PINTO CAR CLUB of AMERICA
Welcome to FordPinto.com, The home of the PCCA => General Help- Ask the Experts... => Topic started by: AndrewG on November 15, 2014, 11:56:14 PM
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I've been reading about the problems caused by the addition of ethanol in modern gasoline. Seems that it is recommended to replace rubber parts that come in contact with gas, such as fuel pump diaphragms and carburetor parts, as the ethanol will destroy them and cause a fire hazard.
Does anyone have recommendation s regarding this and which parts to be replaced on the 1980 pinto 2.3 L.
Thanks
AJ
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Haven't had any problems so far with that skunk pi$$, I don't think there's a problem unless the system is drained then the rubber dries up and gets brittle..
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From what I have read and heard, the rubber just needs to be in contact with ethanol to be damaged and potentially cause a fire.
Here is one video discussing this issue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kud3AZFcP6w&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Much, much worse if the car sits with no driving for long periods. If used day to day it is pretty much transparent until a long passage of time. The damage to pot metal like what carbs are made of easily as bad as to rubber. When car sits the ethanol then phase separates from the gasoline portion by drawing water and the water is what is necessary to produce the byproduct acids that cause much of the trouble. Drive car commonly to keep fuel fresh and much less trouble. These are early cars with vented systems and not sealed nearly so well as today's computer cars which can sit for longer periods without the fuel separating.
You can clean parts with ethanol laced fuel outside on a humid day and draw water into the mix in less than 5 minutes, the fuel then turns cloudy, the mark of separated fuel.
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Sh!t, leave a car sit for 2 days and the thing don't want to start with dam skunk p*ss... ::) >:(
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Ethanol laced fuel is somewhat harder to light off when stone cold motor. Why we always lit the pro stocker off with gas squirted into intake when running alcohol in it.
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Yep, did the same when we ran the Altered started a lot quicker. We have one station here that has ethanol free gas but it's 91 and they get $4.16 a gal, bummer... :( :(
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I'm pretty lucky here. I have access to 3 stations, on my side of town, selling ethanol free gas. One has high test, but damn, it's close to $6 a gallon right now. Been running half and half for daily driving, and just high test on track days. It's even more expensive at pir. I was just shocked that it was still fairly easy to get in this prius driving hippyfest I live in.
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WOW $6.00 a gal that sucks, you can buy Avgas cheaper,lol..
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WOW $6.00 a gal that sucks, you can buy Avgas cheaper,lol..
We have horrible fuel taxes here. No sales tax, so they get it where they can.
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Wow! That is some price! I run ethanol-free regular in both my Pinto and my Rolls-Royce. It is currently selling for $2.99 per gallon here. Filled up the truck with regular gas from Sheetz in Fishersville VA today (10% ethanol) which was $2.49.
Dwayne :)
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Regular pump gas is about $3.25 all around town. Super is about .25 more. And that's waaay down.
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We have horrible fuel taxes here. No sales tax, so they get it where they can.
Dam gubment rip off.. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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Regular pump gas is about $3.25 all around town. Super is about .25 more. And that's waaay down.
And that's still high, here it's $2.99 but in Phoenix it's down to $2.65..
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Dam gubment rip off.. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Now they're pushing a shadey-butt street repair tax too.
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Now they're pushing a shadey-butt street repair tax too.
You know somebody is lining their pockets, greedy basturds..
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$2.51 in NW Arkansas.
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OK, thanks for all those gas price updates...... :o
Getting back to the original point of this post, anyone have any problems with fuel pumps and carbs as a result of using gas with ethanol. I don't have access to ethanol free gas here, so I'm wondering if I should be updating my carb and fuel pump to avoid problems.
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No problems in any of my vehicles but I don't let them go dry either.
