .'

Welcome to the party pal........... ....seen it more than once. If carb, take it apart and float will be stuck shut, a slight touch of finger to it makes needle come unstuck, same can happen inside fuel pump with the check valves. Why I made an air pressure procedure to stop repeatedly disassembling carbs......... .........the gaskets were complaining.




Offline ToniJ1960

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2013, 04:47:24 PM »
 No matter what I do I cant convince myself it has anything to do with turning the car around. The fuel pump seems like its always higher than the tank or about even to it. I would think 3/4 tank of gas would be enough to push gas out of the end of a hoe or line even if you held it above the fuel pump level.

 When y ou changed the fuel pump did you see gas coming out of the hose that goes to the tank? Was the car pointed downhill when you changed it?

 If the needle in  the carb got stuck would gas still get pumped enough to get to the filter?

 This ones really interesting.

Offline gaeliccouple

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2013, 08:16:51 PM »
I think you have something blocking the gas flow in the fuel tank where it meets the fuel line. All it takes is one dead grasshopper to get into your tank and get sucked down at the fuel exit point and you get no gas. The fix is easy, remove gas cap then remove gas hose behind the fuel pump then place air hose on fuel line and blow it through. It will remove any obstruction. You should then see gas flowing out. You can try pumping out the gas tank to remove the offending debris but be careful of fire! 

Offline ToniJ1960

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2013, 07:31:12 PM »
 I had a 79 wagon that I had a rebuilt motor put in. It would run a few miles and quit the guy even put a different carb on it. It still did it. I changed the ignition module the fuel pump, finally tried blowing out the fuel line with a bicycle tire pump. I heard bubbles come out of the gas cap area and it ran ok for a few days and right back to dying every few miles.After it died a few minutes later it would start. It turned out to be a dirty sock in the tank (I should say fuel filter sock).

 Wonder if something like that could keep gas from feeding under gravity just enough to have caused the uphill downhill affect.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2013, 09:48:33 PM »
Yes it could.
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Offline ToniJ1960

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2013, 11:24:16 PM »
 Just a warning of things to come maybe its time to change that sock filter.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2013, 11:28:12 PM »
Wouldn't hurt to look at it regardless.
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Offline amc49

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2013, 08:58:56 PM »
ESPECIALLY if they run 10% ethanol around you. The steel tank will slowly rust to fill the sock up with rust mud. Why Detroit was forced to go to plastic fuel tanks.

There is NO gravity feeding of fuel, the fuel has to pull up out of tank and up at pump to engine as well. The pump MUST seal at both inlet and outlet check valves inside it, if doing so it will easily pump up a distance of several feet. Don't remember if these do it or not but if a separate smaller 3rd line output coming off fuel pump that turns around to go back to tank then block that smaller outlet off, it will increase your output to engine. a bypass loop to bring fresh fuel, it stops vapor lock.

Offline ToniJ1960

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2013, 04:45:48 PM »
 Well wouldnt you know now my Pinto wont start after sitting two months. No gas coming out of the hose to the filter when I crank it so I guess its the fuel pump or the lines or the sock?

 Maybe I`ll try putting some gas in the hose like Blue did and see if it works. How much did you put in?

Offline amc49

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Re: Gas Issue
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2013, 07:58:55 AM »
I can add one thing, if fuel pump is a 3 port one that sends a smaller line right back to the tank then block off that smaller output and line, it is a bypass and only for possible vapor lock issues that usually don't happen unless in the desert. Blocking it off increases the amount and pressure of fuel to motor. We used to do it all the time at the garage back in the day........... ...and I still do it now to every 3 port pump I run across, GM or Ford.