PINTO CAR CLUB of AMERICA
Welcome to FordPinto.com, The home of the PCCA => General Help- Ask the Experts... => Topic started by: From_Jonah on December 14, 2013, 07:17:10 PM
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So I just rebuilt the 2.3 in the wagon. Everything is torqued right, as far as I can tell, the timing is right on the cam, crank and aux. The distributor rotor is in the right place. It's firing. And I can't get the thing to start. I can't even get it to try. It'll turn over and I've poured some gas in the carb but it just won't start.
Anyone have any ideas on something I could be missing or something I'm getting wrong?
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Did you pull a plug wire and check to see if you have spark??..
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Spark plug wiring correct ? Have you tested the duraspark module etc....Are you sure the crank is timed correctly . Have you removed the spark plug number 1 and used a dowel to check to see if the crank is really at top dead center. And finally is the cam on number 1 have a V up or is it down. The V should be up on number one....
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I think there is a specific way to set the lifters up on these motors. Can't recall what it is cause mine is solid lifter, but think if it isn't done valves will not fully close= no compression.
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I do have spark. I had a little confusion and still do about my distributor though. According to my Chiltons manual, I have the 74 model distributor in my car but my car is an 80. I had the plug wires plugged in like a 74, so this morning I changed it to like the 80 model and it's trying to start but only for just a second. And when it does it shoots huge flames out the tailpipe.
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Also, what do you mean about the V on the cam being up?
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I tried retarding the timing a bit and now it's backfiring a lot.
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by "V" on the cam he means the V-shape formed by the two cam lobes for cylinder #1. The V-shape should be right side up when crank is at TDC. If the V is upside down, your cam timing is 180 degrees off
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Something is definitely out of time, I would just start over and make sure everything is right and save a lot of guess work.
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'74 is a point distributor, and asking for start up issues there. The points have to be set correct gap or no coil dwell and your exact issue. If you have '79 or 80 distributor and the box for it miles ahead using it. All those years distributor position and plug wiring the same.
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'I think there is a specific way to set the lifters up on these motors. Can't recall what it is cause mine is solid lifter, but think if it isn't done valves will not fully close= no compression.
Correct, the check gets done if you ground valves or moved them around. Commonly undone in the old days and gave guys with new motors pure fits.
Used to be a number Ford gave to check valve clearance on 2.3 with hydraulic lifters, collapse lifter and then fit valve in hole with a follower and that clearance then gets measured between base of cam lobe and follower. It guarantees the working assembly is in the middle of the hydraulic travel of lifter for very long life. If valve now ends up being too long after the machine work the lifter runs out of internal adjustment travel while shrinking in height and holds valve open. Needless to say engine not gonna run very well if at all like that. I heard of guys doing that all through the '70s, then they invariably blamed the engine for being a crap motor and where a lot of anti-2.3 BS came from back then. People with no sense.
Here we go, I found the number, called 'collapsed lifter gap' in '80 Ford service manual and on 2.3 with hydro lifters, .040"-.050". The clearance puts the lifter seat right about in the middle of its' travel or I'm thinking around .080" total travel there. It guarantees the valves will be closed at proper time.
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Distributor is 180* out. Firing order is the same for all 2.3 engines, so I'm not sure what you mean by changing the wire position to an '80 model vs. a '74.
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easiest way to time these motors is set the crank to TDC and then use the string method http://www.turbotbird.com/techinfo/CamTiming/Cam%20Timing%20Belt%20Replacement%20and%20Set%20Up.htm
Once your sure the belts on perfect then drop your dizzy in to the correct spot and install your wires and you should be GTG.
If it doesn't start after that get a compression tester and see if you have a valve open or not opening. But it sounds like yah got the timing off sometimes setting the timing can be a pain if using the stock markings.
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First off, thanks for all the help everyone! I think I'm moving in the right direction anyway.