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Aside from the corrosive nature of Blended Gas/Ethanol on metal pieces, There is a real danger of using ethanol fuel even at 10% to gasoline ratio. The original fuel hoses ( rubber) were never designed for any ethanol exposure . Those Hoses were a Nitrile rubber compound and subsequent exposure to any ethanol or even that Bastard brew with MTBE caused fuel leaks everywhere that a clamp was used. In summation your rubber components must be made of a Fluoroelastome r based rubber blend to fight off the degradation and rot of hoses and gaskets. On the Hose front , if you want to stay ahead of the EPA and the CARB Nazis , buy Gates "Barricade" hose for fuel leakage or Permeation ( New vapor leakage laws) and buy the Correct hose for either EFI or Carbureted use. Fuel filler neck issues can crop up too. Look for the SAE J30R9 marking as the minimum standard, and SAE J30R14T1 for the latest permeation for vapors. Do not ignore this, as a vapor leak can set the car on fire in an enclosed space with mortal results for property and life. When the EPA goes to 15 % Ethanol , this whole circus will begin again with older cars.
Carbon footprint , your latest boondoggle and the means to get you on the train or E car for transit
Pintosopher, Fuelish Warrior and Bartender for the masses of "Drivers"
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What are you going to update to??? I have not seen any pump advertised as for ethanol, they will use whatever rubber diaphragms around they have as the pump for an old car is not intended for long use anyway, the way new parts are now. Carb? Maybe needle, haven't seen any ethanol pump diaphragms yet but then haven't looked hard either. The normal parts will run for a good while as long as vehicle does not SIT, the bug-a-boo there.
10% ethanol can run as high as 20% in the real world if you measure it, why your mileage goes all over the map now. The dealers here check all cars for that percentage to make you pay for any too high to void warranty. It happens all the time. If they go to 15% you can count on some stations having 25% as the ethanol component is cheaper than gas now and they purposely mix in more to lower your mileage to make you buy more gas.
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.....There is a real danger of using ethanol fuel even at 10% to gasoline ratio. The original fuel hoses ( rubber) were never designed for any ethanol exposure . In summation your rubber components must be made of a Fluoroelastome r based rubber blend to fight off the degradation and rot of hoses and gaskets. Look for the SAE J30R9 marking as the minimum standard, and SAE J30R14T1 for the latest permeation for vapors. Do not ignore this, as a vapor leak can set the car on fire in an enclosed space with mortal results for property and life.
pintosopher,
Thanks for the detailed info and confirmation. I thought there might be some danger after reading up on this and watching some videos.
.....What are you going to update to??? I have not seen any pump advertised as for ethanol, they will use whatever rubber diaphragms around.......
amc49,
Watch the video I posted earlier. They discuss replacement parts for fuel pumps that are designed for Ethanol. (Below is a link to a video discussing carburetors and where to purchase parts that can handle Ethanol).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3YoHOodWHc&list=PLcAFCEDZU39zRJldKabwzpvz30WlbXZ72 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3YoHOodWHc&list=PLcAFCEDZU39zRJldKabwzpvz30WlbXZ72)
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So I watched the video. What a joke! Like an episode of Saturday Night Live. Leno being taken to the cleaners if he truly believes this stuff.
I have never ever seen steel particles stuck to a needle in 40 years of carb building by the hundreds. Most particles in a carb are like dirt or aluminum oxide or sand particles. MANY needles are spring clipped and they couldn't spin if they tried to. Many needles have stainless bodies and will never magnetize, even so first time I've ever heard that one. The needles will move around but enough to magnetize? Having trouble with that one, could find no evidence on the web of it either.
I have bought carb kits by the hundreds as well and some of the cheapest crap Asian made and never once ran into a needle that had an off center tip. Maybe just dumb luck huh? Lots of 4 cylinder inline four bikes and 4X the chance of it too.
The part about the little spring bumper tip on the needle and the last that float does not now move as far, nope, not even, spring tipped needles MUST move further to open but then the discussion also does not mention the fact that the compared pics of float drop there have different needle tips, one is dead flat instead of pointed and they seem to be saying that is better. No again, if off center tips are bad like earlier in the vid then flat ones are too, pointed tips are self centering and the flat is not and every time closing can close off center based on how much side clearance the body of the needle has to the bore. Not only that, flat tips have more seal area but the unit loading is lower for that and they can leak easier. Why do you think engine valves like intake or exhaust are cut at 45 degrees and a narrow seat there? Think about it. For self centering and high unit loading.
