PINTO CAR CLUB of AMERICA
Welcome to FordPinto.com, The home of the PCCA => General Help- Ask the Experts... => Topic started by: kerryann on April 17, 2014, 07:31:40 PM
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hi, we have a 1980 pinto, 2.3, automatic. 42k original miles. i did the holley 350 swap and also the ranger header. we have the aluminum ford carb spacer under the carb and we also used the racer walsh power valve restrictors. i read that good baseline jetting is 56-58, we went with 57 since i didnt have any 56s. started with a 5.5 power valve as that was what i read to have the most success with this combo. we have a flat spot off of idle through the mid range. most noticeable when you ease into the throttle vs flat footing it from a stop, once its on the main circuit it recovers and runs smooth. the plugs are clean with slight white residue indicating we are pretty lean. i tried many different pump cams and now have the orange in position 2 which gives quite a bit of pump shot and long duration. went with a 25 squirter with the extensions to try and lengthen pump shot as well. have idle mix screws set to 1 1/4 turn out. i played with the accelerator pump timing and air gap on the lever, it helped initially but cant cure it. we went to a 6.5 power valve to no avail and now today went to a 7.5. no change. ive attached a vacuum gauge, we have 15" in drive with brake on with motor hot. this would indicate the 7.5 is right on the money. driving around with the gauge i notice the flat spot occurs at part throttle once vacuum drops just about to zero, the car seems to flatten out and then recover. it is driveable but it bothers me that its not right. im worried that the racer walsh restrictors are cutting the mid range fuel flow too much, i dont want to drill them and be stuck if it wasnt the right thing to do. they will be fairly difficult to get back out as well. when installing i drilled the metering block, cleaned out burrs, and blew out chips with air. we then pressed the inserts all the way in until they stopped. hoping that was the right thing to do. if anyone can help please let me know.
also vacuum advance is on full manifold vacuum, both catalytic converters are removed, smog pump is removed, pcv is hooked to port on the spacer. valve cover has only a breather. the kick down works as i should as well. the only thing i have not done is put a timing light on it. i have no reason to believe the timing is off as the car ran fine in stock configuration with the weber but it is worth checking. ive attached some pictures of one of the plugs for reference.
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another picture
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That insulator looks cracked...have you tried a heat range colder?
Thanks for all the good info! Someone better versed in the 2.3 will be along shortly.
Welcome aboard! :)
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What intake used there?
Don't mess with the restrictors, if it occurs at low amounts of throttle then you are nowhere near the power valve open. If you can get it to hiccup while sitting in drive then have someone do it while watching the exhaust pipe for any possible puff of black smoke. If concerned about PV opening then plug the hole with commonly available plug and then test for the flaw again, but DON"T PUSH THE ENGINE HARD, you can damage it. It will drive at light load and low throttle though so you can test more. If plugged at least you know it's not PV. You can disable the accel pump as well and SLOWLY ramp rpm up to see if it does it. Which accel pump check valve in the fuel bowl under pump cover, the ball check or a silicone disk type? Has to do with how fast the accel pump activates.
You need to verify the timing, timing slow will make it flat spot. The plugs often cannot be read for a while until they color up, it doesn't happen instantly. Look up very high inside, they begin to color up high where the porcelain meets the steel first. You really need to know idle timing and total full all-out as well. The vacuum advance is closely hooked to that depending on which unit you have, it may or may not need to be manifold vacuum. If less vac adv, you use more initial timing lead if more vac adv you need less lead, the two are hooked together and have to add up to make sense on the total, why you need numbers of all of it. If you don't have enough timing you could easily be working on a carb with nothing wrong with it.
Leaving carb where it is idle setscrew wise, pull the carb and look underneath to see how far up on the slots the throttle plates are, you are only supposed to be either just barely exposing the bottom of the slot or maybe .020" or so, if higher you are too rich then it goes super lean when you run out of transfer slot, think of it as mini-accelerator pump until both the shooter gets working. You don't have the mixture screws very far open which leads to believing possibly too far up in the slot, a common mistake. The mixture screws are not set by turn amount, rather by vacuum, one may end up different from the other but if too far one circuit is clogged.
If truly right off idle most likely the transfer slots are too exposed. Drop the idle speed back down too low to get the slots right (while carb is off) and just test to see if the flat disappears, you can bring up idle speed in other ways later.
You can adjust pump cam to have a big space and then none at all and take careful note of what changes. Or bigger shooter vs. smaller and the same. The vacuum gauge WILL drop when the motor dies, normal, an effect not the cause.
If the exhaust manifold has an O2 port you can put an O2 in there to tell if rich/lean by using an A/F ratio gauge.
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it is the stock 1980 intake, not sure exactly which one it is.
i havent tried any different plugs yet. it could probably stand a heat range colder
i welded up the factory ports on the header so cant do air/fuel unless i added a bung, didnt think id have to be that precise going by rough suggested guidelines for this swap that i read on this forum.
ive never had any luck with the power valve blocker on street cars, only on circle track stuff, i see what youre saying though. i will try setting idle screws with the vacuum gauge. i did it starting at 1 1/2 (factory recomendation) and listened for increase in rpm, seemed to like around 1 1/4, i'll verify with the gauge this time. would you ever this small of an engine like more than the 1 1/2 turns out?
i always tend to set idle speed lower than you probably should, like the lope sound on a v8, im new to the 4 cyl world but always thought they liked a little more idle speed to stop the shake and vibration and make it a little easier on them off idle getting going. this assumption could be wrong. we have no tach in the car but i could probably borrow a tach dwell.
accelerator pump shot timing has had an effect on the issue, i suppose i should focus there, havent tried any bigger squirters yet. tried a bunch of cams in both positions. a friend thought maybe going to a 50cc pump might help. ive tried the holley suggested .015" gap, no gap, 1/16" gap, has been best with slight gap right around the suggested .015"
the plugs were in the car when we bought it. i was planning on replacing them once i got the carb right but i suppose i may need to get a set now to get an accurate reading. i will check timing as well. not sure what to set these motors to. im used to setting total ith the chevy small blocks at 34-36. i tried ported vacuum as well as manifold vacuum. seemed better at manifold. ive had it explained to me before that manifold vacuum is most beneficial to a street driven motor to have the advance at idle to keep temps down, while ported vacuum was an early emissions strategy to keep exhaust temps upand nothing more than that. with that being said, what is acceptable initial timing if i run manifold vacuum and what is the number im shooting for total?
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thinking about it further i think the the transfer slots being open too much may be an issue here. im going to check that first.
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Good deal.
The power valve plug is ONLY FOR TESTING, I NEVER advocate leaving them out FYI. A major mistake, leaving it out severely curtails your tuning options and always compromises the carb setup. You plug only to do low speed easy driving to determine your idle, off-idle and cruise setups.
I personally never use any gap in pump cam, I want it on as instantly as I can get it, regardless of what the carb or the car. You will always have a spot in there where suddenly opening the throttle will drop vacuum unless very slowly doing it, the lag in pump shot just adds to any potential flat spot. Most of my experience though was with ball check valve in pump and not much with the silicone valve, the slight gap may be necessary to stop silicone valve from feeding as fuel bowl warms to hot. In my view the ball check taking a millisecond to seal made up for the gap so I didn't set with a gap. Any weight under shooter means less or no gap either. Again, takes time to override the weight.
You may be right with manifold vacuum, I've run into that as well vs. ported. Go by the engine and screw all the theory. Believe what your eyes and ears show you. Ported vacuum was developed simply to kill vacuum at idle to kill NOx emission, NOx raises greatly at any timing before TDC. Old emissions passing trick if failing NOx, you back timing down, car runs like crap of course, pass test and bring it back up again. Backing it down makes HC go up (when tuning the two always go opposite each other) but it can be brought down other ways. Try like 10 and 34-36, higher at idle helps any flat spots provided it doesn't ping. Your vac advance unit may determine your range. Since you're after curing a flat spot then set at idle and let top end power suffer if needed till you sort the flat spot out.
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Since just basically a stock motor there I'd use stock heat range or possibly one stage colder. The stock should work though. I use the brand of plug the car comes with, Autolite or Motorcraft for Ford, AC for GM, Champion for Mopar, etc. I see no difference in any plug on the planet except that the OEM will match the heat range requirement better than someone elses', they commonly split heat ranges to fit their product in other cars.
The plugs I loathe are like Splitfire or E-3, use them and you got took brother, no other way to put it. Gimmick plugs are garbage.
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there is a stock motorcraft plug in the car. i'll get the number. had the gimmick plugs in a chevy we bought and they fouled up fairly quick. threw in a used set of autolites and havent had an issue since.
sticker calls for 6 degrees initial but this was a heavy emissions controlled car from the factory. all that stuff is gone so im going to check and bump it ahead if its that low. i'll shoot for 10 to start and see what we get.
ive had the carb apart a few times but cant remember if this one is the ball or the rubber check valve. didnt look to see if the needle/weight under the squirter was there either. ive had issues with them gumming up before. can you run without it?
im going to check timing and go after tuning the accelerator pump circuit as well. going to put a whole new pump diaphragm in and check to make sure everything is working correctly. i may go to a 58 jet as well and see if the plugs start to color a little more brown. theres no signs of richness at all so one size i dont think will hurt to try.
don't think we'll need the power valve blocker. the flat spot is at an odd time. sometime it isnt right off idle and more from a slow cruise to 3/4-wide open throttle transition. it just struggles for a second when vacuum drops right out to get on the main circuit. we get no lean backfire through the carb but it certainly seems like its getting the air but just not the fuel. i'll report back after more testing.
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bumped initial timing up to about 11 degrees. total tops out at 32. with vacuum hooked up i see extremely high numbers idleing in park. with manifold i'll see about 40 initial and 50-51 total. with ported ill see my 11 initial and still will get 50-51 total. i know the vacuum drops out under load so is this something i should be concerned with or is the vacuum doing its job? never seen my v8s show numbers that high even with vacuum hooked up. the straight mechanical numbers (11 32) seem ok.
also im assuming the T|C mark is 0. i have the crafstman gun with the advance dial so i highlighted the T|C as zero and turn my dial up to 11 and line the T|C up with the pointer. and again turn my dial to 32 to get total. does this sound right? driving around i dont hear any pinging. car starts fine. my flat spot is almost gone. think it only needs further accelerator pump adjustment. closing the gap up helped this morning.
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Pintos need 34 to 36 total timing to run right, set without vacuum.
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I'll second that, 32 total is too low. No way does idle need 40 degrees, use ported but bump initial up higher to get higher total. That figured and set with no vacuum. You can probably limit the vacuum slot......or even adjust the diaphragm. Used to be a set screw inside the nozzle. May be loctited in place though.
Yes, timing read right. If closing pump cam gap helps then look at shooter size, may need slightly bigger. Using 30 cc. pump I'm assuming, 50 cc. is too much. Need weight (at least one ball) under shooter, the vacuum induced at higher carb flow will evacuate your pump shooter passage if no weight there. Leading to another flat spot if pump not pumped up to refill.
I used to play with cams but after a lot of doing so came to conclusion they all pretty much work the same, and use what comes on the carb, rather use hole size to tune with. Once you stomp it hard enough the 'trying to compress a solid' kicks in and hole the only determinant there anyway. Cam profile means nada.