So here's the two 2300 diagrams I have in my Chiltons book. The tabs on my distributor are like the one that it shows for 1974, but my car is an 80 model.
(http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg487/jvonmuncher/unnamed1_zps53a7ea1c.jpg) (http://s1240.photobucket.com/user/jvonmuncher/media/unnamed1_zps53a7ea1c.jpg.html)
(http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg487/jvonmuncher/unnamed_zpsc7582877.jpg) (http://s1240.photobucket.com/user/jvonmuncher/media/unnamed_zpsc7582877.jpg.html)
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Doesn't matter where distributor ends up at as long as you have swing both ways to change timing and all parts like cap screws easy to get to. Rotor needs to be pointed at #1 and with crank on TDC but at the CORRECT TDC, there are two. One is at overlap and the other is at top of compression stroke, you need the second one or distributor 180 out like mentioned before.
You can use any post you want for #1 as long as the ones following are in the correct firing order.
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Doesn't matter where distributor ends up at as long as you have swing both ways to change timing and all parts like cap screws easy to get to. Rotor needs to be pointed at #1 and with crank on TDC but at the CORRECT TDC, there are two. One is at overlap and the other is at top of compression stroke, you need the second one or distributor 180 out like mentioned before.
You can use any post you want for #1 as long as the ones following are in the correct firing order.
What he said!..
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So pointed at #1 as in the number one post on the distributor cap correct?
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Yes, which ever post the the #1 plug wire is.
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Okay awesome that clears up a lo. The book was confusing me.
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This might have been covered, but I failed to see it... dids you check the starter solenoid? On a '74 it's mounted on the firewall. I sold my beloved green '73 wagon to a dear friend (Pinto Barn) and between he and Pinto Wizard (Doctor) Joey, they figured out why she refused to start. The solenoid was dead. :)
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'It'll turn over.......... ....'
Says the solenoid is working.
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She's alive! After a few timing adjustments and one blown fuel line, she's running good! Can't wait to take it for a test drive this weekend.
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FANTASTIC!!!
Dwayne :)
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Congrats, glad to hear you got it running..
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Luck.......... ...make that first oil change pretty quick......... ........
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Okay. How quickly do I need to change it? And will it be okay to drive it to the exhaust shop with just a long tube header?
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On a fresh motor(with flat tappet cam)after the 20-30 minute break in I dump all the oil and cut open the filter, that tells if everything went well or not, if it's clean I then put a fresh batch of oil in with a new filter(Wix), then take it out and wring it's neck for about an hour, then I cut the filter open again and check it, if it's nice and clean I figure I have a good motor, put a new filter and add a quart and I'm good to go. Worked for me for 30+ years,lol.. Yes you can run it with an open header, just take it easy in case you're a tad lean.
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Okay awesome. DO you open it with a saws all or what? And what do you mean wring its neck?
Thanks all of you for the help by the way!
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I use a filter cutter you don't want t put garbage in the filter, you can use a hacksaw right at the lip just be careful. I mean run the crap out of it, lol..
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Okay awesome. Well, I've been driving it. It seems to be lacking a little power. And it idles way too high. I really need to replace the carburetor.
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You don't replace a carb for high idle, that just indicates not smart enough to adjust it out or fix it. No insult intended of course. Several ways of getting that back down.......... .vacuum leak is an obvious one. You should be able to choke carb out to completely kill engine by dropping idle set screw more and more, not having it means something MAYBE wrong with carb but 95% of them are fixable. You have to play the idle mixture screws and idle speed screw against each other.
Hoping you still have original carb on it. Only way they can high idle to not be fixed is throttle shaft leaks from wear and even that can usually be fixed. Of course corrosion from ethanol can cause issues now.