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More. The vapor causing fire issue has ALWAYS been present on any cars before emission years ('72 or so) when they truly began to seal the fuel systems. Even then the early '70s and 80s ones still leak vapor if the car heats up say in hot garage. Hopefully carbon canister catches that but if saturated no way. It comes right out the vent there.
Ethanol brings more trouble to the table but not not that much more except like I said, if the car sits. It by itself is no reason to suddenly start worrying about fire unless you already have the issue to begin with. Modern pressurized FI brings 100X the fire dangers that ethanol does. No such thing as a small leak there or flamethrower. Why you see so many more cars burned on the side of the road in the last 20 years. Almost all will be FI cars.
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So I watched the video. What a joke! Like an episode of Saturday Night Live. Leno being taken to the cleaners if he truly believes this stuff.
I have never ever seen steel particles stuck to a needle in 40 years of carb building by the hundreds. Most particles in a carb are like dirt or aluminum oxide or sand particles. MANY needles are spring clipped and they couldn't spin if they tried to.
I have bought carb kits by the hundreds as well and some of the cheapest crap Asian made and never once ran into a needle that had an off center tip. Maybe just dumb luck huh? Lots of 4 cylinder inline four bikes and 4X the chance of it too.
The part about the little spring bumper tip on the needle and the last that float does not now move as far, nope, not even, spring tipped needles MUST move further to open but then the discussion also does not mention the fact that the compared pics of float drop there have different needle tips, one is dead flat instead of pointed and they seem to be saying that is better. No again, if off center tips are bad like earlier in the vid then flat ones are too, pointed tips are self centering and the flat is not and every time closing can close off center based on how much side clearance the body of the needle has to the bore. Not only that, flat tips have more seal area but the unit loading is lower for that and they can leak easier. Why do you think engine valves like intake or exhaust are cut at 45 degrees and a narrow seat there? Think about it. For self centering and high unit loading.
SaterySo I watched the video. What a joke! Like an episode of Saturday Night Live. Leno being taken to the cleaners if he truly believes this stuff.
I have never ever seen steel particles stuck to a needle in 40 years of carb building by the hundreds. Most particles in a carb are like dirt or aluminum oxide or sand particles. MANY needles are spring clipped and they couldn't spin if they tried to.
I have bought carb kits by the hundreds as well and some of the cheapest crap Asian made and never once ran into a needle that had an off center tip. Maybe just dumb luck huh? Lots of 4 cylinder inline four bikes and 4X the chance of it too.
The part about the little spring bumper tip on the needle and the last that float does not now move as far, nope, not even, spring tipped needles MUST move further to open but then the discussion also does not mention the fact that the compared pics of float drop there have different needle tips, one is dead flat instead of pointed and they seem to be saying that is better. No again, if off center tips are bad like earlier in the vid then flat ones are too, pointed tips are self centering and the flat is not and every time closing can close off center based on how much side clearance the body of the needle has to the bore. Not only that, flat tips have more seal area but the unit loading is lower for that and they can leak easier. Why do you think engine valves like intake or exhaust are cut at 45 degrees and a narrow seat there? Think about it. For self centering and high unit loadin
Saturday night live BS. I love it!!!! Truer words were never spoken. I looked for Daytona Parts on the net and still haven't found it. Just more BS from the land of fruit and nuts. Hope someone finds Daytona Parts cause it sounded great, but then so did cars that run on water and 100 mpg carbs.
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Here's the link to Daytona Parts:
http://www.daytonaparts.com
Notice they state "Ethanol Resistant Parts" right on the home page.
Maybe it's all BS. Let me know what you guys think.