The way transfer slots work, they are needed to feed fuel like accelerator pump, if too high in the slot idle will be too rich, you then artificially lower mixture with the screws to what is actually too lean at curb idle port (the lower hole that feeds idle mixture in). It still seems right since you are adding both curb idle amount plus some of the transfer depending on how deep into it, but problems then as you go for more throttle, you get a lean spot because the transfer enrichening is already gone. So, often you are too rich followed instantly by too lean, the motor just spits its' guts out. Add pump shot being off and even worse.
At slow cruise to 3/4 throttle you should have a PV opening with that, check vacuum gauge reading against your PV rating. I've always wanted light throttle with no PV but anything over half throttle should have it coming open.
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I've gone the opposite direction to get away from the "emission" mindset. I swapped to manifold vacuum for a couple simple reasons. More advance at idle brings up the vacuum which improves the idle (and off idle) vacuum signal which should be ESPECIALLY important to you with the Holley. With a fatter A/F ratio at idle it helps cool the engine (as opposed to trying to lean it out) as well as use the considerably greater advance. Off idle response is better, gas mileage has increased considerably, and timing is easier since you aren't trying to set an arbitrary initial advance and hope you total is right.
I have a spare distributor that is being re-curved to get more out of it since the existing curve was designed to work with ported vacuum and emission controls.... this is NOT how an engine is most efficient power-wise. Decide what you are trying to accomplish and commit to it rather than try to limp more power out of mixed technologies.
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Did the same with mine, got rid of the shake at idle, better all around performance and better mileage and I'm not done yet..
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Yours and do as you will, I'm just saying the engine does not need 40 degrees at idle.......... .... You can make carb pull off idle fine easily on race engines with no vacuum at all. In short a patch for other issues.
The norm is a slightly fatter fuel ratio at idle to allay the exhaust dilution at low speed but getting carb into the transfer slot is not the way to do that. You lose the transition fuel to higher rpm. Later emission carbs will have smaller idle feed restrictions to lower emissions, the mixture screws begin to lose effect. You can slightly drill out the restriction(s) and get good adjustability back in the mixture screws if they don't seem to have an easily definable point where the screws really kill the engine going BOTH ways, not just lean. You should be able to see too rich as well but often can't with the leaner carb settings. If like that the transfers may well be feeding mixture that is too lean also. More room for a flat spot there.
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Amc49: So, you're saying (and I agree 100%) that a properly tuned 4 cylinder should have the 'shakes' at idle?
They just do. It's how they roll. They sound fantastic when properly tuned! :) lol
Mine does. I can judge the RPM it by ear. It is currently slightly off, timing wise. I attribute that to the thermostat/weather issue. :) It's been a crazy Spring here in TN. lol
Still running ported vacuum to my vacuum advance. Runs good at 6, initial...sooo o...10 is more mileage? I'll do that. Tomorrow. :)
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If you mean uneven like miss no. All fours shake though, the forces at TDC and BDC are different because of angles. The reason why so many complaints of vibration on fours. It drives Ford nuts on the FWD cars. That single rubber mount does not work nearly so well as two 90 degree opposed ones like these Pintos have. Only way to stop that shake is with balance shaft. All three zetecs I have shake, you can feel it as they idle, the hydro mount they use there is tightly tuned for idle rpm, the shake immediately disappears as soon as engine goes off-idle. The hydro mounts explode and common, the Chinese ones almost vibrate as soon as installed. I had to rig two of mine to simply quit seeing everything double. Could not find aftermarket mount that didn't shake, the Ford part way too expensive for my liking. On Focus cars that shake will vibrate the entire dash assembly which seems to be tuned to shake at idle. Ridiculous. They dropped one of the engine mounts, when they had 4 point the cars shook much less. They've gone to three mounts now and the cars shake like nobodys' business, all of them, the SOHC, zetec, duratech, crap engine mount design there, they've changed it ten times but all they do is get higher in price, they don't get any better. They get all wrapped up in later technology hydraulic type mounts, when all they have to do is make mounts like old Tempos used, again a ninety degree opposed side mount that imitated the ones on Pinto motors, all rubber and easy to make but no, that would be too d-mn easy. The problem is the mounts used now are single plane pure vertical but the forces doing the shaking are at least double plane and not purely vertical, the Tempo mount addressed that issue much better.
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Guess mine is a morphodite then,LOL because it idles smooth as can be after I hooked up the vacuum the right way(not the smog crap way) and I was able to close the butterflies way down leaving next to no transfer slot exposed, better acceleration and better mileage, oh well, LOL...
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we drove the car with these timing numbers and i can hear what im almost certain is pinging at low rpm cruise, especially going up grades/hills. thought it was a vibration but its only at certain low rpms under load. im at about 11 degrees initial and can only get 32 total mechanical advance. i can easily set it to 34-36, but with vacuum advance hooked up either way im goin to get a very high advance under light cruise. im worried im going to still have pinging. 36 total will give me about 15 initial. with manifold vacuum im going to see around 45 at idle. with ported vacuum it will idle at the 15 but off idle will see more high numbers under load at slow cruise.
with that being said, do i need to recurve the distributor for more mechanical advance? i know you just grind weights down on the chevys to do this but ive never looked under the cap on this ford so not sure what the mechanism looks like.
i still havent verified the transfer slot position. i have idle set fairly low. idle mix screws are 1 1/2 out now. motor does have some shake to it.
best way i can describe my issue is a wheezing feeling in the mid range. ive felt it before when running too small of jets in a 4 barrel on a small block. it doesnt flatten out but stops pulling hard gets kind of erratic. this feels the exact same way. on top of it sometimes transitioning from part throttle it does flatten right out to the point of just about stalling and then recovers. im already at 57 jets. i have 58s and i think 59s but this is getting past the point of even mini stock circle track tuning guidelines. it still leads me to believe i have an issue with the racer walsh restrictors not letting the power valve circuit work right. i will take a picture of where the restrictors sit the next time i have the carb apart. i drilled until the drill broke through into the passage and stopped. the inserts are just about a press fit, i pressed them all the way in until they stopped when the contacted the back wall of the passage. i checked them both for flow by blasting air through them and feeling it at the booster outlet hole. they both flow, it just seems like not enough.
i did not think of the weight under the squirter possibly causing a problem. i knew it was to keep fuel from being drawn out but never thought of the flat spot that could cause by being emptied out under vacuum. ill check and make sure that needle weight is there also.
will try some different squirter combinations as well. still a little confused on timing and what vacuum advance source will work best here but i will see what i can come up with. i'll report back soon.
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Guess mine is a morphodite then,LOL because it idles smooth as can be after I hooked up the vacuum the right way(not the smog crap way) and I was able to close the butterflies way down leaving next to no transfer slot exposed, better acceleration and better mileage, oh well, LOL...
I switched mine this morning before I left for work (by flashlight lol), and filled up on the way to work. Did seem smoother overall, and my gas gauge didn't move as much (as it usually would), but I still have to fine tune my idle.
@kerryann: Sorry we mildly derailed your thread. It'a a bad habit we seem to have. :) lol
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You recurve the advance you already have, it does not change the total amount available from stop to stop. When you mess with weights you are going past that but removing weight SLOWS DOWN advance not increases it. You recurve by using lighter springs on the weights you have. You change the total advance by physically altering the weight setup so that the limit to limit distance is increased.
You certainly don't need any more advance if you're already pinging. You recurve when you drop the vacuum unit.
What compression in the motor, what pistons?
You should be aware that the stock intake is hurting you here, it is garbage on a modded motor, it actually does not flow as well as the carb you're using there. They become a problem at around 300 cfm.
Screw the ministock guidelines, they do not go around the track at light cruise. Pretty much dead in it all the time or dead off it. And why they commonly say this or that jetting works but it then doesn't in the real world of slow cruise and slow roll traffic jams with constant on/off light throttle. If you think still lean then make sure of exact size of restrictors then find some fine wire to add restriction. Figure the size of the restriction hole (area of a circle formula) then the wire diameter size do same thing. Add the two areas together and then find a drill bit that equals that area. Drill restrictors bigger using that bit to get more PV fuel, then you can later add the wire to both holes by looping it into both to get back to the original restriction hole size again if you need to. That way you can get bigger PV restrictions yet still get back to square one.
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What size hole is in those restrictors????
The ones in the adjustable metering block made for the custom Holley 350 off road 2 bbl. are .042" each. FYI, the main jets vary from a low of 73 to 77 and higher.
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i understand how the weight system works. ive never had to do it with my v8s but by grinding away some of the stop points on the weight you can increase total advance. if i had the other problem you can weld to the weights to tighten up the stops and take advance range out. if there was concern of losing mass on the weight you can always go to lighter springs to quicken the rate the advance comes in at.
why i thought of this was the fact that i can only get 32 total with an initial setting of 11. this seems to tight of a range. vacuum advance is a whole different issue. its always better to run full manifold vacuum on the v8s if possible. what i am considering in this case with the 2.3 is trying to run ported to limit advance at idle since im seeing 40 initial with no load when using full manifold vacuum. this just seems excessive. by recurving the distributor to get more range i can run a much lower initial timing setting. then when hooked to manifold vacuum it would be back up in a reasonable range. also when vacuum drops out when opening the throttle up i would have timing come in right at the desired 34-36. does this make sense? dont want to pull my distributor apart if this doesnt seem necessary. can always tack weld to get back to square one but its a lot of work i'd like to avoid if my timing numbers seem reasonable.
these are the racer walsh restrictors:
http://www.racerwalsh.zoovy.com/product/RWA1218/carb-restrictor.html
i dont remember what the spec is on them but they are untouched. i know i could try drilling and use wire to get back but i figured that they are plenty big enough, especially since they are designed for circle track. i understand the difference between circle track conditions and street. i race circle track myself. very different carb tuning between the two.
the only thing i could think of that could be hindering the restrictors is if somehow when the drill broke through the metering block passage and hit the back wall of the passage it left a divot. Perhaps theres divots that the ends of the restrictors are sunk into now that they are pressed in and are being further restricted. not sure if you guys can visualize what im saying. im probably over thinking things. it's worth a check, just very difficult to get those restrictors back out.
i am convinced i have an accelerator pump circuit issue at this point. it may not be the only problem i think i need to make sure fuel isnt getting drawn out through the squirter leaving and empty shot when i need it at part throttle. certainly seems that that is the case. as far as jetting, racer walsh recommends a starting point of 56 with a 350 holley and that is for circle track. usually its safer to run a richer mixture in circle track. my engine builder sets his up at around 12.5:1 air fuel. on the street you can definitely run it leaner. i have 57 jets in now and have 58s to try. just seems to be getting too far away from what others have found to work on the street.
this is a stock 42k mile motor. no internal modifications. stock aluminum intake. im not looking to eek out every bit of hp possible, just make a nice cruising car that's easy to deal with. i know there are some better factory intakes out there. if i could get one cheap i may go that way down the road. just trying to get what i have tuned up. the aluminum ford two hole spacer may be hurting me as well. got it cheap on ebay. didnt want to spring for the racing open two barrel spacer that speedway sells. ive always had better luck with the spacers with bored holes in them rather than open on the street anyway.
sorry for the long winded post. in short, im still uncertain as to what proper timing is here with vacuum advance taken into account. the carb flat spot i am still working on but im pretty sure its not related to timing.
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Hmmm..