At our shop back in the old days we were known for never buying new carb to fix and customers loved not getting plugged with the huge bills of doing so. In our view the original carb was the one best metered to your motor if stock, any over the counter ones are condensed from the 200-300 different ones used to maybe 50 (don't be surprised if only 25 now!) part numbers overall and you get shortchanged there for sure. All the while they are telling you how much better the new carb will perform. Ain't no way. Some are close but others are terribly far off, and why we quit pushing new ones back in the day. It got much worse as emissions carbs got so customized to each vehicle and motor. I saw so-called 'absolutely correct carb by number and application' not run at all and then rebuild old one and runs perfect more than once.
Although I've done it no need to cut filter either, the first OC will show you, look at the oil in strong light and you can generally see the 'glitter' in there to make the oil look like liquid gold. Let the oil settle and then pout it off to see what remains. Depending on engine if race or stock, oil changed after 30 minutes running or up to 250 miles. Make the next one after that a little sooner than your norm then go to the norm.
If not driving 20 miles you can drive with open header but any issues past that will be with the police.
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Oh okay. I guess having it off and putting it back on could still cause problems. As far as I know the carb is original. I'll try to check for vacuum problems in a little bit. I went through the PCV system yesterday and got it all straightened out.
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What makes you think you need to replace the carb??, it was working good before the re build, right?, might want to go back re check everything, cam/ignition timing, vacuum leak and what ever else you have, lack of power and high idle don't mean the carb is bad, probably just need some tuning.
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I thought I had needed one before because it would always choke out when I cut it off. Come to think of it though, it never does that now. But I'm trying to work through the little kinks here and there. I got it a little better adjusting the ignition timing. If I turn the throttle adjust screw out though, nothing changes. However, if I pull up on the throttle, it idles at a reasonable speed until I let go. What is and ideal idle speed? Right now it idles close to 1500 rpm. Then again, I may think it's idling too fast because I'm not used to hearing it without exhaust.
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'it would always choke out when I cut it off.'
Never heard a description like that in 40 years, what are you trying to say there? ALL motors 'choke out' when you turn them off.
'If I turn the throttle adjust screw out though, nothing changes.'
Not rocket science, bend over and see if the screw is out in space and not touching linkage, obvious that will do nothing but you must make the effort to look. Car won't fix itself.
'if I pull up on the throttle, it idles at a reasonable speed until I let go.'
That has all the earmarks of a not strong enough throttle return spring and a very dangerous condition, don't fix it later, fix it NOW.
You should be able to lower speed with screw to where engine dies or carb not right. Linkage, cable issue, dragging may all be a problem. You always treat not returning to 100% dead idle as a safety issue, enough people have been killed by it in one way or another.
MTX or ATX? Idle should be around 700-900. Lower is better if smooth.
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What he said!!.. Mine idles at 1300 on the fast idle and 600 after it heats up, seems to work ok that way..
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I mean choke out as in it would sit there and try to keep running but coughs basically and finally die. It doesn't Do that since I rebuilt the motor though. And okay. I'll check the spring when I get home. And also, it never idle down. It just stays at around 1500 even when it's warm.
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It tries to keep running because of the high idle, check your linkage maybe it's not coming all the way back, also check your timing a lot of advance will increase idle speed.
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As he says. You mean 'dieseling' or 'afterrunning', often an indicator the throttle at idle is too far open and you describe that in other ways. You need to do what it takes to get the throttle back on true zero, it is sticking or something holding it slightly open and the cause of your issues.
Poor gas leads to that as well, and why in the mid '70s all these cars started getting the electrical solenoids on the idle. The normal throttle setting to get even 600 was enough to cause afterrun and the solenoid drops lower than normal idle to truly close the throttle and stop it. Why there are TWO settings when you have a solenoid, idle and all the way off. You check them both. Of course does not matter if enough friction in cable or linkage to override the throttle spring to let throttle stick. Sounds like you are there, the statement about being able to force linkage to zero and then speed lowers says so.
Look enough times and you will even see the engine diesel to crank back up and RUN BACKWARDS, seen it plenty of times, the crank is turning the wrong direction..... .......