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Yes, they do and then brag about the aluminum body of the super trick needle/seat idea they have there or simply the industry design merely inverted. Aluminum CORRODES in ethanol once enough moisture hits it, and why don't they make them out of stainless and then last forever? Cheap company is why. The inverted needle seat they show there will flow LESS than the OEM type will and I could care less who thinks otherwise. And control the fuel level? Only the size of the hole does that, the graph they give has all these points made up by them and no real world proof of that at all, in short laughable. The first baseline they give of ideal fuel air across the range is impossible in a dead straight line, A/F ratio does not work in a straight line and not evenly remotely tied to the real world there. Making the rest of the graph a child's pipe dream. I like the idea of one 'universal' 1 bbl.carb to fit every engine from the '30s to now too, the visions of a madman. Making a carb have an adjustable main jet does NOT qualify it to be able to run on every engine out there. Not nearly. That they would claim that tells me all I need to know about the company.......
I personally having seen the website wouldn't buy spit from those people.
Carb made of zinc/aluminum alloy like all others, it will corrode parts just as fast. The most damage I've found in my own personal stuff was in carb metal itself rather than rubber parts if they sit, FYI. Under the varnish you begin to find weird corrosion like you've never seen before. It gets worse down low where the water droplets accumulate from the ethanol pulling water out of the air coming in carb vents. Why I say don't worry about the rubber, it may well be the carb body itself that self destructs there, the power valve threaded hole on a 5200 commonly corrodes the threads and seat out of it to not seal. The ethanol in a steel pinto fuel tank will quadruple the rust powder brought into carb as well when the tank walls rust. Meaning filters will fill up like lightning.
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Wait... So the spit isn't ethanol resistant either?!
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I correct for my statement that the needle /seat they showed was flat, the pic in the video was not clear being too small but on the site they show it closer, it IS angled to center the needle tip as well but not at as sharp an angle and the lesser weight of aluminum will not self center as well as the steel needle a with sharper angle. But that didn't stop them from saying it was 'better' at all. More self-bullsh-t.
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My experience with ethanol problems was with small engines. It plays havoc with 2 cycle such as chain saws, leaf blowers, and weed whackers, and the snow blowers have to have their carbs redone every winter. They sell expensive canned ethanol-free gas we might try. The vehicles (dump truck and cars) not so much. I think the seasonal sitting of the small engines have a lot to do with it.
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Here's the link to Daytona Parts:
http://www.daytonaparts.com
Notice they state "Ethanol Resistant Parts" right on the home page.
Maybe it's all BS. Let me know what you guys think.
Thanks for the link. It sounds great. Well done web site. Their price's are more than new carbs are selling for on E-bay.
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What do the people in South America do? Some country's run on very high % of alkie as it is cheaper to make than gasoline. I know in a race car you need a way to light it off on start up. Then after the race we would run gasoline thru the engine to clean the alkie out.
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Well , It would appear that this Thread is about as corrosive as a full tank of ethanol/gas blend left to sit for a year. Since the issue of vapor permeation only applies to OLD lines and digestive tracts, maybe we should ignore all combustible vapor and just disband the Blue Flame club.
I suspect that all of this lunacy was intended to drive up the Price of Taco shells , and to relieve us of more greenbacks. Flatulence rules, Political, or organic, you can't escape the consequences.
You can change your Consumption and take a Beano or two..
Spitting a few lines,
Pintosopher
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I work on plenty of small engines as well, lawn, garden, 2 cycle, 4 cycle. The short passages before the vent to atmosphere is why they mess up so fast, like older cars vented to atmosphere way too easy. A lot of the trouble goes away if you dedicate to running the unit totally out of fuel before storing it for the winter. Emptying tank is not enough, you have to pump the carb clean of fuel by running it. Ethanol in the fuel hardens the flapper valves in diaphragm carbs even faster than regular stale fuel used to. Why most have changed from rubber flappers to mylar or plastic.
The hot and cold of the day pumps water vapor in with air aspiration all day long. Late model PCM controlled cars if truly vapor tight can sit with the fuel for over a year and no phase separation, I've done it. Best to fill the tank close to completely though. Less airspace to bring water then.
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My pressure washer has a B/S and it sat for almost a year, I put Sta-Bil in the gas and filled it to the top, when I dragged it out it fired on the second pull. Now that I have access to non-ethanol gas I been using it and it runs WAYY better..