You CANNOT recurve the distributor to get more total centrifugal advance range. The stops are the upper limit and if you add spring to bring idle weights in so lower number then the high speed will be slower too and less number then on the upper end. Recurving only moves around what you already have limit to limit. Lord knows I've done enough of them.
Yes the restrictors could be pressed in too far.
You want 12.5 A/F even on the street at full throttle or piston melting time. Lean only when not under full load. All PCMed cars do that when they go open loop at full throttle.
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ok. i have not looked under the cap here so im not sure what the advance mechanism looks like. but changing the advance limits by grinding weights is pretty common. almost all gm distributors will give 24 degrees advance, but there are different shaped weights available, instead of buying these many people grind them down to change the built in stop in their profile and open up the range.
i know this is a ford and could be totally different. but since this is a 1980 and basically from the height of bad emissions ideas, is there any chance this distributor doesnt advance 24 degrees? 11 initial and 32 total would indicate only 21 degrees. the hood sticker tells you to set initial at 6 degrees. that will give me about 27 degrees total. id rather not modify anything if possible. is there a chance the distributor is worn and hanging up at some point? just had to replace a gm hei distributor recently because of how worn the pins and bushings were, the weights had grooves worn into them, timing was erratic.
the pinto timing is consistent so it shows no sings of the mechanical pieces being worn out but doesnt seem to give enough centrifugal advance to accomplish 34-36. UNLESS 15-16 degrees initial is ok. im open to ideas.
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Here's the Ford unit, the numbers stamped indicate the amount of advance it has, they are available with different slots which limits the advance but it's very common to grind them to give more advance travel done it many times, also you can increase or decrease the rounded edge of the weights to speed up or slow down the time it takes the weight to go to full advance, you use the springs to get it to full advance at the rpm you want..
(http://www.civilianjeep.info/Ignition/V-8Distributor/springsweights.gif)
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ah, i can see it now. so the stop in your picture is located on the weight that says 21R correct? this would give you 21 degrees advance? looks pretty easy to get a little more. can you flip the weights around to use the 18R and limit to 18 degrees advance? in my case im thinking i need more. what are your initial and total timing settings? where do you have your vacuum hooked and what is your initial and total in park with vacuum hooked up?
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That's not mine just a pic I snatched, timing depends on your application but I don't think you want more than 36 total maybe 10-12 initial though just have to try it and see, if it pings then you have to back it down some or run better gas, I always hook up the vacuum to manifold vacuum, ported is for smog. Mine is all out to lunch right now, my initial is around 18 an total 32 and it comes in too late, I'm surprised it runs as good as it does.
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im having the same problem. if i set this car at the initial 6 degrees they recommend id be at 27 total. id be happy if i could get around 10 initial with 34-36 total but can't do it. have you ever checked to see what your initial is with no load with vacuum hooked to the manifold? i was seeing 40 degrees at an idle. seems a little ridiculous. this car pulls 15" vacuum in gear at idle when hot and over 20" hot in park.
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I never checked it since it's all out to lunch anyhow, but initial and total without vacuum is what I set, mainly total. Even if you have 40 at idle with the vacuum when you get on the throttle it all goes away anyhow and you're on mechanical until you back off the throttle.
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i thought that was the case but when driving the car around with a vacuum gauge hooked up it still pulls vacuum at a cruise. drops down to 6-7" until you go past half throttle or so. im only mentioning this because it may be seeing a lot of advance at a cruise, and this is the same at light cruise whether ported or manifold.
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You want vacuum at cruise for more advance that's where the mileage comes in, you can get adjustable vacuum canisters to adjust the amount of advance if it starts to ping at cruise.... Here is an article about vacuum advance that will help understand the purpose/function of vacuum advance..
TIMING AND VACUUM ADVANCE 101
The most important concept to understand is that lean mixtures, such as at idle and steady highway cruise, take longer to burn than rich mixtures; idle in particular, as idle mixture is affected by exhaust gas dilution. This requires that lean mixtures have "the fire lit" earlier in the compression cycle (spark timing advanced), allowing more burn time so that peak cylinder pressure is reached just after TDC for peak efficiency and reduced exhaust gas temperature (wasted combustion energy). Rich mixtures, on the other hand, burn faster than lean mixtures, so they need to have "the fire lit" later in the compression cycle (spark timing retarded slightly) so maximum cylinder pressure is still achieved at the same point after TDC as with the lean mixture, for maximum efficiency.
The centrifugal advance system in a distributor advances spark timing purely as a function of engine rpm (irrespective of engine load or operating conditions), with the amount of advance and the rate at which it comes in determined by the weights and springs on top of the autocam mechanism. The amount of advance added by the distributor, combined with initial static timing, is "total timing" (i.e., the 34-36 degrees at high rpm that most SBC's like). Vacuum advance has absolutely nothing to do with total timing or performance, as when the throttle is opened, manifold vacuum drops essentially to zero, and the vacuum advance drops out entirely; it has no part in the "total timing" equation.
At idle, the engine needs additional spark advance in order to fire that lean, diluted mixture earlier in order to develop maximum cylinder pressure at the proper point, so the vacuum advance can (connected to manifold vacuum, not "ported" vacuum - more on that aberration later) is activated by the high manifold vacuum, and adds about 15 degrees of spark advance, on top of the initial static timing setting (i.e., if your static timing is at 10 degrees, at idle it's actually around 25 degrees with the vacuum advance connected). The same thing occurs at steady-state highway cruise; the mixture is lean, takes longer to burn, the load on the engine is low, the manifold vacuum is high, so the vacuum advance is again deployed, and if you had a timing light set up so you could see the balancer as you were going down the highway, you'd see about 50 degrees advance (10 degrees initial, 20-25 degrees from the centrifugal advance, and 15 degrees from the vacuum advance) at steady-state cruise (it only takes about 40 horsepower to cruise at 50mph).
When you accelerate, the mixture is instantly enriched (by the accelerator pump, power valve, etc.), burns faster, doesn't need the additional spark advance, and when the throttle plates open, manifold vacuum drops, and the vacuum advance can returns to zero, retarding the spark timing back to what is provided by the initial static timing plus the centrifugal advance provided by the distributor at that engine rpm; the vacuum advance doesn't come back into play until you back off the gas and manifold vacuum increases again as you return to steady-state cruise, when the mixture again becomes lean.
The key difference is that centrifugal advance (in the distributor autocam via weights and springs) is purely rpm-sensitive; nothing changes it except changes in rpm. Vacuum advance, on the other hand, responds to engine load and rapidly-changing operating conditions, providing the correct degree of spark advance at any point in time based on engine load, to deal with both lean and rich mixture conditions. By today's terms, this was a relatively crude mechanical system, but it did a good job of optimizing engine efficiency, throttle response, fuel economy, and idle cooling, with absolutely ZERO effect on wide-open throttle performance, as vacuum advance is inoperative under wide-open throttle conditions. In modern cars with computerized engine controllers, all those sensors and the controller change both mixture and spark timing 50 to 100 times per second, and we don't even HAVE a distributor any more - it's all electronic.
Now, to the widely-misunderstood manifold-vs.-ported vacuum aberration. After 30-40 years of controlling vacuum advance with full manifold vacuum, along came emissions requirements, years before catalytic converter technology had been developed, and all manner of crude band-aid systems were developed to try and reduce hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust stream. One of these band-aids was "ported spark", which moved the vacuum pickup orifice in the carburetor venturi from below the throttle plate (where it was exposed to full manifold vacuum at idle) to above the throttle plate, where it saw no manifold vacuum at all at idle. This meant the vacuum advance was inoperative at idle (retarding spark timing from its optimum value), and these applications also had VERY low initial static timing (usually 4 degrees or less, and some actually were set at 2 degrees AFTER TDC). This was done in order to increase exhaust gas temperature (due to "lighting the fire late") to improve the effectiveness of the "afterburning" of hydrocarbons by the air injected into the exhaust manifolds by the A.I.R. system; as a result, these engines ran like crap, and an enormous amount of wasted heat energy was transferred through the exhaust port walls into the coolant, causing them to run hot at idle - cylinder pressure fell off, engine temperatures went up, combustion efficiency went down the drain, and fuel economy went down with it.
If you look at the centrifugal advance calibrations for these "ported spark, late-timed" engines, you'll see that instead of having 20 degrees of advance, they had up to 34 degrees of advance in the distributor, in order to get back to the 34-36 degrees "total timing" at high rpm wide-open throttle to get some of the performance back. The vacuum advance still worked at steady-state highway cruise (lean mixture = low emissions), but it was inoperative at idle, which caused all manner of problems - "ported vacuum" was strictly an early, pre-converter crude emissions strategy, and nothing more.
What about the Harry high-school non-vacuum advance polished billet "whizbang" distributors you see in the Summit and Jeg's catalogs? They're JUNK on a street-driven car, but some people keep buying them because they're "race car" parts, so they must be "good for my car" - they're NOT. "Race cars" run at wide-open throttle, rich mixture, full load, and high rpm all the time, so they don't need a system (vacuum advance) to deal with the full range of driving conditions encountered in street operation. Anyone driving a street-driven car without manifold-connected vacuum advance is sacrificing idle cooling, throttle response, engine efficiency, and fuel economy, probably because they don't understand what vacuum advance is, how it works, and what it's for - there are lots of long-time experienced "mechanics" who don't understand the principles and operation of vacuum advance either, so they're not alone.
Vacuum advance calibrations are different between stock engines and modified engines, especially if you have a lot of cam and have relatively low manifold vacuum at idle. Most stock vacuum advance cans aren’t fully-deployed until they see about 15” Hg. Manifold vacuum, so those cans don’t work very well on a modified engine; with less than 15” Hg. at a rough idle, the stock can will “dither” in and out in response to the rapidly-changing manifold vacuum, constantly varying the amount of vacuum advance, which creates an unstable idle. Modified engines with more cam that generate less than 15” Hg. of vacuum at idle need a vacuum advance can that’s fully-deployed at least 1”, preferably 2” of vacuum less than idle vacuum level so idle advance is solid and stable; the Echlin #VC-1810 advance can (about $10 at NAPA) provides the same amount of advance as the stock can (15 degrees), but is fully-deployed at only 8” of vacuum, so there is no variation in idle timing even with a stout cam.
For peak engine performance, driveability, idle cooling and efficiency in a street-driven car, you need vacuum advance, connected to full manifold vacuum. Absolutely. Positively. Don't ask Summit or Jeg's about it – they don’t understand it, they're on commission, and they want to sell "race car" parts.
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I just read this on another forum the other day lol. There seems to be widespread confusion about this topic.
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That article is on just about every automotive related site out there, I snagged it from a Ford site this time, LOL. Don't know what the confusion is though..
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Found what I was looking for-the 350 Holley may well be a moot point.
June 1983 Popular Hot Rodding, '2.3 Liter Ford Power Tricks' article by Dave Vizard........ .
The stock 2.3 intake is a bottleneck past about 250-275 cfm carb. He flow tests the stock intake with stock 5200 and then same intake with 350 Holley, both flowed while bolted to a head. The 5200 carb flowed 117 cfm including air filter, the 350 flowed 119.
That's TWO measly cfm for the bigger carb, it doesn't help there at all, the manifold kills it.