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have you adjusted the choke on this ? that could be one of your issues
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As could a bad decel valve if you have one on there and it failed in the necessary way to make high idle.
The being able to lower speed by simply pulling back on linkage says issue there though. Make sure the pressfit where linkage sideplate joins the throttle shaft end is tight, if loose you can often peen the area with a slightly rounded small tip punch to tighten it back up.
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I like how you guys scream at him for wanting to change out his carburetor, then tell him 15 different parts in the carburetor that should be replaced lol. Not all people like rebuilding carburetor sometimes piece of mind is worth the extra money. I for one am a cheap bastard lol.
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You misconstrue, go back and read again.. No one said to change all the parts, only which ones could possibly be an issue.......if one uses brain and checks parts for good/bad first instead of just throwing new parts at it then often maybe buy one part only. I've done it so many times I cannot count.
I sold and installed many rebuilt carbs and I reiterate this simple fact. No way will you ever get a new rebuilt carb that matches your engine better than the factory one that was on it to begin with. Absolutely no way. It was even like that to a certain extent back in the '70s when there were so many more carbs available to pick from then and much much worse now with reduced inventory. Some people back then as well simply did not understand that and insisted on the new carb anyway. Many came back complaining later of how car did not run quite as well with new carb or get as good gas mileage. Take the old one and rebuild it and back on car and better almost all the time. People just have it ingrained in their DNA that new is better and absolutely not necessarily true at all.
I am so much cheaper than you can imagine. I generally often rebuild carbs using no tune up or parts kits at all (maybe making one main body and/or throttle body gasket myself) and they almost 100% always run perfectly afterwards. Piece of mind by buying new carb is for those who do not understand them, I've never replaced one on my personal vehicles in my entire life and often tear them down to fix one exact part since I know pretty much what's wrong with it before doing so. Often I can repair and reuse the same part.......... ....
Same thing with modern PCM controlled cars, I fix all my own issues and extremely rare to not get it right the first time. I've never paid to have any car of mine fixed by someone else over a period of some 40 years+ now. THAT'S cheap......... ...
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I've never paid to have any car of mine fixed by someone else over a period of some 40 years+ now. THAT'S cheap......... ...
Well, I always figured I was perfectly capable of destroying my own chit and not having to pay someone else to do it for me, LOL.. ;D ;D
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I know they stopped using decel valves after a certain year, mines a 78 and it never had one. I forgot what year they stopped in its in my chiltons though.
One thing I do, if my carb is under suspicion, is turn in the mixture screw far enough to see if it will slow down and kill the motor.
After I had my motor rebuilt in 1988, I had a prolem I think maybe it was too fast idle. When I found I couldnt affect the motor with the mixture screw I called the guy who rebuilt it, and he said` too much gas getting through the top half`. I had no idea what he meant back then. But I found out the power valve diaphragm had ruptured or tore, and the vacuum signal wasnt holding the power valve up so it was providing enrichment at all times rather than just under load )low vacuum). After I replaced it the engine idled a lot better and of course it got better mileage. Maybe wasnt quite as fast.
But thats an easy test, turn in the mixture screw to see if it will idle down and cut out. Later use a vacuum gauge to get the mixture close.
There was already some long debate here in another thread on the decel valve thing. It gets confusing.
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Best thing to do is dump decel valve if you can in your state. Many inspect guys don't know enough to look for them as well.
'too much gas getting through the top half'.............. ............LO L, believe me your carb guy had no idea of what he was talking about as well.......... .............. .............. ....
As tonij says, you always look for screwing mixture screw too far in or out too far as indicator the carb needs cleaning. You must get some effect there. Screwing out will be less and hard to tell but needs to be some change there. Screwing in should definitely kill motor or try to but later emission engines will have less effect either way since the idle flows have been reduced for emission reasons. If you can screw a screw in or out fully and nothing changes the carb is dirty and needs cleaning.