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On my rider mower which sits outside 100% of the time I keep tank filled and I use soft cheaper thin wall baggies like 3 of them one over the other and strong rubber bands to cinch them tightly around tank neck so the cap breather cannot freely breathe air. Been doing that for 3 years now and it always starts almost instantly after the winter sit as I unsnap the air filter lid and shoot a short shot of starting fluid in before that first crank. Engine itself is kept relatively protected by covering with garbage bags and cinching them down to stay in place. That mower has been running now for pretty close to 24 years, at 16 I rebuilt the engine. Still runs perfect.
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Yeah, sitting outside definitely want to cover it up, mine sits in the shop so it's not exposed to the elements, as long as I keep it full I don't have issues..
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OK, thanks for all those gas price updates...... :o
Getting back to the original point of this post, anyone have any problems with fuel pumps and carbs as a result of using gas with ethanol. I don't have access to ethanol free gas here, so I'm wondering if I should be updating my carb and fuel pump to avoid problems.
I have been using E10 in my carbureted Mustang since I got it in '05 because E10 is all that's available out of a pump in CA (by law...even VP StreetBlaze 100 is E10 at $8.00/gal). The biggest problem I have is with the carburetor (Holley 650) drying out when the car sits for a long time. The floats stick open and the bowl gaskets weep for a while afterward. The soft parts were all new in 2005. The biggest problem I experience with E10 is a short shelf life even in sealed containers and fuel systems.
The best thing you could likely do to ensure maximum ethanol compatibility would be to replace the fuel pump, replace the soft fuel line with modern alcohol-resistant type, and install new soft parts in the carb.
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Boy howdy does gasoline dry up faster with ethanol in it. Spill some around the lawn mower while fueling and a great amount can be evapped in like 10 seconds. Never saw anything like it.
Are your 'sealed' containers fully sealed? I have used say 10% 2 stroke fuel/oil mix and let it even go over the winter to use the next year and no trouble at all and same with tank of fuel in a car ('98 Contour) that was down well over a year. It instantly started up and ran fine but I don't prefer to do that. I diluted the car tank by filling with fresh fuel as soon as it was up and running. I do generally try to act as if the 10% has a shelf life of say one year. I just let a Focus sit for 6 months while doing other things too, the tank was somewhat open to the environment as the fuel pump came out of the top (I cut a hole under the back seat rather than drop the tank to preserve all the old hose structure there). Half tank of fuel in it and I had covered the open 8 inch hole with foil beaded tight over the hole to lower air aspiration. Fuel was still clear when pump went back in and car started and ran again instantly with no issues. Yet let the fuel sit for ten minutes in the outside air and it separates and water in it. Some funny stuff there.
That's on EFI stuff, I've had fits with it on say 4 cylinder bikes, the floats can stick in as little as two weeks, the carbs just vent way too much. Carbed cars probably do that as well. The small engine stuff does but way too easy to simply rebuild carb on the spot and fixed there. Running them clean out of fuel to not allow the slower drying out seems to be the best thing to do there. Been working fine for me. Letting the fuel bowls dry up slowly on their own is definitely a mistake.
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The sealed containers I refer to are airtight, non-permeable steel cans or EFI fuel systems. Plastic fuel jugs let oxygen right through the sides.
I shut off the fuel and run my bike's carb dry before parking it. No problems in the last 10 years.
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And what I do with the bike as well. Oddly enough all my fuel containers are pretty much plastic and no trouble......???????? Go figure. They are the emission ones though that try to blow out or zoop in the sides so they seal pretty good. Stick them in during the summer and almost caved in flat in winter, put out in sun for an hour and they puff sides back out, I hate them.
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.........The best thing you could likely do to ensure maximum ethanol compatibility would be to replace the fuel pump, replace the soft fuel line with modern alcohol-resistant type, and install new soft parts in the carb.
I think that's what I'll do. Thanks for the advice.