The article also shows the Offy plus 390 Holley 4 bbl. does not flow as well as the 2.0 intake with adapter on the 2.3 plus a Holley 2 bbl. Even with the 2.0/2.3 mismatch that occurs there because of different runners.
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Racer Walsh once told me that the 2.0 intake with a 500 Holley 2 barrel, made with in 5 HP of the best he ever got with weber side drafts. And this was on a dyno. Best stock intake ever???? Sure sounds like it.
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Racer Walsh once told me that the 2.0 intake with a 500 Holley 2 barrel, made with in 5 HP of the best he ever got with weber side drafts. And this was on a dyno. Best stock intake ever???? Sure sounds like it.
IT IS a pretty good stock intake...but the short 2&3 runners...it should be even...the runners need to be even! :)
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IT IS a pretty good stock intake...but the short 2&3 runners...it should be even...the runners need to be even! :)
i had a manifold that came over from europe (don't know if it was from the UK or Germany) on my 2.0 that had the #'s 1 & 4 runners meet the plenum at the inside (cylinder head side) and the #'s 2 & 3 runners meet the plenum at the outside (fender well side).
made for a more favorable combination of runner lengths.
it was a Ford OE part but from what i haven't a clue. in my case it did help with fuel distribution issues concerning #'s 1 & 4 running lean at high boost levels.
the occurrence of melted pistons in those holes was darn near eliminated. prior to the use off this manifold those two rascals were draining my wallet pretty fast!
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While one of the first things you look for is for the runners to be even, it is more about area. Shorter runners can be slightly bigger in size and have the same area as longer ones with smaller diameters. How Edelbrock made millions with the Torker intakes, the runners were all different sizes. They assured you in every set of instructions that if you matched ports to head you just destroyed the manifold. The engine sees the area more than the length since they are all too short anyway, tuned length has them more like EFI manifolds now, or much longer.
I do not know if the 2.0 intake has different areas in runners or not but Vizard swore by the fact the manifold was also very efficient runner to runner. Like 93% or so. So sometimes appearance can be deceiving. Part of it to me is the much better plenum shape, which just blows a 2.3 plenum all to h-ll. The 2.3 has jagged points sticking out and dead flat with no room to turn at all. EGR plate just makes it worse. Worst of the worst there. The 2 & 3 are even worse, half the port is missing inside the plenum so maybe 2 inches long. All hard angles and calculated to not flow smooth. Airflow loves gradual turns, i.e. the 2.0.
Motors can be funny things, sometimes what looks right is not, that article pointed that out about the stock 2.3 intake as far as just viewing it from the outside. It's a real disaster once you look under the carb and there's no fixing it.
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I did ever thing I could think of to 2.3 intakes and it only made them worse. I welded them, ported them, added dividers, cut-welded-beat-ground and in ever case, it ran the same. Then I talked to a Ford tech who told me that on the dyno it made no difference what carb was used, the 2.3 put out the same HP. Why? Cause that's all the intake would flow. JUNK!!!!
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Guess that settles that, LOL..
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Found what I was looking for-the 350 Holley may well be a moot point.
June 1983 Popular Hot Rodding, '2.3 Liter Ford Power Tricks' article by Dave Vizard........ .
The stock 2.3 intake is a bottleneck past about 250-275 cfm carb. He flow tests the stock intake with stock 5200 and then same intake with 350 Holley, both flowed while bolted to a head. The 5200 carb flowed 117 cfm including air filter, the 350 flowed 119.
That's TWO measly cfm for the bigger carb, it doesn't help there at all, the manifold kills it.
The article also shows the Offy plus 390 Holley 4 bbl. does not flow as well as the 2.0 intake with adapter on the 2.3 plus a Holley 2 bbl. Even with the 2.0/2.3 mismatch that occurs there because of different runners.
Does anyone know where to find this article online? If not, would it be possible for you to scan and upload it? I'm sure many people on this site would find it interesting. I searched for it but google didn't turn up anything this old.
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How do they feel here about copyrighted material from a company that is still in business? Some places get pretty uptight about it, you can be sued over it. I see this in the onsite registration agreement..... ......they refuse responsibility in the standard disclaimer and put it all on me, don't really wanna go there.
'You also agree not to post any copyrighted material unless you own the copyright or you have written consent from the owner of the copyrighted material.'
I do see some stuff in the onsite articles from Car Craft and Hot Rod. Is Car Craft magazine still around?
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74 pinto wagon, i have read that article before, straightened me out on where to run the vacuum. my only reason for thinking ported may work here is because of the very high advance saw at idle. it's most likely fine under load. i didnt know if there was adjustable vacuum canisters for the ford distributors. ive used the crane adjustable canisters on the gm distributors and they work well. i still feel as though i may need a bigger range of centrifugal advance. i only get 21 degrees out of it. to get 36 total that gives me an initial timing of 15 degrees. Should i grind the weight or look for a different set?
After reading about some other distributors on the early models, a 1980 2.3 wouldn't have a timing retard port on it would it? i only see one vacuum port and it definitely advances the distributor.
As far as the intake and carb, i only switched to the holley 350 for ease of use. Wasn't so much concerned with increasing hp. The stock weber is an octopus of vacuum lines and it kept sticking throttle position at half to 3/4. Must have been some fast idle setting issue or something wearing out, but wouldnt go away even when warm. these little cars can be hard to stop at a stop sign on wet pavement when the throttle doesnt return. that is one thing i cant stand so we just switched to the holley since i already now them inside and out and all tuning parts are readily available.
A 2.0 intake is the way to go? What about late model intakes off mustangs and rangers? Isn't the EFI intake a good swap? I think those use a 4 barrel throttle body but an adapter could be used for the 2 barrel right?
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You always have vacuum at at idle that's ok, it idles a lot smoother and the throttle can be closed a lot further exposing less transfer slot. You can get aftermarket canisters that have an adjusting screw and some have a shorter slot to limit the travel, but if it don't rattle at cruise you're ok. I'm new to these little motors so I'm learning this stuff, but just looking at these intakes the lower EFI gotta be way better, already have the intake and header for mine just need the carb, the Autolite I want seems petty hard to find but as soon as I find one I'll be doing the switch, adapter don't look hard to make, already found a chunk in the scrap, er, I mean material bin to make one.
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How do they feel here about copyrighted material from a company that is still in business? Some places get pretty uptight about it, you can be sued over it. I see this in the onsite registration agreement..... ......they refuse responsibility in the standard disclaimer and put it all on me, don't really wanna go there.
'You also agree not to post any copyrighted material unless you own the copyright or you have written consent from the owner of the copyrighted material.'
I do see some stuff in the onsite articles from Car Craft and Hot Rod. Is Car Craft magazine still around?
ok, I hadn't thought about that. I sure don't want to get anyone in trouble.
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How do they feel here about copyrighted material from a company that is still in business? Some places get pretty uptight about it, you can be sued over it. I see this in the onsite registration agreement..... ......they refuse responsibility in the standard disclaimer and put it all on me, don't really wanna go there.
'You also agree not to post any copyrighted material unless you own the copyright or you have written consent from the owner of the copyrighted material.'
I do see some stuff in the onsite articles from Car Craft and Hot Rod. Is Car Craft magazine still around?
Yep they're still around, if articles are on the net and you can copy/paste than it's not copyrighted anymore, you see articles pasted on every board around, every time I run across something copyrighted it won't let me copy it, so far I haven't been able to anyhow...
http://www.carcraft.com (http://www.carcraft.com)
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74 pintowagon which intake are you going to use?
i do have what i think is a slight ping rattle at light cruise, especially up a small grade so i think i may need to either limit vacuum advance or increase my centrifugal range higher than 21 degrees.
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I got the lower EFI intake seems like the one to use. Changing the centrifugal will not change the vacuum advance, you need to limit the travel of the vacuum unit that's why you get adjustable ones, or one that has less travel, if it's pinging very little you could back it off a degree and try it don't take much sometimes.
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it is pinging very little. just frustrated that my total is only at 32 and initial is at 11. i figured if a lower static centrifugal number could be achieved, when combined with vacuum it might not ping then but still advance to 34-36 range which ive been told is optimum with these motors. i can bump the timing back to 8 or so initial and probably be all set but then my total is back to 29 or so.
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You should be at 36 get yourself an adjustable canister or one with a shorter slot. BTW, what rpm does your total come in?? it should be all in by 2700-2800...
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Alter the vacuum slot yourself.
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i'll try and find a tach and see when im getting total in. if i need to change can you use the different color springs like crane sells for the chevys? not sure if the ford is a different size, already have some if the chevy springs fit.
im all for altering what i have. im sure i can limit the vacuum easy enough. if i set this thing at 36 total, what is an acceptable range for initial? i was told 10 earlier in this thread. i just can't do that without modification. that's 26 degrees centrifugal advance. i'll alter the weights/stop if i have to, just curious if its even necessary if some of you are running a very high initial without issue.
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AT this point, you would be better off going back to the stock 36/32 carb unless you just want all these problems.
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i'll try and find a tach and see when im getting total in. if i need to change can you use the different color springs like crane sells for the chevys? not sure if the ford is a different size, already have some if the chevy springs fit.
im all for altering what i have. im sure i can limit the vacuum easy enough. if i set this thing at 36 total, what is an acceptable range for initial? i was told 10 earlier in this thread. i just can't do that without modification. that's 26 degrees centrifugal advance. i'll alter the weights/stop if i have to, just curious if its even necessary if some of you are running a very high initial without issue.
Check the advance slot if you're on the narrow one rotate it to the wide one, if you're on the wide one grind a little don't take much though to make a difference. Don't remember about the springs just take one off and compare them. I just bought a reman Duraspark for mine and it's out to lunch, my initial is 18 and all I get is 32, gotta dig into that soon..
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IIRC used to be Ford and GM used different advance springs. Mr. Gasket made a set of earlier curve ones for each. We used the GM ones on AMCs since the distributor was a GM Delco-Remy one.
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You can still get MrGasket springs Summit has them... Here's a couple of articles that might be of help on this subject..
http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread.php?22229-The-Ultimate-Duraspark-Distributor-Timing-Guide
(http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread.php?22229-The-Ultimate-Duraspark-Distributor-Timing-Guide)
http://reincarnation-automotive.com/Duraspark_distributor_recurve_instructions_index.html
(http://reincarnation-automotive.com/Duraspark_distributor_recurve_instructions_index.html)
MrGasket Ford springs.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-925d/overview/make/ford (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-925d/overview/make/ford)
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hey thanks for those links, thats exactly what i needed. going to fine tune the centrifugal advance next chance i get. should solve my timing problem. the car must be set on 10L right now, or have a problem there thats not allowing it to fully advance. i'll worry about the speed that it all comes in at after. the pinging should go away if i can limit the initial.
im never going back to that 36/32 carb. still have it sitting in the basement if someone is interested in one. car was undriveable with it. i know they can be fixed. just don't want to learn those carbs, don't care for the dozens of vacuum lines everywhere either. holleys are all pretty much the same and the easiest to work with. flat spot is just about gone. i'll get back on that issue as soon as im happy with my timing curve. might be on the hunt for a better intake soon as well. thanks for all the help so far.
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The initial won't help the pinging, if it only pings at cruise you need to limit the vacuum advance. First thing you need to do is set the centrifugal vacuum is last, get the right curve and set the total where you want it, drive it without vacuum hooked up, it shouldn't rattle through the rpm range if it does you'll have to back it down some, after it's right then set your vacuum advance.
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X2..........
'holleys are all pretty much the same and the easiest to work with.......... ..'
I for one do not agree, if you truly understand how a Holley works then you already understand how others work as well, it becomes simply a take-it-apart-and-see-how-they-do-it exercise after that. The 32/36 is mucho more adjustable than the Holley and dead reliable. It will get better mileage too. The flat spot here may well be Holley induced, or the difference between calling one booster online vs two, four cylinders will initiate flow faster at a single venturi than two of them.
Start simply switching metering blocks out on Holleys and quickly find out about how they are 'all pretty much the same'.............. ..taint so. I've certainly straightened out enough of them that were butchered by so-called 'experts'. Correct metering block on carb is check #1, you'd be amazed how many mess up a block and swap wrong one to have the carb go to crap, then they cannot figure out what's wrong. Or piece one carb together from five then want $150 for junk. If numbers don't match I don't touch them, a waste of time. Having a Holley on it is much more likely to run into trouble later, they always want to screw with it. The other brands highly likely to have a virgin carb, they are scared of them. You have no idea how many Holley sales I stifled back in the day by simply changing or fixing a $20 issue on a carb the person was afraid of. They always wanted to 'put a Holley on it' (sound familiar?), much of the time they realized later it was a mistake. Holleys never get as good mileage as OEM carbs, they are metered rich for performance and utterly destroy emissions levels. When they insisted I always added 'keep the old carb!', often it went back on the car.
Holleys are great for power but almost nothing can repeat the driveability of an OEM carb in proper working order on almost every vehicle out there. They don't spend millions in carb/engine research for nothing there.
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understood. but pinging hasnt popped up until i got greedy trying to get close to 34-36 total. if i back initial down to 6-8, it goes away but my total suffers (around 26-27). haven't changed vacuum advance at all yet. i would like to limit it as talked about before. if there any way to know that youre close to a reasonable range of vacuum + initial by checking initial timing in park with vacuum advance hooked up? or even in drive at idle with someone else holding foot on the brake so im able to check my initial timing? im sure i can limit vacuum, but how much is too much?
this is my first 4 banger ive tuned. spent a lot of time over the years with holleys on small block v8s. yes carbs with smaller primaries like edelbrocks, rochesters, carters, etc might get better gas mileage but ive never been able to match performance. i persoanlly hate the edelbrocks, just good for cruising around. im pretty good with the rochester 2 barrels just because i have to be for some of the circle track classes ive run. as far as holleys, most people just instantly go for a holley that's too big. the best combo ive used on a chevy 350 is a 450 cfm holley mech secondary 4 barrel carb with no secondary accelerator pump (non double pumper). it required swapping to a 1850 model 650 metering block to get the right fuel curve. that carb was dead reliable and could hit full throttle from any rpm, dead stop to 3/4 throttle cruise with no hesitation or flat spot at all. cruised and drag raced with it. got very good mileage for a 350 v8. i like tuning and having all the small parts interchangeabl e. only thing that kills them is throttle shaft bushing wear. once they are worn they will never perform right. there are a lot of ill performing holleys driving around but when they are right they work.
that being said, i know there is nothing wrong with the factory carbs. i wanted to clean the car up, get rid of the 1980 vacuum mess, and use something im familiar with. we now have a header, no catalytic converters (took out two) and no smog pump. wasnt sure what small parts id have to buy to rejet if necessary or tune the stock weber. some of these old carbs like rochesters can be a pain to get the small parts for and for me to be satisfied with the weber i would have had to eliminate all fast idle, choke, or any other annoying automatic mouse traps on it. i warm my cars up with my foot in the colder months. can't stand something that chooses rpm for me or locks out my throttle blades. no offense to anyone on carb preference but i was just intrigued on here with the success people have had with the 350 holley. so far i am pretty happy with it. the stock weber is still sitting around but i doubt i'll try and go back. i supposed if i get a spare moment i'll do some investigation and figure out where the issue with it is.
im more interested in getting a better flowing intake now. and i may also switch to an 8" rear that a friend has out of a mustang II to go from 3.08 in the little 7.5 to a 3.40.
i type too long of posts haha, thanks for all the help, all opinions and ideas are much appreciated, this is one of the most helpful forums ive been on so far. i will report back once i make some progress on this thing.
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Don't worry about initial total is critical, run the total as close to 36 as you can go before it pings(no vacuum), if you can't go any more than 27 total before it pings then you'll have to run better gas, either that or you're running very lean now??. Have you read the plugs after a good run??..
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FYI, you can run a simple manual choke cable easily to the 5200, I drove one like that for years.
Thinking the leaves on M II rear are different width than Pinto, could be wrong. Affects mounting pads. I had one around for a while, considering using it until looked at that. Rear won't be 8" if 6 or 4, rather the 6 3/4" one. Someone will jump in to correct me............ ......
BTW I made good use of a solenoid on the throttle that dropped the idle speed setting to completely closed throttle when key cut off. I had no pinging but the very dickens with after running (dieseling) after motor killed.
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Those are called dash pots, I love them things..
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Oh, and you took that rather well, most young people now will get all in your face over the slightest perceived slight, not that I was trying to, as I was not. And not that I know how old you are either. Just like to give credit where due. So hard to find people who don't freak out over every little thing now........... .....the people here onsite are by and large quite reserved I've noticed. I probably fly off the handle more than most of them (not my better side unfortunately).
Actually dashpot more accurately describes the rubber damper that just slows down throttle falloff for decel emissions or to stop stalling at throttle rolloff. But yes I have heard the term bandied about. How about 'sol-a-dash' or combination solenoid AND dashpot? Ain't heard that one in a while.
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Well, I'm not quite that young, LOL... Well, I've always known them to be called dash pots even the dealers called them that, back in the 70's we ran a tunnelram on the Altered for a while and the damn thing would never shut down right away so we put one of them on end of problem, I used them on a lot of vehicles after that they work great..
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/Duralast-Dashpot/_/N-8ve9e?itemIdentifier=615831_0_0_ (http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/Duralast-Dashpot/_/N-8ve9e?itemIdentifier=615831_0_0_)
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im actually only 27 years old. nowhere near old enough to have enough experience or have gone through the learning experience most others on here probably have with the old american made stuff. the pinto is my girl friend's car (that's why the name kerryann). The car and all the technology used here was made long before we were born. It's also the newest vehicle we own, and we have many cars and trucks.
Hope I havent come across the wrong way to anybody. we got this holley 350 for $20 at a swap meet after reading peoples experiences with the swap on this forum. wanted to see if i could make it work. it's been a fun project so far. fairly simple and purely mechanical which is what i like. think i am on the right track now, just have to put the time in. we work on this one outside and weather up here in new england has been awful, hopefully it warms up soon.
As far as the 8" rear, im sure it wont be a bolt in, but i dont mind chopping the mounts and moving them. fabrication is another aspect of the hot rodding hobby i really enjoy. supposed to end up with 3 mini stock 8" rears out of pintos and the one from the mustang II all for under $100 so i'll see what i can come up with from the pile.
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8" rear end is a direct bolt in. Pinto backing plates / brake drums / drive shaft, all work as is. Couldn't be easyer.
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good to hear on the 8" i thought for sure we were going to have to cut the driveshaft or find a longer one. what do you guys think of a 3.40 gear for the street? we currently have a 3.08. a friend of mine swears that that was the way to go on these cars and that he got the best mileage letting these little motors wind up into the power band a little more. that was a long time back from the days of non ethanol fuel as well though.
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The engine revs a good 500 rpm more at 60-70 mph than a V-8 and normal.
$20 carb huh? It becomes clear and I'da done that for only $20 too. Price rules (right Dianne? please put down that brick.......).
I used to strip and toss solenoids and dashpots off everything, I wish I had kept a few. Them things come in handy for specific issues and expensive as heck now. If you can even find the particular one you need.
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got a new distributor coming in the morning. destroyed the old distributor trying to get to the advance plates. last screw to take the plate off that holds the pickup wouldnt budge. tried using as much finesse as possible but it still cracked. then snapped off both bolts for the vacuum advance. hoping these remans will last more than a few months.
now im really confused. the advance plate was on the 21R slot. this would mean 42 degrees of mechanical advance correct? the other slot is 16R. says 21L and 16L on the bottom when you flip it over. has one lighter weight pink spring and one heavier red spring.
How am i only seeing about 20-21 degrees advance on the 21R slot? I have no idea what will come in my new distributor tomorrow but im saving this piece with 21 and 16 just in case. Are these truly half the advance numbers? just seems very strange that 21R gives me 20-21 degrees advance even though it should be giving me 42. i forgot to mark my rotor positioning also so might have a fun time trying to get the new distributor in the right spot.
i also ordered the single vacuum distributor, not the dual vacuum. not sure if that was the right thing to do or not.
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You only need the single the dual was for smog, the long slot will give you less initial than the short one.
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how will the long slot give less initial timing than the short? i thought these slots were just limits on total timing. and i thought the numbers stamped on them represented half of the number of total mechanical advance. initial you set by turning the distributor until you get it where you want it correct? then a 21R slot would allow the distributor to advance another 42 degrees (2x21). Am I wrong here? this is starting too seem too confusing.
I also noticed there's not much support for springs for ford distributors. the mr. gasket kit only gives you one set of springs.
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ok i understand that distributor turns at half of crank rotation, so 21R should be giving me 42 degrees at the crank, just not sure why this wasn't happening. springs were plenty stiff enough to pull weights back to the end of the slot. any chance the springs would ever be too stiff to allow the full centrifugal advance? since the stock distributor is now broke, i'll see what i can get with the reman.
can this type of ignition be statically timed with the ignition on? i figure im going to have to get #1 at TDC and just get the rotor to point at #1 plug wire, then put a little advance in and see where im at.
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how will the long slot give less initial timing than the short? i thought these slots were just limits on total timing. and i thought the numbers stamped on them represented half of the number of total mechanical advance. initial you set by turning the distributor until you get it where you want it correct? then a 21R slot would allow the distributor to advance another 42 degrees (2x21). Am I wrong here? this is starting too seem too confusing.
I also noticed there's not much support for springs for ford distributors. the mr. gasket kit only gives you one set of springs.
The total is the same regardless of the slot, it's the amount of travel. As an example say you have 36 total and 16 initial with a short slot, with the long slot you would still have 36 total but the initial may only be 12, if you widen the slot on the return side initial will drop more.
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ok that is what i am after, with 36 total i dont want to have 15 initial like what happens currently. there is also a thin bushing on the stop that i know i could have removed. but its irrelevant now that i need to put in a new distributor. im going to take the new one apart and verify whats in it first.
doing some more reading last night i found this interesting as well.
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/crn-271e.pdf
these are instructions for the crane adjustable vacuum advance canister for fords. heres the last paragraphs:
The curve you have achieved is designed to give you the best economy and performance.
In general, cars and trucks originally equipped with Ford Electronic distributors will be able to use a total advance of 45° to 55°. Some factors may limit the amount of total ignition timing your vehicle can use. These factors are increased compression, declining octane rating of gasoline, certain intake manifolds that will not tolerate increased ignition timing, lock-up torque converters, extremely heavy loads, and lean fuel mixture.
can you really get away with this much total on regular gas?
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This has been explained in previous posts, lol, but you're getting the idea..