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On a related note - ethanol laced fuels tear the absolute CHIZ out of the plastic pieces in lawnmower and string trimmer fuel related parts. Be sure (too late for some now but....) when you store your equipment for winter that you have run it dry of fuel and emptied it, otherwise you're asking for shortened life. I found this out the hard way.
Chris
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On a related note - ethanol laced fuels tear the absolute CHIZ out of the plastic pieces in lawnmower and string trimmer fuel related parts. Be sure (too late for some now but....) when you store your equipment for winter that you have run it dry of fuel and emptied it, otherwise you're asking for shortened life. I found this out the hard way.
Chris
Eventually, the Power equipment industry will react and manufacture the same plastics used in automotive fuel tanks on newer cars. For now, annual evacuation and replacement of hoses is the drill. We can only hope the new Congress will gut the EPA enough to kill ethanol at more than 10% and maybe stop its use altogether. ::)
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10% will not matter to you, cause you live in the land of fruit and nuts. 50% by 2020. Also heard that Harry Reid is talking about a toll gate on the border to keep you guys from moving to Nevada.
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One of the posters mentioned South America. In Brazil alcohol from sugar cane is widely used to fuel vehicles, as it is plentiful and cheap. The engines in those cars are specially designed to burn both gasoline or alcohol. Because of the tropical climate, the water condensation problem is not a big deal because it does not get cold enough to freeze. I do not know if the formula they use is different from the corn based ethanol we use here.
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'Because of the tropical climate, the water condensation problem is not a big deal because it does not get cold enough to freeze.'
Nope not even. The high humidity is what leads to the water in the fuel to begin with and cold is not the issue nearly so bad as water in the fuel regardless of temperature. The water combined with ethanol which is a weak acid then speeds up corrosion in hot weather. The sitting unused causes it not the cold.
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It is my understanding the biggest problem is ethanol has a tendency to absorb water, and indeed the parts have to be made for ethanol. The reason alcohol has not seen a big use here is in the winter the condensate froze in the fuel lines and the fuel could not get through to the engine. In Brazil, the engines are made to withstand the ethanol, and it's warm so it does not get a chance to freeze. I have had many problems with the ethanol gasoline here, especially in small engines.
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Highly possible, but here in Texas the corrosion issue is a lot more in your face. I've never had it freeze in lines but up north, oh yeah, I assume that would be an issue. Here, simply stirring up the fuel like the way I clean parts will pull water into it in less than five minutes on a humid day and during the summer. A car carb fuel bowl will dry up in say a month as compared to 2 or 3 before with straight gasoline and the rubber parts left behind get quite a bit harder than before. Rock hard actually.
A funny but helpful side effect........ .....having the ethanol in there makes parts cleaned with fuel rinse much drier with water after, the ethanol does not leave behind a slight oily residue like straight gasoline used to. Parts washed so then airdry to bone dry in a couple minutes in the sun. Nice on bigger pieces like valve covers with baffles in them. Oil is removed pretty much 101%.
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My experience with ethanol problems was with small engines. It plays havoc with 2 cycle such as chain saws, leaf blowers, and weed whackers, and the snow blowers have to have their carbs redone every winter. They sell expensive canned ethanol-free gas we might try. The vehicles (dump truck and cars) not so much. I think the seasonal sitting of the small engines have a lot to do with it.
Yep! The small engines suffer the most. Haven't had any problems in the cars but then again id replaced all my parts that have rubber in them since this whole ethanol thing started. I imagine new carb kits and pumps and bulk fuel line are all made with new stuff that is ethanol resistant. With that said, I still prefer to get premium fuel from a station that doesnt put ethanol in their premium. Missouri state law requires 10% ethanol in all gasoline UNDER 91 octane. Most stations put it in the 91 too. I have one station here that advertises no ethanol in their premium. I try to get fuel there...
Ethanol is nasty. It eats rubber, contains less energy (causes more fuel usage) plus its corrosive among other things. The ford dealer told my boss that the ethanol in our fuel does something to the spark plugs that makes them not last as long too. Cant remember what it was tho...