Every application is different you won't know until you try it, that's the reason for adjustability. BTW, nothing wrong with 15 initial.
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crane also suggests sticking with stiffer advance springs due to the increasingly worse and worse gasoline. i think some of my issue may be that i wasnt winding the car up to 4500 or so where they say full advance comes in with the very stiff spring. may have been missing the boat altogether and actually had more total at high speed. either way i will get it straightened out. would like to see full advance a little sooner. not sure i can go right to full advance by 2500 with regular gas. if i get up to 15 or more initial i assume im going to have to greatly limit the vacuum advance to stop pinging. id rather have a lower initial so that the overlap of vacuum advance puts it in a good spot. we'll see, going to pick up new distributor now.
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Like I said you won't know until you try it. Again, vacuum advance has nothing to do with the initial or total, the vacuum advances beyond the total at cruise when the vacuum is up, if it rattles at cruise(full vacuum)then adjust the canister so it won't pull all the way, you back it off a little at a time until the rattle goes away, your total is still going to be the same on the centrifugal.
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i completely understand that, i didnt think the stock canister was adjustable with an allen wrench like the crane. if it is that will be easy. if not im not exactly sure yet the best way to modify the vacuum advance limit.
also, there is no easy way to find TDC on cylinder one without pulling valve cover is there? im in the process of pulling the valve cover to watch the valves so i know im at the top of the intake stroke.
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The stock canister is not adjustable, you'll have to get an aftermarket one. To bring it up on TDC pull #1 plug out, rotate the motor with your finger on the hole, when you feel pressure on your finger you're coming up on #1, now line up your timing marks at 0 on the tab, to find "absolute" TDC you'll need a piston stop.
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got it on tdc by pulling valve cover and watching intake valve. used a stop on piston but its pretty easy to see by eye down the hole when it stops.
first time distributor did not fit at all. checked old distributor with my vernier and sure enough it was bigger around on the machined surface than the last one. i removed o ring and carefull sanded id down to match the old distributor. blew it off with air. put o ring back on. lubricated it with engine oil. now it drops right down to where the gear and oil pump drive have to mesh and drop all the way down. won't do it. ive been carefully turning the oil pump drive with a long 5/16" ratched with long extension on it. what a pain. i assume this must be my last problem. it can be frustrating to do on the chevys as well. just so far cant get them to go together. all the lengths are the same and gear pitch and number of teeth on the gears are the same. i'll keep working on it but the other one still drops right in.
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That's no problem, if the the drive don't engage just rotate the motor when it lines up the distributor will drop down done deal, continue to TDC and set the rotor to #1..
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getting the rotor at #1 is where i am having the problem. i never thought id have such a hard time getting the distributor to drop down and engage the oil pump driveshaft. i turn the shaft with a socket and a couple extensions over and over very slightly and just seem to get nowhere. i got it in once with what seemed like the right advance and it would not run just backfire. took it out and got it in with the rotor pointing right at #1 so that i can still pull some advance in it and it still will not run, just misfires and backfires.
the picture shows the first position which i assume had too much static advance. the small black sharpie mark on the vacuum armature represents where #1 is when the cap is on. can anyone tell me where the rotor should be facing when it drops down?
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I don't understand why you're having so much trouble, as I said before just put the distributor in if it don't drop just rotate the motor until it drops. Number 1 can be where ever you want it to be, but right now put the cap on and put a mark on the side of the distributor at #1 wire now put the distributor in where you want it with the rotor pointing at the mark, when it drops down bring it up to TDC and line up the rotor with the mark and you're at 0*.. If it ends up too far one way or the other just pull it back out move it whichever way and do it again.
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i don't follow. there is a recess in the shaft that the plastic rotor falls into. this keeps it in position. i set the motor at TDC on cyl 1 and get the distributor to drop down. now i can set the distributor so that the rotor points directly at #1 and it just still will not fire.
ive just tried 4 different consecutive teeth on the distributor gear, each advancing more. and set the timing so the rotor points at #1 or slightly advanced.
it finally fired up but now it just surges and dies, backfires every now and then. i can keep it running by popping the throttle when it goes to die but it wont idle at all. my gf tried to keep it running for me while i tried to see where timing was but i just cant get an accurate reading, its all over the place because of the surging.
can anyone PLEASE either tell me or take a picture of where their rotor and vacuum advancer are pointing on a car that is timed right and at TDC of cylinder 1?? ive never had this much trouble with a distributor before.
it is in the 16L slot and has a bushing on the stop, i figured that was a good place to start but im at a loss. it has two light springs on it, the one that came out had one very heavy spring and one light, maybe theres an issue there. i don't know what else to do. just cleaned out the carburetor again and put in a new accelerator pump diaphragm. made no difference. carb worked fine before. i just cant figure this distributor out
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You're out of time, when the motor is at TDC(on compression) the rotor should be pointing at #1 plug wire.
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i have achieved this and it will not even start, just hesitates and backfires. i can tell its out of time but ive followed every duraspark timing thread ive found on the internet. It truly doesnt matter what tooth distributor is on as long as the rotor points to #1 wire?
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Well, you have other things going on then, is the cam timed right, how bout the plug wires are they on the firing order?, it don't matter where the distributor is at as long as you're on TDC on compression and the rotor is pointing at #1, again everything else has to be timed right also.
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ive tried every position imaginable, just wont work. i have finally noticed that when i turn the distributor counterclockwi se spark cuts out. it doesnt appear to be a loose wire going to the distributor, im not sure why its doing that. getting ready to make the parts store take this distributor back. i dont know how cam timing or anything could have went out of adjustment considering the car ran fine 3 days ago. just doesnt make any sense. going to look for a distributor out of a used vehicle i guess so i know that it works.
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Now that my timing issue has been taken care of, im back with stumbling problems. tried just about every pump cam today. i have a chart that gives duration and lift of all the cams. currently back on the white cam. tried different size squirters as well to no avail.
I did notice one potential problem, the idle mix screw on the left side (opposite from side with throttle lever) can be turned all the way in and vacuum will fall but car will stay running. By turning the other screw all the way in the engine dies. I would assume theres something not letting that needle seat completely on the side that doesn't kill the engine. i have already replaced the small cork gaskets before and checked the seat visually when i did it, didnt see any visual issues.
I drove around while tuning with the vacuum gauge on a tee on full manifold vacuum. my problem is during light acceleration. i can get the car moving smoothly but as load increases or if i try to give it more throttle vacuum drops just about to 0 and that is where the real bad spot is, motor ceases firing for about 1-2 seconds. 5-10 of vacuum is really smooth but i either have to get the car going very slow or flat foot it. either extreme isnt favorable for street driving. there is no flat spot going idle to WOT. After the flat spot the engine will recover and speed up and start to pull vacuum again. even only 2-3" of vacuum is enough to get the thing rolling again and recover. Not sure if i should be seeing 0 vacuum under light acceleration. Im not really sure how to fix this either.
Still have the 7.5" power valve in it. have about 13" of vacuum at idle in gear so i am assuming that valve is close. blew air through both racer walsh restrictors, they both flow. I still can't tell if this is a lean spot or over rich, no backfires through carb like lean usually does just a dead flat spot. Ive read that most people had better luck with 5.5" power valves with the restrictors but they also didnt mention what vacuum they were getting. had a 5.5" before and then went to 6.5 and then 7.5 without feeling much of a difference. Considering going up to 58 jets but i dont think jet size is affecting my part throttle light acceleration, i could be wrong there though. Maybe this carb with the stock intake just isnt going to work that great? i have a race cam 2.5" power valve i could try just to go to one extreme. think i may have a 10.5" in the box too.
Any ideas?
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What size squirter do you have???..
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was up to 31 with no nozzles but didnt make a difference. went back down to 25 with nozzles. have 28 and 37 as well but havent seen a difference changing them.
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What do you mean with or no nozzles???, there's only one piece there???...
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some squirters have little brass nozzles that direct the fuel a little closer to the booster vs just the drilled orifice. they give you both types of each number with the trick kit. theres a third kind called anti pullover squirters but theyre for spread bores
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Hole size all that matters there, nozzle or no is irrelevent. If flat spot right above idle then transfers, hate to keep going there again. The idle screws should both have same effect, one not killing motor may mean a clog in passage somewhere. PV ratings do not matter if at light throttle and the problem, the power valve should not be open then. Power valve only opens with higher load. Only transfers and a slight (why cams don't matter) amount of pump shot until the main boosters activate at light throttle. Transfers will not work correctly if wrong on the slot or the idle screw messed up, the transfer fuel is the extra that curb idle port does not use. Idle mixture screw sets both the idle and off-idle (transfer) fuel. You could have a clogged idle restriction, that may be buried inside the main or idle well and hard to get to. Some are easy to see on metering block.
At very slight slow throttle increase away from idle the pump shot does nothing, it's all in the transfers jack. If correct there you need no pump shot at all on slow increase. Pump shot only for bigger quicker throttle changes. Like motorcycle, most have no accelerator pump at all, the transition circuits on those carbs do the same as on these.
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yes thats what ive been thinking. almost took the pump cam right out to see if i can pinpoint the spot.
as far as the transfer slots, once you set that idle screw with the carb off the car so you can see you really can't move it after that can you? again i have no tach but have idle as low as i can. the mix screws can be turned a wide range without affecting vacuum.from about 3/4" turn out to 1 3/4" turn out is where vacuum is the highest and stays about the same. ive been putting them at 1 1/2" out to be on the rich side if anything.
Ill try some carb cleaner in the idle port and some compressed air. ive gotten lucky that way before with blockages.
do you think im getting into trouble with the stiff 7.5 power valve? even easing into the throttle you can see vacuum creep down to 5 or so then really drop right out to 0. could be giving too much fuel at light throttle?
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some squirters have little brass nozzles that direct the fuel a little closer to the booster vs just the drilled orifice. they give you both types of each number with the trick kit. theres a third kind called anti pullover squirters but theyre for spread bores
Ok, you're talking tube type and they don't really mean much it's the volume(hole size), the number on them is the hole size in thousands, and big is not always good you can get the same effect from too much fuel, I always start small and drill them one size at a time until the stumble goes away, but if it stumbles without whacking the throttle then you have other issues, it could be the power valve, the number on them tells the amount of vacuum it takes to hold them closed, so whatever your vacuum is at idle you want the next number that it will hold it closed, so say you have 15in of vacuum you don't want one that won't open till 5in, that will take too long for it to open and you'll get a stumble.
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i currently have a 7.5 in it. had 5.5 to start and then 6.5 and none of them had any effect on this stumble. i was concered that at light throttle acceleration that vacuum drops down to 5" thats opening the power valve circuit and could be too much? especially since there is no hesitation when throttle is flat footed wide open. the car starts to pull from idle (13") to maybe 1/4-1/3 throttle (13" down to about 5") then at a certain degree of throttle opening or sooner if on a hill it drops under 5" and goes right to 0" and flattens right, recovers and you start to see about 2-3" vacuum on the gauge as it climbs in rpm.
since its so early it must be an idle passage/mixture problem. im going to try and clean it and set the blades right. barely visible transition slot to about .020" is correct right? and after that you can't really play with the throttle screw correct?
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Sounds like you could have clogged up passages wouldn't hurt to clean them out, you want the least amount of transfer slot exposed as possible.
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did some disassembly. all ports seem to be clean and flow air.
One thing i have stumbled upon is that the gasket im using does not have a hole in it for the outside (larger) air bleeds in the main body. this is a trick kit gasket and im running out of all the different variations. i could have swore that this was a direct match to the old crusty one i took out when i rebuilt it but i could be wrong. Should this air bleed passage have a hole in the gasket on each side? the kits i see for the holley 350 on ebay do not have this hole in the gasket. and again im almost certain that i matched up the gasket with the one that came out perfectly
also the slots are completely covered just barely. nothing showing.
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almost forgot i took pictures too
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Here's the right gasket for 2300. Slot almost all covered is good..
http://www.holley.com/108-91-2.asp (http://www.holley.com/108-91-2.asp)
Maybe this might be of interest too.
http://www.holley.com/data/Products/Technical/199R7950-7rev7.pdf (http://www.holley.com/data/Products/Technical/199R7950-7rev7.pdf)
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looks like i have the right gasket. maybe i have to jet up. kind of at a loss here. i don't see any real suspect issues.
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Best thing would be to put it back to the way it was out of the box and start over, at the bottom of the page of the instruction manual pick your list number for the specs.
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ART! See why I'm using a Autolite / Motorcraft.
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ART! See why I'm using a Autolite / Motorcraft.
Yep, that's why I'm looking for one myself.. :D
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You can move the idle speed screw a LITTLE bit, just not much. Any more and you start looking to drill holes in butterflies to let more air pass. Or rig like I've done before-use like V-8 PCV valve with bigger opening to let more air butt or aquarium air valves for aquarium air pumps, run vacuum line and then through air valve, then you have a variable air leak you can easily tune with.
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left the 7.5 power valve in it but went to 31 squirter and 59 jets (two sizes up from 57). flat spot didnt go away but got better. once hot it no longer has a dead flat spot but more of spot where it pulls a little weak then recovers. this is a check ball accelerator pump vs the newer rubber plug pump. id like to try the newer style rubber plug if i can find a center hung bowl that has this style in my pile of holley parts. not sure if it will make much difference though.
pretty sure there is just an issue getting off idle circuit to main circuit. don't think i have a power valve issue, idle to WOT is fine, just transition under light throttle is weak. stock jetting for this carb is 61. since going to 59s improved it i think i should probably keep going and see what happens. problem is i dont have any higher jets than 59 until about 66. gotta try and track some down to borrow in case it's the wrong direction to go. making progress though. been putting some miles on it.
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If idle to wide open is fine leave the pump alone and jet richer. You were comparing the usual jetting with other cars, they have open exhaust, you may need more jet since closed exhaust makes carb signal pull less. Go with what your car tells you, often that may fly in the face of what others are doing.
If carb is manual choked with cable you can roughly replicate bigger jet by partially closing choke to increase booster pull, same as increasing jet.
FYI, the outboard idle air feeds in top of carb are bigger in front of all Holleys because of the idle mixture screw in the metering block, the screw sets the restriction there instead of the top air hole. The back barrel holes are small since they are the limits there. Only on 4 corner setting idle carbs do they get bigger like the fronts. Just thought someone has wondered about that in the past.
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He's running a 2 barrel.. ;)
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LOL, I know but........... ....
'Just thought someone has wondered about that in the past. '
Surely you guys don't live in a vacuum. The learning never stops. And can lead to you even figuring out a simple 2 bbl. Look at how many 302 freaks are here as well........
I built 4 corner idle Holleys before they were offered by Holley........ .......you drill the idle air bigger and block the grooves that run front to back in the base plate to sever the two circuits. Drag racing ATX cars liked them better, the response when the secondaries dump open was better.
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Don't live in no vacuum, learn everyday, nothing new about converting to 4 corner idle either. And BTW, metering blocks also have idle feed restriction that can be tuned.. :D
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not sure what you're referring to when you say open exhaust. the threads i found of other people's jetting and power valve selection were on this forum on street cars. open exhaust to me is no muffler. we have the header and were running a single cheap turbo muffler and stock pipe size to the back, think it was a hair under 2". No catalytic converters. next time around i think i will go to a larger diameter exhaust. really looking to go to a better intake but not sure which one to look for. seen offenhauser, spearco, and some others, not sure what the best one to get would be. don't really want to go to 4 barrel just because i have the 2 barrel already working.
couldn't find any 61 jets, going to order some. i've noticed the car is in need a valve seals. either that or the guides are really worn but the motor only has 42k on it. how hard of a job is changing seals on these motors?
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Lower EFI intake is the way to go got mine on E-Gay. Valve seals are easy gonna do mine this week as soon as this frikkin wind stops since I have to do it outside.
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Sure the guides not dead? New motor in no way guarantees tight guides. If seals came in a budget all-in-one rebuild kit then often they cook way too early, often made from crap rubber.
Open exhaust=open header, I figured you were cruising the dirt track 4 cylinder carb threads....... ...no matter, if their tune setups don't work you still dump the pony quick and go your own way. I've never followed any setup ever and had the jetting and other carb parameters be exactly as on the example. Even the area of the country you are in can affect that, I noticed on CV type carbs on my old CBF bike that I could run low restriction foam air filters with no issue but everybody else having hell with carbs not working right, big flat spots, I traced it eventually to geographic area that the user was in, upper north had more trouble, the bike was that sensitive to the CVs being messed with. If case you don't know, CV type carbs are another whole planet, they do not work at all like direct opening type carb (what cars use). Ford made one once, the variable venturi 2 bbl., most people do not understand them and dump them with any trouble at all. I've got one laying around and played with the idea of putting it on a Pinto. It should help the low and mid but probably limit top end, what CVs generally do. Kendig (later the Predator carb) made a big one, 900+ cfm for race cars. We had one on a 440 GTX and the word stump puller was made for that combo. No carb tuning parts needed at all, you adjusted the A/F with a simple cam/ramp adjustment on them.
Some Holley idle feed restrictions are buried in uplegs in the metering block, you can't get to them. They are purposed slightly too big anyway, the true feed restriction is the mixture screw.
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the true feed restriction is the mixture screw.
It's only part of it and a lot of times it needs more, be surprised what happens when you change the hole size..
(http://image.chevyhiperformance.com/f/8961528/p142756_image_large.jpg)
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i always preferred the center pull slide carburetors on the old jap bikes. my vacuum carbs on my yamaha xs650 are a pain and have worn out throttle shafts that make tuning a nightmare. the vacuum carbs on my cb350 work fine though. set the center pull carbs on my sister's cb175 twin years ago and haven't even had to touch them since.
74 pinto wagon, i haven't read if theres a section on valve seals in my pinto manual, forget if its clymer or chilton's. is there a step by step on doing those somewhere? friend has a chevy small block style spring compressor, not sure whats needed for these little motors.
also the efi intake has a 4 barrel type plenum correct? with an odd bolt pattern. how can i adapt (easily) the two barrel to bolt up to it? or do i have to use the tig welder and bridgeport and make my own?
it very well could be guides, this is a stock ford motor, not a rebuild. has 42k original miles, did a lot of sitting over the years. can't really tell how loose guides are without taking springs off though correct?
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might have answered one of my own questions:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-2-3L-2300cc-2-5L-race-Holley-2bbl-carb-adapter-EFI-Mustang-PINTO-Mustang-GT-/370843155771?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5657f97d3b&vxp=mtr
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Yep, you need a spacer but at that price I'll just make my own, those manuals always leave the important stuff out, the Ford manual tells how but it's kinda self explanatory when you pop the valve cover and have the tool. There's different style tools but I like this one since I can use my ratchet in any position that's convenient for space, I'm about to start on mine now.
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b131/GoFastRacer/General%20Stuff/DSCN0001-1.jpg)
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ART! I want one too.(spring compressor)
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ART! I want one too.(spring compressor)
Here ya go Dick!.
http://www.shopfreedomracing.com/Valve-Spring-Compressor-303-334-T88T-6565-BH-U-303-334-U.htm (http://www.shopfreedomracing.com/Valve-Spring-Compressor-303-334-T88T-6565-BH-U-303-334-U.htm)
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The idle feed restriction is actually slightly misnamed, it should be called the OFF idle feed restriction, it regulates fuel to the transfers which should really not be supplying idle fuel. The curb idle or mixture screw cuts into that metered amount to meter it even lower for pure idle alone. As soon as you go to anything above dead idle the bigger pressed in restriction comes into use.
http://books.google.com/books?id=_fTHcnYMyywC&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=holley+carb+idle+feed&source=bl&ots=XFvtN-qh7h&sig=Cp0I6_lPOu09gGG1KVFjqqED4J0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zsR1U7ejGYGRqgbs3YKIDQ&ved=0CGcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=holley%20carb%20idle%20feed&f=false
Look close at the pics and the idle system split that occurs at the mixture screw. Also shows (just barely) the holes you drill in butterflies to keep the transfer slot and butterfly in correct position.
If the carb has a 'reverse' idle system then the transfer and curb idle fuel is the same degree of richness (screw meters air not fuel in that case) unlike the standard system which can be different from each other.
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Here ya go Dick!.
http://www.shopfreedomracing.com/Valve-Spring-Compressor-303-334-T88T-6565-BH-U-303-334-U.htm (http://www.shopfreedomracing.com/Valve-Spring-Compressor-303-334-T88T-6565-BH-U-303-334-U.htm)
ART! Does that tool also work to remove the rocker arms?
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ART! Does that tool also work to remove the rocker arms?
Yes it does both jobs, check out my thread I started yesterday there's a pic.
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ART! Just ordered one. Thanks
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ART! Just ordered one. Thanks
You're quite welcome. ;)
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They do make the job easier.sure beats us two long screwdrivers,one on each side of rocker.when I got mine ten or so years ago it took awhile to find who had one.maybe someone on here lead me there.
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Yeah, I can imagine what a pain it would be with screw drivers, wouldn't be too much fun either if they slipped with your fingers in the road, lol..
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I used to carry a small hammer and screwdriver in the M II there for a while when the 2.3 used to pop rocker arms out. Simple light whack and non-roller rocker out or in in like a second. I got to where I could fix the whole thing and back running in like 3-4 minutes. I disassemble head same way now.
The guides got redone slightly tight and the exhaust built up carbon to stick the valve when cold and valve swelled too quick, problem gone as soon as engine warm. Yanked head for valve freshening up, found the problem and simply running a reamer into the guides by hand only to knock out the carbon fixed it forever.
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still waiting on jets so no tuning has been done as of lately. been driving the car here and there. it puffs smoke at startup while idling and also after a half hour or so trip when you come to rest and idle. so most likely it puffs the whole time. it is using oil. down almost to the add a quart line.
what viscosity oil do you all recommend? i know this is a heavily debated question. i run valvoline 20w-50 race oil in my flat tappet small block chevys in street cars and tow vehicles for the supposed zinc levels. my engine builder doesn't like the valvoline and says he's had it give up on the dyno in new motors. he uses brad penn 20w-50 and i do as well in my race motors.
but back to this little street 2.3 ford that puffs smoke. after reading a little on here seems most in warm temps run 10w-40. wont be cold around here for awhile so just trying to figure out what would be best and what brand. it's overdue for an oil change. i run a fram racing filter on the race motors but i know wix k&n and bosch are supposed to make decent oil filters as well.
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Sounds like valve seals, that's what mine did..
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I ran straight 30 in winter and 40 in summer all the time I ever drove my SOHC in Texas. Do it with later zetecs too now. Conventional had more zinc in it back in the day but not anymore, nothing does now unless buying the dedicated race oil, you'll know by the price, the oil will greatly increase in cost. With Valvoline I believe it is motorcycle only. Like $5+ a qt. Regular racing pretty sure has no zinc now. The price is the key, they pay a penalty to EPA for higher zinc levels.
I go 9K oil changes, the multi-vis wears out the additives fastest, that is what makes a 10 weight cold oil a 40 weight hot. I prefer the single weight, the oil is actually that single weight before additives ever added to it. So an extreme OCI still has fairly thick oil, it does not thin as much.
I snatched an AMC oil filter center fitting to put it in the 2.3 block then used AMC V8 filters (same size as FL1) and with no bypass in them to filter 100%. Worked great.
You really can get away with murder as far as oil weights on almost all motors. Everybody warned me of the VCT issues and not using correct oil, never had any issues at all and 200K miles. Here they start up just a bit slower on coldest day of winter but they always start. I probably give up a small amount of fuel mileage but I don't like thin weights. I have actually cured startup rattling on cars by thickening the oil up even though the conventional wisdom says no. No matter, I have my own wisdom for why it works. People talk about dry starts but it just doesn't happen, the thicker oil does not run out of bearings when it cools down like the multi-vis does especially when the multi-vis is worn out. Ergo, more there at the cold start. Nobody wants to talk about that of course.
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i hear ya. always used straight weight oils until i lost my first flat tappet cam at break in on a 400 sbc. was most likely due to faulty lifters but after that i started doing some reading and chasing the "zinc" oil. zinc and phosphorus is supposed to be what youre after im told. like you said, if its cheap it's not there anymore. a guy on a nova forum used to do lab tests every month and report PPM of all important ingredients. that was a handful of years back and he was down to only valvoline as far as over the counter. guess they are out now as well. brad penn is good stuff but very expensive (just payed $89 for a case for race motor). haven't tried additives in awhile, didnt know which one of those i could trust either.
i guess i should shoot for a straight 40? we've used a lot of 20w-50 or straight 50 in the worn out chevy v8s we drive around with no issue. valvoline sells a "racing" 60 but never tried it.
since parts store 40 weight won't have any zinc or phosphorus what additive should i also buy?
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It's illegal to have oil on the shelf that has Zinc in it, only exception is the Schell Rotella which is for diesel engines, and even that has been cut down to a minimum.
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we used the rotella 15-40 for awhile until the zinc was gone there too. guess you have to depend on additives for flat tappet longevity. is the STP stuff any good? ive read into a few different ones that can be ordered but not sure which if any have the good stuff in them
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Put a Ranger roller cam in it and you'll not need zinc any more. I've used STP since the 50's and never had any problems with it. It has a high zinc content in it (blue can) according to the label on the can.
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I been using off the shelf Castrol GTX for the last 25yrs or so on all my street stuff with flat tappet cams, I got one with 462,000mi and one with 126,000mi and still running strong... Just sayin...
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STP took out the zinc as well. I bought several cans of the last zinc stuff they made. It is illegal as said to sell the zinc, it is the phosphate needed to carry it that has the EPA all in a tizzy. At the last at the parts store I saw an oil that O'Reilly claimed it could special order, Champion I believe. They advertised a lot of zinc, it's sellable with an 'off road use only' label on the can. The Valvoline specialty MOTORCYCLE oil has zinc as well or did, the high price. Motorcycles have to have it as the friction modifiers that replace the zinc commonly mess up motorcycle starter one way clutches and cannot be used. The smaller motorcycle market as well allows the sale of it. Or did anyway.
You got no cams there if flat tappet lasting that long, the big ones die if you don't break in with half the spring needed there. BTDT. We commonly left some of the spring off of them when breaking the big ones in, then put full spring on after done. The 16V engines Ford builds now have no spring pressure, you can push valves down by hand. Why the flat tappet lasts so long now with no resetting valves. You don't need to break in cams there at all even the hi-perf ones. People commonly change cams and don't even change the tappets running against the lobes.
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You got no cams there if flat tappet lasting that long,
Oh really!, Well, my 86 Toy(22R) I bought brand new didn't come with a roller cam, and when I rebuilt the motor in my 73 dually I put a Melling torquer(flat tappet) cam in it, I never said anything about race cams with a gazillion lbs of spring pressure.. And just FYI, I DO KNOW the difference between roller and flat tappet cams....
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Got the valve spring tool and its built like its for use on an 18 wheeler. It'll be around a lot longer than I will. Thanks for the tip Art.
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You're welcome Dick, I thought the same thing too when I got mine, you could compress 500lbs springs with that easy,lol..
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Just joking of course........ .......torque cams are usually pretty small, by no cam I mean anything under .500" lift. My last post concerned flat tappet only, no roller.
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put 61 jets in the carb. this is stock recommended size for the 350 holley. up from the 59s. no change in flat spot. i think ive hit a wall with this particular carb on this intake setup.
i did get an efi intake from another circle track friend. they collect them. whats the best way to plug the injector holes on these? just weld shut? and also which intake gasket should i order to put this intake on?
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I drill them out / tap them / install pipe plugs. That's all.
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If it's never gonna be used for EFI again that's the way to do it..
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The original hole is sized right to run a drill bit up in there suited to the size needed (7/16" bit) for 1/4" pipe taps and use like socket head plugs there. Don't tighten real tight to avoid cracking and seal threads with something. That way you don't have to worry about welded holes warping the head flat. I'd port the plugs and the lump there a bit to smooth them into port.
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If head is oval port use oval port gasket, or any before 1982. If D port then '82 Fairmont or others later can work.
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ok, simple enough. i was considering porting some of that lump off there but didnt know if it would hurt anything. this motor is a 1980 so i would assume its the oval port right?
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Yup.
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Back again, haven't been on here in awhile. I finally got around to putting on the efi intake on the 1980. Bought the nice billet cnc machined adapter to make it easy. Installation of the new intake was a challenge getting the lower bolts in and out without removing the distributor but i managed. I didn't realize until I went to put it in but the upper most bolt towards the front of the car doesn't match up (newer intake on older head). I'm sure the rest of you that have done this swap have run into this. if i hadn't got so far i would have considered drilling a new hole in the intake but i left it as is. I figured missing just one won't cause a leak. Actually when i removed the old intake that bolt and the one next to it had fallen out long before and were gone.
The car fired up and has a slightly different idle tone too it now but the flat spot is back and is worse. The car makes plenty of power and is actually pretty quick with the new intake on it. It just seems to be a really bad transition flat spot from idle circuit to main circuit. I'm convinced that something is wrong with the power valve circuit, maybe something i didn't get out after drilling for the racer walsh restrictors, maybe something wrong in idle circuit, the main circuit seems to be spot on. The carb makes no response to power valve change. It does get better when warm but now it doesn't go away when hot. I'm going to look for a fresh 7448 from some of my circle track friends and start over. already have the restrictors but I wan't to try one without them first and see what the difference is. Then I will see what I can figure out. I am convinced this is purely a carburetor issue at this point so I will see what I can find out once I can get my hands on another carb. The one on it was an old swap meet carb so who knows what its history is.
-ian
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I would try it out with no power valve. Take an old one and remove the rubber, then melt solder into it. I've done them both way. You may need to put bigger jets in.
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up to 61s on the jets, that's stock jetting for 7448, i have a power valve blocker, i'll have to give it a try. Yes it will probably need more jet to compensate, i think i have some low to mid 60s i can try. also this intake is unported and i have the ACE adapter off ebay. after reading through other posts some suggest porting with the short adapter. This car is just a cruiser and were not looking to eek every bit of power out of it we can get, just smooth throttle response all through the range would be nice. I plugged the injector holes with brass plugs. My drilling and tapping job wasn't a precision job but they are tight and sealed up.
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You block the power valve while checking the main jet and NOT UNDER HEAVY POWER, you can fry motor doing it. The valve should not be opening when main system (boosters) start up, rather, somewhat after that. If you are getting the flat spot while driving around like normal cruise then problem is NOT the valve. Could be trash in a main well from the drilling or the brass insert in too far to make a restriction. Going to the full size restriction of a dead stock carb should not work either, they restrict them for a reason, it being too big for a four cylinder. They are usually up around .040"-.055", these will like around .020"+.
You end up with two main jet choices with a blocked PV, one is good driveability at cruise and low demand throttle and the other is high demand full throttle power. There will be a separate main jet that motor likes for both, then you figure the difference in cross section of the holes and that ends up being the power valve restriction size. The power valve supplies the difference in fuel between low demand and high demand requirements. The jet size the motor likes for full power will be too big for creeping around in slow driving and the motor will be too rich then. Why the system was created to begin with.
Think kickdown on an automatic transmission, power valve comes on about then, the demand for extra load. Maybe a wee bit sooner but not until then, it needs to be closed for clean normal light load driving. Why blocking it to test drive at low load is useful.
If the idle is still set to make the throttle plates go higher in the transfer slots it never will run right, the transfers should be barely showing like maybe .020" of the slot and no more when carb is pulled to look at that after normal idling speed has been set. Too high in slot makes for too rich an idle, you cut back on the screws to cure that but then when you increase throttle no fuel left for transition load because the high slot condition has used it already. So, too rich, then instantly too lean right around normal cruising spot. The entire lower rpm/load workings of the carb are set up based on that idle transfer slot relationship and many mess up there.
If an old carb can always have some sort of blockage in a metering block well. A few of the carbs they put idle feed restrictions on the tip of a long tube that presses into the well, if those block up the tip almost impossible to clean.
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My take on porting with the one inch adapter is that it is to help make up for the lack of depth, the short distance there makes for issues with fuel distribution, the throttle plate angles interfere with mixture getting to the other side of them since all fuel comes from one side of a 2 bbl. non-progressive carb until the boosters start up.
Just me though and I can't back it up............ ............LO L
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that method of figuring out the power valve restriction size makes sense. as for the idle transfer slot setting, i'll check it again, but ive tried it from as low of an idle setting to stay running all the way up to too fast to comfortably stop the car while in gear. no change in flat spot. this is without adjusting the idle mixtures screws. i tried adjusting them as well without changing the idle speed screw. I tend to try and leave the idle mix screws at or close to the baseline 1 1/2 turns out. guess i should try setting them with a vacuum gauge.
one of the racer walsh restrictors is pressed in farther than the other. There could certainly be a blockage somehwere in the wells like you said. Im afraid that may be the problem whether the drilling caused it or something else. im going to see if i can remove the restrictors and find anything.
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The only way you'll know is to set the butterflies dead correct on the slots and then put carb back on and see where you are idle speed wise then work from there. How I start with any carb. I use 1 1/2 as a starting point on idle screws too. Where they end up can tell you if idle feed restriction is close or not. Both need to have an effect, if one does and one doesn't then indicator of something wrong in that circuit.
What speed is engine comfortable at idle wise, i.e., what cam in car, affects that greatly. OEM around 700-800, longer cam will be higher (up to 1500) and how those slots begin to cause trouble, the idle has to be set too high and gets into them.
Power valve vacuum value is usually one half what idle vacuum is, a good starting point.
Assuming accelerator pump is working well.......... ..